Nice gear-up landing in AZ.

Nice Comanche. I still like to think that once I had the field made (with a long runway), that I'd pull the mixture and get the engine stopped before touchdown to save the engine teardown. But that may just be an armchair quarterback position. When actually faced with it, the order of priorities for things to save is always "Skin, Tin, Ticket".
 
LDJones said:
Nice Comanche. I still like to think that once I had the field made (with a long runway), that I'd pull the mixture and get the engine stopped before touchdown to save the engine teardown. But that may just be an armchair quarterback position. When actually faced with it, the order of priorities for things to save is always "Skin, Tin, Ticket".
Click to expand...

Screw the engine. I'd rather be ready in case of a go-around. Besides, insurance will buy me a shiny new one.

I was leaving from KPHX when it happened. Scottsdale was closed (duh) but they were letting people shoot the ILS for practice which never happens at Scottsdale. If it were me, I would have gone to DVT and done it because it doesn't close the entire airport... especially when it's one of the busiest single runways in the country. but hey, it wasn't me (and I'm glad!) and the guy got out safely.
 
I found the comment " If I don't make it tell my wife I love her" interesting. It was a gear up. I guess I should search if there have been any gear up fatals where the plane landed on a runway.
 
He may have saved the prop/engine by shutting down the engine and clicking the starter to line up horizontal the prop. Belly damage cost is minimal when compared to prop and engine, specially when there is no insurance to call.

José
 
AdamZ said:
I found the comment " If I don't make it tell my wife I love her" interesting. It was a gear up. I guess I should search if there have been any gear up fatals where the plane landed on a runway.
Click to expand...

At least he didn't confess his love for his girlfriend! :mad2:Maybe he was just trying to make brownie points! :D
 
AdamZ said:
I found the comment " If I don't make it tell my wife I love her" interesting. It was a gear up. I guess I should search if there have been any gear up fatals where the plane landed on a runway.
Click to expand...

Perhaps he was joking :rofl:

N747JB said:
Maybe he was just trying to make brownie points! :D
Click to expand...

Or that
 
Last edited:
Z06_Mir said:
Screw the engine. I'd rather be ready in case of a go-around. Besides, insurance will buy me a shiny new one.
Click to expand...

I think they buy a shiny new one and then you have to pay for the difference. Or they find you a used one with similar times.

If your plane is at TBO I don't think they just buy you a brand new motor. I could be wrong.
 
dell30rb said:
I think they buy a shiny new one and then you have to pay for the difference. Or they find you a used one with similar times.

If your plane is at TBO I don't think they just buy you a brand new motor. I could be wrong.
Click to expand...

Yes, they prorate it.
 
Piloto said:
He may have saved the prop/engine by shutting down the engine and clicking the starter to line up horizontal the prop. Belly damage cost is minimal when compared to prop and engine, specially when there is no insurance to call.

José
Click to expand...

I doubt that killing the engine would stop the prop rotation in the slip stream. Most planes you need to practically stall the plane to stop the prop. Not a good thing to try for the first time on final., even with a controllable pitch prop.

Try it some time AT ALTITUDE and see what it takes. Most single engine are not designed for full feather, like a twin. Then see how good you are at bumping the prop to the position you want.
 
BillTIZ said:
I doubt that killing the engine would stop the prop rotation in the slip stream. Most planes you need to practically stall the plane to stop the prop. Not a good thing to try for the first time on final., even with a controllable pitch prop.

Try it some time AT ALTITUDE and see what it takes. Most single engine are not designed for full feather, like a twin. Then see how good you are at bumping the prop to the position you want.
Click to expand...

I try to touchdown almost at stall speed. Even if you knick the prop you would have the sudden shutdown that causes the crank damage.
 
LDJones said:
I try to touchdown almost at stall speed. Even if you knick the prop you would have the sudden shutdown that causes the crank damage.
Click to expand...

Depends on the engine manufacturer and their guidance. I don't recall what Lyc says, but for a Continental, if the damage to the prop requires removal of the prop to repair...ie more than a simple filing down, then you need to tear the engine down.
 
