Next Question.

[Dean]

Ok, I hope you all do not get tired of me asking for your in put, but I have another question I would like your feed back on.

Which option would you pick out of the following:

#1,The plane for you with high time engine, low price and you have enough money left over to have the engine rebuilt.
#2, The plane for you, mid time engine (850 hrs), good compressions at annual, but rebuild done over 10 years ago. Priced in mid market range, but leaves you with not enough money for overhaul if things go south.
#3 Same plane with low time engine(less than 200 hrs on a field overhaul by Mike the mechanic) Priced at upper end of market and takes all your budget.
I am leaning towards #1.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

#1,The plane for you with high time engine, low price and you have enough money left over to have the engine rebuilt.

If you spend all you have, you spent too much. For the scenario you describe, option #1 is the best in my opinion.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Yeah, my money goes for 1 as well. 2 would get extra consideration if the overhaul was a top overhauler like Mattituck or Zephyr AND it was obvious from the times recorded at oil changes that the airplane was flown regularly.

 

[Len Lanetti]

I don't understand the difference between "the plane for you" as mentioned in option 1 and 2 and "the perfect" plane as described in option 3.

That aside...I'd go for door number 1.

What are you using as a guideline for the engine overhaul cost.

Len

 

[Michael]

i would go with the one you want most. you will be happiest in the long run that way. If things do go south with the engine, you can always finance the rebuild, becasue you own your dream plane
My choice would be #3
Michael

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I would go for 1 and fly it until you get nervous. Then overhaul it.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I just chose door number two for some of these reasons.

Door #1 meant I would have some down time while the rebuild was done or reman installed. Called the shops I wanted to use and that would have taken six to eight weeks (and many friends have not gotten the plane back when promised). I preferred to be flying and have the time to plan ahead, shop and line up something with the shop I wanted.

Door #3 really wasn't out there for me. Most P-Barons have high time engines or one high and one medium or low. Many didn't have both engines done together or one needed to be redone early. I didn't want to do one engine now and another later.

This plane had good numbers and had been topped with millinium cylinders about 100 hours before we purchased it.

A lot of this depends on what you most want: I wanted a buy and fly. Many folks rather get the higher time engine and get it fixed the way they want; just realize it may take some time. I had several trips scheduled and preferred to be flying.

Best,

Dave

 

[John J]

In the last plane I bought ( a C33 Debonair) the engine was a Reman with 600 hours on it. The airframe was perfect and "no corosion" low time on the airframe as well. I knew I could do the engine. It was a number 2 airplane on you list except the engine had less time and the airframe was perfect. I could fly it right away and have never had any big problems with it in the last 4 years. It was hangered for over 30 years and gohs it was one of those dreams that we all look for. The only thing I did was to update the nav gear and the best part the previous owner had laid the foundation and money to make it easy. I looked for a plane for over 1.5 years while flying another great plane that was a number 1.

Dean I really enjoy your questions for it gets us all to think of what is right for each of us in planes.

John

 

[Dean]

This may help, all the planes are Cherokee 180's with similar avionics. P&I are all about the same, rated 8/10. Prices range from 33K for #1 69 model, 46K for #2 66 model and 53K for #3 69 model.

 

[wsuffa]

DOor #1.

You want to break in the engine yourself. You don't know who/how it was abused before you got it.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

This may help, all the planes are Cherokee 180's with similar avionics. P&I are all about the same, rated 8/10. Prices range from 33K for #1 69 model, 46K for #2 66 model and 53K for #3 69 model.

The asking price for door #2 values an overhaul at $26k (mid-time engine versus run-out engine and $13k price difference). Wrong answer. All other things considered, go with door #1.

 

[PoAdeleted5]

deleted.

 

[dogman]

I think it all depends how much money you have set aside to buy with. From my experience it will cost you more to to rebuild and restore and update your self than it will to buy it with the updates and engine overhaul.

One thing that has happened to me is the go through all the right steps buy and then find a GOOD Mech then he finds all your problems and then you spend all your money making airworthy again

I will PM you a mech. name and number, he is a little ways from (3LF) you but he is GOOD not cheap but GOOD he is 200 miles from me and he is one I can really depend on to check things and help you to NOT GET SCREWED. The plane you get is only as good as the Pre-Buy/Annual you have done before buying. There are many people out there who cannot afford to properly maintain. Then will sell it to you. Get a hold of the A/P when I send you the number and higher him to do any Pre buy Inspections, He will not disappoint you, because when you find one you really want he will find all kinds of crap wrong with it and then you can walk away or buy it cheap.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Given the parameters you've set, I'd got with #1 without hesitation, with one caveat - you should be intending to keep the plane for at least 400-500 hours to absorb the hit you'll take on buying the new engine. I also concur with Larry that the '69 has some nice improvements over the '66 that are worth some extra bucks.

Jeff

 

[poadeleted20]

#1, especially if I'll need training/check-out in the aircraft -- that stuff's a killer on a new engine, so I'll do it and then overhaul.

