Newbie who wants to get a private pilot license!

mrjones30

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
Messages
105
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Tampa Bay Area
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Freedom is Flying
Hello, I have been lurking around for a few days now and I decided to write. Becoming a pilot was always a dream of mine. I never wanted to fly a commerical airplane but I want to own a single piston engine airplane. What are the costs overall to keep and maintain an airplane. I do not currently have a license but I'm going to pursue one very soon. I have a BILLION questions but I will start off with this one.

Thank you in advance for all of your advice, it is respected and admired!

RJ
 
Heh Heh Heh...

I don't know, and I don't want to know.

I run a pretty low budget operation for a single owner (having co-owner(s) would help reduce the cost). $20K for the airplane, $300 for the annual condition inspection, $230 or so per month for the hangar, $1300 per year insurance. Maintainance I do my self (Experimental Amateur Built aircraft that I bought used) - most stuff isn't too bad, but I spent $1000 to get all the parts necessary to weld up a new exhaust system. About the same for a used transponder. Gas is 4 to 5 gallons an hour of auto gas at $3.45 per gallon. It's about $6 at the airport. Some people advocate putting $xx per hour away to cover the cost of an engine overhaul after 1500 hours or so, I use the "pay as you go" model. One of these days I should get new fabric / paint - that will be a few thousand (It just looks bad now - still servicable). Dunno what I spent for a second set of tools to keep at the hangar. Lots of little expenses that probably add up that I don't keep track of.

Oh - and welcome to POA!
 
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Some people figure you can not afford to own your own airplane until you fly more than 100 hours or so a year, so if that is accurate, multiply the cost per hour to rent times your 100 hours and you may get a rough idea for those who don't have a point of reference.
For nearly all of us, an airplane is all expenditure and very little or no savings, so be careful about deciding you can save a lot of money by flying to grandma's house or taking and selling aerial photos. Maybe you can, but the conservative approach is to consider it all money spent. Like most boats.
Some get in a club or a partnership to save money.
What you are after is the total amount of money per year out of pocket.
Many people dream of flying. Most are willing to frankly ignore true costs to do so. The bottom line is the amount of money out of your pocket every year so don't get fooled chasing cost/hour or any other thing except one number - the bottom line. That is what comes out of your wife's vacation, your kids' education, your retirement or your credit card balance.
 
Thank you for the responses. Actually, my dream of flying is not going to be stopped by expenses. I just wanted to know how much things cost going in because I have no clue to be honest. I do not have deep pockets but if you really want to do something bad enough you will find a way to make it happen.

I currently reside in Florida, (Tampa Bay area). A few years ago my wife and I vacationed up in Vancouver, British Columbia. We happened to pass by a private airport that said $50 Intro flight. I always wanted to learn how to fly ever since I was a kid, (I'm in my 40's now) so I said why not?
I took the flight and I had the time of my life. It was a bit scary at first because the runway was a bit bumpy but we took off in the clear Vancouver sky, I belive it was in a piper. The instructor told me to take over the controls and I did, (It was one of those "U" shaped steering wheels) I was very cautious in turning and the instructor told me to relax but I was really excited to fly a plane. Long story short, I vowed to own my own airplane someday. So here I am, it was pretty much the same with Scuba Diving and I accomplished it!

I want my training to be complete. I want to learn all there is to learn BEFORE taking lessons. I called around to some various places and they said: "Oh you can finish your training in 3 to 4 weeks" I rather not do that, I want my training to be thorough. So it's going to take some time and in addition I would like to learn from the people on this great site. I'm glad I found the site and I will be on here quite a bit.

Thank you,

MrJ
 
Go hang around at a local, small airport and talk to the people hanging out in the FBO, and the FBO operator. You may be able to bum some rides, and learn about the different airplanes. It is not hard to do, it just takes a little time, discipline, and MONEY, but as you said if you really want to do it you can find a way. Many join flying clubs, or form shared ownership arrangements to make it more "affordable".
 