I think I would shut off the fuel at the fuel selector as I crossed the threshold, pull the power back and as it settles, pull the mixture, screw the engine. If it stops, great, if it doesn't great. I just don't want to trade a minor emergency for a major one. ;)
 
Question, and I'm sure this is one of those things there is a "right answer" to that never having flown complex I just don't know: why land gear-up on a runway? If you know you have gear trouble and have to make a full belly-flop in a small plane, why not find a nice piece of grass? It just seems like there would be less damage that way.

So many (mostly smaller) airports seem to have a single runway and parallel taxiway with nice flat grass between them, often with no crossing taxiways. Couldn't you land there, maintain whatever advantages an airport environment gets you in terms of emergency services and mechanics being able to get in, good visual cues for the landing, etc., but with something softer to land on?

What am I missing?
 
It's better to land on a runway than in the grass. The runway is a known surface. It's concrete (or asphalt) and it's uniform. The risk of landing on grass is catching a small bump, rock, animal etc. It also won't keep directional control as neatly as concrete will. Not to mention dry grass if far more flammable than concrete.
 
I can't say I would have done the same thing. Being an inexperienced pilot(<100 hrs) I may have panicked, hopefully not! But I can say that saving the prop, or engine, would be one of the last things on my mind. Need some power for a go around. Although, would a fire be a potential hazard? I guess it would be best to consult the checklist.

Regarding his comment about telling his wife he loved him. In my mind an emergency is an emergency. I probably would have done the same thing.
 
Anybody care to comment what's the deal with the PA-24 gear? How does it differ from the PA-28R gear? I thought Pipers were supposed to fail into the down position, at least the ones which use hydraulic as a medium.
 
LDJones said:
Nice Comanche. I still like to think that once I had the field made (with a long runway), that I'd pull the mixture and get the engine stopped before touchdown to save the engine teardown. But that may just be an armchair quarterback position. When actually faced with it, the order of priorities for things to save is always "Skin, Tin, Ticket".
Click to expand...

If the motor had a lot of hours I might have fire wall it just before touch down.:)
 
hindsight2020 said:
Anybody care to comment what's the deal with the PA-24 gear? How does it differ from the PA-28R gear? I thought Pipers were supposed to fail into the down position, at least the ones which use hydraulic as a medium.
Click to expand...
Both single and twin Comanches have an electric motor that drives the gear. The design is very different from the PA28R and PA32R design.
 
When i got my comanche it came right out of annual. The guy wasn't familar with comanches so about 10 landings later and no landing gear. pops the breaker, reset still pops again....so manual landing gear pulled and it won't come down. We flew around burning off 2 hrs fuel trying to figure out how to get this thing down....The mechanic had not realized there was too much slop in the landing gear transmission and over tightened the thing....

Luckly we started out of desperation jiggling the emergency gear handle back and forth sideways rather than forward and back and it finally released. It had unlatched but it had so much friction that it would not slip off.

So I took the plane to webco 38 miles away and they fixed the landing gear and I got a scolding from FAA asking me how I got the plane from ICT to EWT? and I had to say well I didn't retract the gear on such a short flight and I never exceeded the landing gear speed...they told me that is a no, no, should have asked for a ferry permit. Luckily they were pretty good guys and only wanted me to know my mistake.

BTW- never a single issue since....
 
Last edited:
AdamZ said:
I found the comment " If I don't make it tell my wife I love her" interesting. It was a gear up. I guess I should search if there have been any gear up fatals where the plane landed on a runway.
Click to expand...


Always nice to add a little drama. ;). :lol:
 
Last edited:
LDJones said:
Nice Comanche. I still like to think that once I had the field made (with a long runway), that I'd pull the mixture and get the engine stopped before touchdown to save the engine teardown. But that may just be an armchair quarterback position. When actually faced with it, the order of priorities for things to save is always "Skin, Tin, Ticket".
Click to expand...