 

[Tom-D]

3 Same plane with low time engine(less than 200 hrs on a field overhaul by Mike the mechanic) Priced at upper end of market and takes all your budget.
I am leaning towards #1.

Does it really matter who overhauled it, or does it matter what was done, and what was replaced?

Many engines get signed off by some one other than the wrench that did the work.

I'm just and old mechanic who works at home, and off the tailgate of my truck, I don't own an crank grinder, I don't own a cylinder bore bar, BUT I'll match my overhauls with anyone.

 

[Len Lanetti]

BUT I'll match my overhauls with anyone.

Tom,

And by picking option 1 the prospective owner can also pick you to do the overhaul instead of getting the unknown level of craftsmanship of who ever the previous owner picked (which if they were thinking of selling the aircraft just might have been the lowest bidder).

Len

 

[sere]

High time meaning engine is run out or has how many hours left till TBO?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

#1,The plane for you with high time engine, low price and you have enough money left over to have the engine rebuilt.

Bingo.

#2, The plane for you, mid time engine (850 hrs), good compressions at annual, but rebuild done over 10 years ago. Priced in mid market range, but leaves you with not enough money for overhaul if things go south.

That's a high time engine, since most TBO's are "xxxx or 12 years." Besides, things will go south. Murphy's Law, ya know. Then what? You're sitting on a plane that's costing you money that you won't be able to fly for a while. For that exact reason, before I buy a plane I'm going to make sure I have a line of credit (if not a savings account) available at least as big as the cost of an overhaul, just in case.

#3 The perfect plane with low time engine(less than 200 hrs on a field overhaul by Mike the mechanic) Priced at upper end of market and takes all your budget. I am leaning towards #1.

Depends. Do you know Mike the Mechanic and his work? You might just end up with a really expensive version of #2.

 

[Tom-D]

That's a high time engine,

That's really an engine that flew 85 hours per year, and is at midtime.


The whole attitude of your post reads like the mind set of a tire kicker..

Just My humble opinion.

 

[Graueradler]

To cut the rebuild down time, you can buy a runout core, rebuild it while you are still flying the original. Swap them out and sell the one you took out as a core.

 

[Henning]

Does it really matter who overhauled it,

You bet

or does it matter what was done, and what was replaced?

That as well

Many engines get signed off by some one other than the wrench that did the work.

I'm just and old mechanic who works at home, and off the tailgate of my truck, I don't own an crank grinder, I don't own a cylinder bore bar, BUT I'll match my overhauls with anyone.

You don't need the machines to do an overhaul properly, just the gauges and KNOWLEDGE to check the machine work when it gets back. That and the attention to detail like washing your hands when assembling things and cleaning the parts before assembly... This is all stuff reflected directly on the person doing the overhaul. I don't need a name like Victor or Mattituck, not that I have anything against them, but I do like to know who's in my engines.

 

[Tom-D]

Ok, I hope you all do not get tired of me asking for your in put, but I have another question I would like your feed back on.

Which option would you pick out of the following:

#1,The plane for you with high time engine, low price and you have enough money left over to have the engine rebuilt.
#2, The plane for you, mid time engine (850 hrs), good compressions at annual, but rebuild done over 10 years ago. Priced in mid market range, but leaves you with not enough money for overhaul if things go south.
#3 Same plane with low time engine(less than 200 hrs on a field overhaul by Mike the mechanic) Priced at upper end of market and takes all your budget.
I am leaning towards #1.

Here is my take on your options

#1,The plane for you with high time engine, low price and you have enough money left over to have the engine rebuilt.

you get to spend all your money now, you might not even get it home and be stuck doing a long distance re-build by a mechanic you don't know. You might even get an overhauled engine from the factory with a bad crank in it and get caught in the big AD trap. (BTDT didn't like it)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

#2, The plane for you, mid time engine (850 hrs), good compressions at annual, but rebuild done over 10 years ago. Priced in mid market range, but leaves you with not enough money for overhaul if things go south.

Here is an aircraft/engine that has been flown 85 hours a year average, and is at midtime engine and running well, you still have money left over, start that as an engine overhaul fund and add to it untill TBO is reached.
This is my choise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

#3 Same plane with low time engine(less than 200 hrs on a field overhaul by Mike the mechanic) Priced at upper end of market and takes all your budget.
I am leaning towards #1

Takes all your money now, so does #1, dependant upon who did what on the over haul this could be a good choise, it may be where you'll be after you overhaul the engine in option 1

Give me dependability any day,
midtime, running well, and money to spare, my kind of deal.

 

[bbchien]

Not having Tom's expertise, I always go for #1. That's so I know what then I have.

 

[Tom-D]

Not having Tom's expertise, I always go for #1. That's so I know what then I have.

BUT, Bruce you are not new to building what you want.

I like to go flying now.

By the time he wears out the engine that is in this aircraft he may be ready to move up, then he can sell it as choice #1.

put that selling price with his engine overhaul fund and he can deal cash..

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That's really an engine that flew 85 hours per year, and is at midtime.