IMHO---For someone who says he has always wanted to fly, you seem to be awfully starry-eyed at the proposition. I say that because I agree with Anthony... You really need to get a lot more acclimated to the process before you jump in. In other words, get your head out of the clouds before you get your head in the clouds. Here's why...There are three kinds of Flight Schools. The institution type: Kind of like any other university, except there are airplanes, instead of cars, in the parking lot. There's the Independent CFI (instructor) who can be either the answer to your dreams or a money sucking, hotheaded butt-head. And then there is the School at the local airport that can be either an efficiently run, well organized, road to your license or an entity out to do little more than rent airplanes and sell AvGas. Choose wisely, your route, my friend, and you will have a lot of fun and rewarding times getting your license. But beware; there are things to be cautious of, in the process (FWIW).
 
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Starting where you are, with zero experience, I think most on this board would agree that you should get your PPL through a club, FBO and private instructor, or flight school. Some people buy a plane and learn in it - not a bad idea for someone with pilot friends who have spent a lot of time riding in different airplanes, but I think you will be best served by not jumping in to ownership before you have some experience.

Step 1 for you should be to scout local schools, clubs etc..

Here is how you should go about doing this:

http://www.airnav.com/airports/us/FL for a list of airports in florida. Find the ones near you and call them and ask about rates. I'd highly recommend you get a logbook and sign up for an intro flight special with every school that is local to you. After each flight ask the instructor to sign your logbook.

This way you will be able to thoroughly check out the local flight schools - and you'll be logging time towards your private pilot rating.

And pick an instructor or school like you would anything else.. consider both price and service. You don't need to be flying a new plane with a glass panel that rents for $160 an hour. A 20 or 30 year old cessna or piper will do just fine. However you do need to make sure your instructor and the school management is professional and competent, and that you get along with your instructor. Pay a premium for that if necessary.. but don't waste your money on renting a shiny new plane.
 
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IMHO---For someone who says he has always wanted to fly, you seem to be awfully starry-eyed at the proposition. I say that because I agree with Anthony... You really need to get a lot more acclimated to the process before you jump in. In other words, get your head out of the clouds before you get your head in the clouds. Here's why...There are three kinds of Flight Schools. The institution type: Kind of like any other university, except there are airplanes, instead of cars, in the parking lot. There's the Independent CFI (instructor) who can be either the answer to your dreams or a money sucking, hotheaded butt-head. And then there is the School at the local airport that can be either an efficiently run, well organized, road to your license or an entity out to do little more than rent airplanes and sell AvGas. Choose wisely, your route, my friend, and you will have a lot of fun and rewarding times getting your license. But beware; there are things to be cautious of, in the process (FWIW).

Thank you for your post. Everything starts with a dream then desire sets in, If I didn't have those then I wouldn't look for the resources neccesary to fufill them. I believe I mentioned in another post that I have been researching training facilities and they offer a 3 to 4 week course to get your private pilot license, (Including the 40 hour requirement). I can take the time off to do that but I don't want to go that route. I want to FULLY understand what I am learning and why. This part of flying will probably be the most difficult for me because I don't know any pilots. If I knew someone who flys all the time it would be easier because I would just ask him/her where to go. So I will continue to research flying facilities while learning from the books I just ordered, (Thanks for the advice) and this great site!
 
Becoming a pilot was always a dream of mine. I have a BILLION questions.

Here's a good place to start: www.FreeFlyBook.com

It's a free 80-page ebook that will answer all of your questions as well as introduce you to the basic aeronautical concepts that you're going to learn. Welcome to the forum.
 
Starting where you are, with zero experience, I think most on this board would agree that you should get your PPL through a club, FBO and private instructor, or flight school. Some people buy a plane and learn in it - not a bad idea for someone with pilot friends who have spent a lot of time riding in different airplanes, but I think you will be best served by not jumping in to ownership before you have some experience.

Step 1 for you should be to scout local schools, clubs etc..