With a long runway you can wait until you're over the runway and the landing is "assured" before shutting down. Of course if you've got a 3 blade prop (I have two) there's no possibility of avoiding a prop strike.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Any time the prop touches, it requires a tear down, so firewalling it won't really help the situation much.
Click to expand...

It was said in jest, but if the motor was high time you don't want insurance to pay for a tear down, nothing found, put it back together, inspection. You want them to buy and new crank, case cylinders, etc when the prop hits at full power and blows everything apart.

You already have a claim, might as well have a zero time motor and a zero time prop.:)
 
I would be very interested to know why the manual extension didn't work. I used to fly a 250 and always wondered if it would work as easily as it was supposed to.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
I would be very interested to know why the manual extension didn't work. I used to fly a 250 and always wondered if it would work as easily as it was supposed to.
Click to expand...

Because of all those inexpensive swing gear annuals. Didn't ya know? All that fuel saved! :D

Swing gear ownership...
tumblr_mjbe99xogs1rxahm2o1_500.jpg
 
hindsight2020 said:
Because of all those inexpensive swing gear annuals. Didn't ya know? All that fuel saved! :D

Swing gear ownership...
View attachment 29569
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was always tempted to use the manual system when an annual that called for the bingee replacement box to be checked off was due just to see how it worked. Never did.
 
yakdriver said:
I guess you and I are the only one to notice that. The idea on a gear up is to get it slowed down as much as possible at touch down. A gear up on asphalt really doesn't do much damage..
Click to expand...

And it is cheaper to replace flaps than wing skin.
 
There's a couple of reasons why the gear wont come down during a manual gear extension in a Comanche. One reasons is that the gear could be incorrectly adjusted with the gear set so that the transmission travels to far and is binding at the up limit point. Another cause could be that the spring that lifts the transmission up clear of the shaft and linkage is either missing or broken. Another cause of improper manual gear extension is not slowing down enough ( below 100 mph) to over come the air load and push thru the over center locks. This will normally result in a gear collapse or partial deployment, still resulting in gear collapse. The Comanche landing gear system is very functional and robust, however it needs the proper maintenance and understanding of the theory behind it, just like any other high performance or complex aircraft. Also if landed properly only the fuselage will contact the surface, not the wings, so a flap up landing should eliminate any control surface repairs. And landing on the hard vs. grass should minimize skin fuselage damage. Grass and dirt has a tendency to build up and pack in between lap joint creating more damage, from what I have heard or seen. I will hopefully never have to be put in this situation.
 
Last edited:
comanche pilot said:
There's a couple of reasons why the gear wont come down during a manual gear extension in a Comanche. One reasons is that the gear could be incorrectly adjusted with the gear set so that the transmission travels to far and is binding at the up limit point. Another cause could be that the spring that lifts the transmission up clear of the shaft and linkage is either missing or broken. Another cause of improper manual gear extension is not slowing down enough ( below 100 mph) to over come the air load and push thru the over center locks. This will normally result in a gear collapse or partial deployment, still resulting in gear collapse. The Comanche landing gear system is very functional and robust, however it needs the proper maintenance and understanding of the theory behind it, just like any other high performance or complex aircraft.
Click to expand...


First post......

Welcome to POA..:cheers:
 
AdamZ said:
I found the comment " If I don't make it tell my wife I love her" interesting. It was a gear up. I guess I should search if there have been any gear up fatals where the plane landed on a runway.
Click to expand...

N747JB said:
At least he didn't confess his love for his girlfriend! :mad2:Maybe he was just trying to make brownie points! :D
Click to expand...

remember those miners that were stuck underground for several weeks in south america? one had his wife and girlfriend show up to support him. :yikes:
 
My gear up check list-

Ask the tower if they prefer me to land on a taxiway so I don't clog the airport.

Land with flaps and a normal landing except the gear.

Pull the mixture on short, short final if it's new engine, in my case, screw it.

Announce on the radio my devotion and love for the insurance company.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top