Tom,

Not saying that engine won't run for 20 more years... But it may run another 1000 hours as well. According to the time half of the TBO spec, that engine needs to be overhauled in under two years. If it's been consistently flown 85 a year, it'll probably last much longer. But, why plan for the best?

 

[Henning]

High time meaning engine is run out or has how many hours left till TBO?

I consider "High Time" within 15% of TBO (not factoring in age) once they reach TBO, they are "Runnout". This varies with the model as well as I make allowances for some venerable engines like the Lyc O-360, and deductions for notorious engines like the TGIO 541 or GITSO 520s

 

[Dean]

The whole attitude of your post reads like the mind set of a tire kicker..

Just My humble opinion.[/QUOTE]

Not a tire kicker, I just don't have a Trust fund or 6 figure income to support my flying habit. I work hard for MY money and want the most bang for my buck. This will most likely be the last plane I buy and I want to do it right.

 

[bbchien]

Not a tire kicker, I just don't have a Trust fund or 6 figure income to support my flying habit. I work hard for MY money and want the most bang for my buck. This will most likely be the last plane I buy and I want to do it right.

Deano, WEE know you are not a tire kicker . We watched you depart Gaston's. We know the Mrs. has authorized bigger aircraft.

If you look at a good 'ol Skylane (straight legged) - 1958 or so....you'll be amazed how little it takes to keep it. Same range as a a mid 80's Cherokee. If you throttle it back it'll do 120 knots on 9 gph but when you need power it is there. Plus the interior is BIG and comfortable. Plus the lifecycle costs are low. They resell WELL. Insurance is probalby $1200. Not too bad.

We all live within our means. Sometimes that just means more debt than we want. (This IS America....after all).

There' a C182F with 2864 TT, 604 SMOH asking 57K in Oklahoma in 2nd July's TAP; a 1962 182C asking $50K in VA 3400 TT 350 SMOH. There's a 1957 C182A 4400 TT, 1180 TSO, new pan 2 Mark 12Ds, Xponder, com, $41,900; a Florida 1956 182 with 4100 TT, 1120 SMOH 300 hrs on the prop, STOL, KX170b, Valcomm, xponder, Garmin 95XL 37K...you CAN do this.

 

[Henning]

Bingo.



That's a high time engine, since most TBO's are "xxxx or 12 years." Besides, things will go south. Murphy's Law, ya know. Then what? You're sitting on a plane that's costing you money that you won't be able to fly for a while. For that exact reason, before I buy a plane I'm going to make sure I have a line of credit (if not a savings account) available at least as big as the cost of an overhaul, just in case.



Depends. Do you know Mike the Mechanic and his work? You might just end up with a really expensive version of #2.

Ya know, this topic really brings up the advantage to pilot built experimental aircraft..., Maintenance cost. A good experimental to build costs more than you can buy a decent HP single for, but then there are immense long term savings in being able to do your own service and modifications and not need high price work done. Plus you can do things and have much better equipment than is currently available. We won't even get into the designs that just aren't available in production aircraft. Everything that has advanced foils has fixed gear, something wrong with that. The draw back is that in it's own way it's kinda elitist in that you have to know what you're doing, and if you don't, you have to learn, or unless you can find someone you trust and is willing to work on and sign off your plane, you can't play.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Ya know, this topic really brings up the advantage to pilot built experimental aircraft..., Maintenance cost.

For those who are true craftsmen, yes. I would never ever fly in something I built myself though - I don't have the patience. I want to fly NOW!

What are the differences WRT maintenance between building your own and getting your A&P to work on your certified aircraft? What costs more, what's tougher? What does it take to get an A&P?

 

[gismo]

Ya know, this topic really brings up the advantage to pilot built experimental aircraft..., Maintenance cost. A good experimental to build costs more than you can buy a decent HP single for, but then there are immense long term savings in being able to do your own service and modifications and not need high price work done. Plus you can do things and have much better equipment than is currently available. We won't even get into the designs that just aren't available in production aircraft. Everything that has advanced foils has fixed gear, something wrong with that. The draw back is that in it's own way it's kinda elitist in that you have to know what you're doing, and if you don't, you have to learn, or unless you can find someone you trust and is willing to work on and sign off your plane, you can't play.

From what I've seen, only people who want to build rather than fly airplanes actually complete homebuilt airplane projects. While there are several advantages to flying an airplane you've built yourself, the time investment is huge. I suspect that a second job paying you for the time that could be spent on an airplane project would more than cover the difference between the cost of owning/flying a certified and a homebuilt airplane.

 

[Henning]

For those who are true craftsmen, yes. I would never ever fly in something I built myself though - I don't have the patience. I want to fly NOW!

What are the differences WRT maintenance between building your own and getting your A&P to work on your certified aircraft? What costs more, what's tougher? What does it take to get an A&P?

Last I checked for an A&P, you could work for a few years as an unlicensed mechanic and have your boss sign you off for the test, the FSDO can sign you off as well. Then you take your exams. Otherwise, you can also go to a (typically) 2 year school. The exam will cost you between nothing and a couple grand depending on how you go about it.