Here is how you should go about doing this:

http://www.airnav.com/airports/us/FL for a list of airports in florida. Find the ones near you and call them and ask about rates. I'd highly recommend you get a logbook and sign up for an intro flight special with every school that is local to you. After each flight ask the instructor to sign your logbook.

This way you will be able to thoroughly check out the local flight schools - and you'll be logging time towards your private pilot rating.

And pick an instructor or school like you would anything else.. consider both price and service. You don't need to be flying a new plane with a glass panel that rents for $160 an hour. A 20 or 30 year old cessna or piper will do just fine. However you do need to make sure your instructor and the school management is professional and competent, and that you get along with your instructor. Pay a premium for that if necessary.. but don't waste your money on renting a shiny new plane.

Great advice! Thank you!

I have already been calling around my area, (Tampa Bay). Where would you get a log book from?

I always thought the newer the planes the better the facilities but I guess that doesn't matter?
 
I believe I mentioned in another post that I have been researching training facilities and they offer a 3 to 4 week course to get your private pilot license, (Including the 40 hour requirement). I can take the time off to do that but I don't want to go that route. I want to FULLY understand what I am learning and why.

As one who took 23 years to get their PPL from the time I first started flying, I'm all for accelerated courses. I went accelerated for my instrument rating. Immersion training is not a bad thing. The best pilots in the world (military) do it. If you're not going to go that route, I would fly at least twice a week, but more like 3-4. You retain the knowledge better and maintain proficiency from lesson to lesson better, and most importantly, you don't take so long to get the license. Just my $.02 worth.
 
I always thought the newer the planes the better the facilities but I guess that doesn't matter?
I've found that the newer the planes, the more likely they blew their buget and had to go cheap on instructors. I'm sure that's not always the case, but it was for me. I learned on 30 year old Cherokees and couldn't be happier with the quality of training. Newer does not mean better. Its all about the maintenance.
 
At the risk of trademark infringement - "Just do it!"

My journey into aviation was a mid-life crisis thing. After not passing the Air Force eye exam (20/40 in one eye 20/50 in the other, uncorrected.) I wrote off flying even though it had been a life-long dream. Fast forward the few dozen years and my wife and I are scuba diving at Walkers Key on the Bahamas. We walked around the aircraft on the ramp and my wife said, "You ought to look into this. We could fly ourselves out to go diving." When I got back, I found out that for GA, correctable to 20/40 was OK. I studied for the written, got a CFI to endorse me and took the written without ever sitting in a cockpit. The flying part went well and soon I was a Private Pilot.

One day at work a colleague came into my office. "You're a pilot aren't you?" I said yes and she said her next door neighbor wanted to sell his share of a Skyhawk. That night I told my wife, and she said, "You should look into it." After my heart started beating again, I was 1/3 owner.

Now I'm a CFI and still loving it.

I said all that to say this. Get started. Life will play out as it should and you never know how it's going to turn out.
 
After not passing the Air Force eye exam (20/40 in one eye 20/50 in the other, uncorrected.) I wrote off flying even though it had been a life-long dream.
This is a problem that needs a lot more attention. I'm constantly meeting people that always wanted to fly but didn't because someone told them they couldn't if they wore glasses. This myth needs to die a very public death.
 
Keep in mind that you will always be learning when you fly. Every flight is different. As someone who used to own a flight school, here are my words of wisdom.

1. 65 hours is a more realistic number for your private pilot license.
2. Owning your own airplane can be very rewarding, but don't rush into it. There are lots of pitfalls both before and after you buy that you need to be aware of.
3. Ask questions! Most people in aviation will be happy to talk.
4. Where Flight Instructors are involved, find one where your personalities match. You are going to be in a very small space with them.
5. Be flexible. Planes break, weather changes, life happens.
6. If you aren't happy with your instructor, find another one.
7. Get your medical early on.
8. Find a good A&P mechanic and start talking to them while you are looking at airplanes to buy.
9. Look at what planes are on the field where you want to keep it. Similar planes means parts are more readily available.
10. Have Fun!
 
At the risk of trademark infringement - "Just do it!"

