New York East river Crash update

tom. said:
Yes there are. They like to barrel into the pattern with the radio turned down because they can. They taxi fast, take off in front of me when I'm on short final like they're God Almighty, and thunder into the FBO and blather when a student flies the pattern a little wide. They armchair quarterback after watching a constant diet of CNN and Fox and blame everyone else even though most of the aviation accidents we've had locally have involved the "high timers". Know what else? They all violate traffic laws like they mean nothing. Makes me sick.
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:confused: I don't see that many guys with 10,000+hrs doing that. I see a bunch of that with the 400-1000 hrs guys, but not the high timers. By that time they've either been bitten, survived and modified their behavior, or been killed for it. You only get away with it for it for so long.
 
Troy Whistman said:
This is total supposition, and what makes people who knew the instructor upset. Were you there? Did you see the preparations they made? How could you possibly know what the instructor "thought"?

Yes, it could have been lack of planning or poor judgement. But for all we know, there were two very careful and experienced pilots on board who carefully planned the flight and experienced a mechanical issue, jammed control or some other item that left both of them in a damn shame of a pickle -- a pickle any of us could have been in too. I hope, if something ever happens to me, that you all give me that benefit of the doubt.
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Generally speaking from past decades of statistics, there's about a 10% chance that it was non-pilot error. It certainly could have been and we may never know for sure. I think the discussion is focusing on speculation on likely other scenarios of pilot error and more importantly, on ways to avoid those errors or evade them once in their grip.
 
Troy Whistman said:
I hope, if something ever happens to me, that you all give me that benefit of the doubt.
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Well what about this one this last afternoon, a guy in a Malibu departs from Tipton VFR asking for IFR clearance, is told to turn immediately back to land (Violating the ADIZ), and crashes (from the redboard string).

Newspaper
http://wjz.com/topstories/local_story_292160917.html
Audio, listen about 40% of the way through for 30N's call.
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kbwi/KBWI-Oct-19-2006-1930Z.mp3

Let there be no doubt.
He was oblivious to VFR ADIZ procedures, obviously didn't even take the internet course, or if he did didn't understand it, and if he was already in IMC he was super dangerous. And let's not go saying it's the ADIZ's or ATCs fault. They didn't reach out and stall the aircraft.
 
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bbchien said:
Well what about this one this last afternoon, a guy in a Malibu departs from Tipton VFR asking for IFR clearance, is told to turn immediately back to land (Violating the ADIZ), and crashes (from the redboard string).

Newspaper
http://wjz.com/topstories/local_story_292160917.html
Audio, listen about 40% of the way through for 30N's call.
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kbwi/KBWI-Oct-19-2006-1930Z.mp3

Let there be no doubt.
He was oblivious to VFR ADIZ procedures, obviously didn't even take the internet course, or if he did didn't understand it, and if he was already in IMC he was super dangerous. And let's not go saying it's the ADIZ's or ATCs fault. They didn't reach out and stall the aircraft.
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What do they call it, Achemes Razor? The simplest most obvious is most likely correct?
 
Troy Whistman said:
This is total supposition, and what makes people who knew the instructor upset. Were you there? Did you see the preparations they made? How could you possibly know what the instructor "thought"?

Yes, it could have been lack of planning or poor judgement. But for all we know, there were two very careful and experienced pilots on board who carefully planned the flight and experienced a mechanical issue, jammed control or some other item that left both of them in a damn shame of a pickle -- a pickle any of us could have been in too. I hope, if something ever happens to me, that you all give me that benefit of the doubt.
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Truth? If you were in the left or right seat of the plane, I seriously doubt it would change things said because there are MANY OBVIOUS errors made in this accident that should not have been made. This one had a long chain to it. I doubt a mechanical caused this because he had a chute. In a bind with a mechanical, the instinct of a Cirrus trained pilot would be to pull, that's one of the reasons you buy the plane with the chute. If you have a jammed control, as soon as it becomes apparent you're not gonna make the turn, you pull. If you fail to do so, it is still operator error. You just can't escape it in this one.

In this one, there is no letting it slide or benefit of the doubt. They screwed the pooch. Several of my dead friends screwed the pooch as well and paid. That they screwed up isn't a detraction on them as a person, but we in the aviation community have to be able to emotionally seperate ourselves from that defensiveness to look at the truth or at least the overwhelming evidence and learn from it. Denial will just bring repetiton.
 
mikea said:
The New York Times has an excellent graphic to show where the "control failure" happened:

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtml/2006/10/11/nyregion/20061011_CRASH_GRAPHIC.html

It occurred to me that if this one had the fame and got the attention as with JFK, Jr. the cause would be "Excessive turn radius." with the building being an additional factor.
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If he would have used half the space above him, no impact. If he would have just maintained the altitude he entered the corridor with. I don't like the conversation I hear in my brain as it harkens the images of "watch this" "coool".
 
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