My journey into aviation was a mid-life crisis thing. After not passing the Air Force eye exam (20/40 in one eye 20/50 in the other, uncorrected.) I wrote off flying even though it had been a life-long dream. Fast forward the few dozen years and my wife and I are scuba diving at Walkers Key on the Bahamas. We walked around the aircraft on the ramp and my wife said, "You ought to look into this. We could fly ourselves out to go diving." When I got back, I found out that for GA, correctable to 20/40 was OK. I studied for the written, got a CFI to endorse me and took the written without ever sitting in a cockpit. The flying part went well and soon I was a Private Pilot.

One day at work a colleague came into my office. "You're a pilot aren't you?" I said yes and she said her next door neighbor wanted to sell his share of a Skyhawk. That night I told my wife, and she said, "You should look into it." After my heart started beating again, I was 1/3 owner.

Now I'm a CFI and still loving it.

I said all that to say this. Get started. Life will play out as it should and you never know how it's going to turn out.

Congratulations, we have somewhat similar stories. When I was a kid I wanted to join the Air Force right out of High School and become a pilot. The recruiter that I spoke to said you will never make it. There is too much competition just become a aircraft mechanic and be done with it. I didn't join at all, in my mind I told myself why try? I learned later on in life that people can give all kinds of advice but HOW you use it is most important.

I'm in my 40's so I guess I'm starting my midlife crisis now. I better get it out of the way before I forget about it and life just happens. :yesnod:
 
Keep in mind that you will always be learning when you fly. Every flight is different. As someone who used to own a flight school, here are my words of wisdom.

1. 65 hours is a more realistic number for your private pilot license.
2. Owning your own airplane can be very rewarding, but don't rush into it. There are lots of pitfalls both before and after you buy that you need to be aware of.
3. Ask questions! Most people in aviation will be happy to talk.
4. Where Flight Instructors are involved, find one where your personalities match. You are going to be in a very small space with them.
5. Be flexible. Planes break, weather changes, life happens.
6. If you aren't happy with your instructor, find another one.
7. Get your medical early on.
8. Find a good A&P mechanic and start talking to them while you are looking at airplanes to buy.
9. Look at what planes are on the field where you want to keep it. Similar planes means parts are more readily available.
10. Have Fun!

About number 7, I know this might be a question for the medical thread but what exactly is required to pass a medical? I'm in good shape I just have to lose a few pounds.
 
About number 7, I know this might be a question for the medical thread but what exactly is required to pass a medical? I'm in good shape I just have to lose a few pounds.

Rather than risk giving you misinformation, I suggest you start your inquiry with AOPA's medical resources:
http://www.aopa.org/members/pic/medical/index.html


You have to be a member to view this content.
AOPA offers free 6-month membership to prosepective pilots. See ad/link on top of this page in the Learn to Fly section:
http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/index.html
 
At the risk of trademark infringement - "Just do it!"

My journey into aviation was a mid-life crisis thing. After not passing the Air Force eye exam (20/40 in one eye 20/50 in the other, uncorrected.) I wrote off flying even though it had been a life-long dream. Fast forward the few dozen years and my wife and I are scuba diving at Walkers Key on the Bahamas. We walked around the aircraft on the ramp and my wife said, "You ought to look into this. We could fly ourselves out to go diving." When I got back, I found out that for GA, correctable to 20/40 was OK. I studied for the written, got a CFI to endorse me and took the written without ever sitting in a cockpit. The flying part went well and soon I was a Private Pilot.

One day at work a colleague came into my office. "You're a pilot aren't you?" I said yes and she said her next door neighbor wanted to sell his share of a Skyhawk. That night I told my wife, and she said, "You should look into it." After my heart started beating again, I was 1/3 owner.

Now I'm a CFI and still loving it.

I said all that to say this. Get started. Life will play out as it should and you never know how it's going to turn out.

:yeahthat:

Similar story here. Started differently.

Went to local four-year aviation college. Had three jobs to pay for it.

One of the jobs offered a real career shot. Took it. Had made it to Private Pilot but new job required extensive travel. Dropped out at 3 years. Very broke but no debt.

Fast forward a couple years, flying too expensive. Stopped. Again, no debt.

Wife and I ran up considerable debts for really dumb stuff for a few years early in married life. Paid it off over a very long time. Learned true meaning of "lost opportunity costs". ;)

Six years later with a couple fits and starts, I'm renting sporadically, and generally unhappy with the mechanical state of the local rental "beaters" for the price.

I learn at a Christmas party that my dad's neighbor (at that time) was looking for a co-owner of an LLC that owns a 182. A sweet little old 182 with a STOL kit, sexy red paint, and zero squawks and ... later I learned, very clean history and logs.

Co-owners, wives, dad, friends... all conspire to convince me to stop saving money for a rainy day and do some living. ;) (You kinda build habits of not spending after traumatizing yourself with debts early in life.)

Had to rent a beat up 182 and when it went down for MX, the insurance company said the last few hours could be in an even more beat up 182RG (they considered them the same type, which from a flying perspective is laughable) to fill in the minimum 10 hours required to be added to the LLC's insurance.

Fretted, made spreadsheets, figured out how much a worst-case scenario of "engine replacement tomorrow" would hurt, fretted some more... and wife finally said, "What are you waiting for?"

Signed paperwork and haven't regretted it a single minute over the last three years.

Love my co-owners, love the airplane, love being back in avaiation. Couldn't have it any better. Well, a GPS would be nice, but we'll get there. ;)

Flew the most hours in my logbook since the early 90s -- this year. Over 90 hours.

Last year did the hourly cost math. Winced and decided to ignore it. Hahaha. Too many intangibles as pluses of ownership to compare it too closely to local rentals. If I even ever think of selling all I'd have to do is rent a beater and I'd be cured of that thought.

If the co-ownership ever has to disband (everything ends eventually) I'll seriously consider a smaller aircraft and single ownership if I haven't worked hard enough to raise my income to a point where I could stay in a 182. Then I'd hunt for great co-owners again. The right people really make a difference.

Took me a couple years to warm up to going places with the bird. Took it to Arizona once, Vegas once, and two aborted trips to Oshkosh.

Learned that breaking down in North Platte NE just means handing the keys and your credit card to a mechanic and life goes on.

Working on the Instrument Rating now which has been a learning experience far beyond the items in the PTS, especially about oneself.

After that's done, I think a far-flung coastal trip is in order. I have an odd need to see an ocean every so often.

I'll find out how far away a long day's flying gets me in a 182. Kinda want to go see Jay's hotel down on the island. I'd also like to take the aircraft to the Wright Brothers memorial and airport and to Florida at least once. Key West would be nifty.

Also going to do more mountain flying. Love it up there. Different skillset.

Don't know about higher ratings. Maybe for the challenge. We'll see. Tying to push life into a corner doesn't work, I learned. If personal fiscal disaster awaits in aviation, oh well. Have eaten hot dogs and Mac and Cheese and PBJ before. Can do it again. Wife has always been more easy-going about stuff like that than I, so she'd get along too. Plus her career slowly keeps getting better too... Her first long-term management stint in healthcare started last year and she richly deserves it for her many years working her way up.

I joke with her that she's buying the next airplane, a TBM or Pilatus would suffice. ;)
 
I want my training to be complete. I want to learn all there is to learn BEFORE taking lessons. I called around to some various places and they said: "Oh you can finish your training in 3 to 4 weeks" I rather not do that, I want my training to be thorough.
As a fellow newbie who still remembers what it was just a year ago, I'm going to share a few points that highly esteemed members may dispute, but I hope will be useful to you.

#1 Renting and ownership are different worlds. You have to choose eventually. I met people who bought their airplane before completing training. But I'm talking renting here.

#2 Piloting is a perishable skill. In order to be safe, you are committing to flying. In other words, you're going to hemorrage money forver and ever, until you die or quit flying. Only think of it as ongoing expense, not a lump sum.

#3 With absolute minimum flying hours, and with general rental costs, you're going to blow about $8,000 a year minimum. I throw about $14,000 a year on it, because the minimum hours make you spend more time re-training, and I want to get somewhere, not just re-learn what I forgot all the time.

#4 Initial training burns those precious budgeted hours faaaaast. Also, due to re-learning, spreading it out will hit you in the final sum. If you learn in 4 weeks like the school suggested, it's the cheapest overall, because you re-learn less. I'd say, fly 3 times a week, you spend $8k to ticket. Fly 1 time a week and you spend $13k to ticket! I spent 72 hours and $15k, including ground school, supplies, and test fees. This is because I could not take time off work. I reject the notion that accelerated training is not "thorough".

#5 If you cannot throw 8 to 12 thousand a year on this hobby, you need to look into ultralights. I know of many suggestions how to fly cheap. They all involve a big unspoken assumption of great store of experience, a downpayment made in 1980s so to speak. You and I do not have that knowledge, and those well-meaning suggestions do not apply to us. We cannot fly normal airplanes cheap.
 
As a fellow newbie who still remembers what it was just a year ago, I'm going to share a few points that highly esteemed members may dispute, but I hope will be useful to you.

#1 Renting and ownership are different worlds. You have to choose eventually. I met people who bought their airplane before completing training. But I'm talking renting here.

#2 Piloting is a perishable skill. In order to be safe, you are committing to flying. In other words, you're going to hemorrage money forver and ever, until you die or quit flying. Only think of it as ongoing expense, not a lump sum.

#3 With absolute minimum flying hours, and with general rental costs, you're going to blow about $8,000 a year minimum. I throw about $14,000 a year on it, because the minimum hours make you spend more time re-training, and I want to get somewhere, not just re-learn what I forgot all the time.

#4 Initial training burns those precious budgeted hours faaaaast. Also, due to re-learning, spreading it out will hit you in the final sum. If you learn in 4 weeks like the school suggested, it's the cheapest overall, because you re-learn less. I'd say, fly 3 times a week, you spend $8k to ticket. Fly 1 time a week and you spend $13k to ticket! I spent 72 hours and $15k, including ground school, supplies, and test fees. This is because I could not take time off work. I reject the notion that accelerated training is not "thorough".

#5 If you cannot throw 8 to 12 thousand a year on this hobby, you need to look into ultralights. I know of many suggestions how to fly cheap. They all involve a big unspoken assumption of great store of experience, a downpayment made in 1980s so to speak. You and I do not have that knowledge, and those well-meaning suggestions do not apply to us. We cannot fly normal airplanes cheap.

Thank you for your advice,

I budgeted 10k a year on my new hobby. I haven't decided on renting or buying just yet. I have to get my PPL first. I want to fly to different islands with my wife. It will be a lot of fun, I'm looking forward to it.
 
I joined a flying club for $2k down and $200/mo and its $100/hr tach time. Its a great deal for >50 and <150hrs per year. (From a bottom-line view <50 just rent and 150+ just buy). The other advantage of the club is the aircraft are a bit nicer (Archer, Cardinal, and Mooney as opposed to maybe 172 and Cherokee) and its a social club we have an annual plane wash, a banquet, and flyouts about once a month in the warmer months. If you join a club though I recommend a member owned club over FBO run 'clubs.'

<---<^>--->
 
I joined a flying club for $2k down and $200/mo and its $100/hr tach time. Its a great deal for >50 and <150hrs per year. (From a bottom-line view <50 just rent and 150+ just buy). The other advantage of the club is the aircraft are a bit nicer (Archer, Cardinal, and Mooney as opposed to maybe 172 and Cherokee) and its a social club we have an annual plane wash, a banquet, and flyouts about once a month in the warmer months. If you join a club though I recommend a member owned club over FBO run 'clubs.'

<---<^>--->

Do you know of a website that has flying clubs centralized? I can't seem to find any here in Florida and I'm sure there are plenty of clubs here!
 
Never mind I found quite a few. I will do my research now.


Thanks!
 
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