New WINGS program

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Robbie Culver (955)
I have been doing Wings annually - while I am disappointed we no longer get the cool little wings, I am impressed that it is now electronic, well-organized, and allows for continual training.

As I am working on my Commercial, and just completing the on-line Basic portion for what would have been my WIngs phase 5, I intend to also do the Advanced and Master this year.

Anyone else do the Wings thing?

Comments? Just curious what others think.
 
I'm a FAASTeam rep, and do the new Wings program as well. More and more content is available.

I've frankly got mixed feeling about how effective it will be. The elimination of the mailed certificates and the pins (at least for now) will probably cause some folks not to bother, as you can get a BFR in far less time than accomplishing a WINGS phase. I fear that we took an already small subset of the pilot population and reduced it further, by requiring a lot of online actions by the users and their instructors, and taking away the external rewards.

If you get your flight phase done and your CFI doesn't use the web site, send me a PM and I can approve your flight phase after reviewing the log entries.

Best wishes,
 
The last one I attended, I was able to check a box and request a printed certificate be mailed. I got it only two weeks later.
 
The safety seminar part of it isn't so bad; as you say, folks who don't register on-line in advance can request a record for later. But the number of folks registered with FAASafety.gov is less than 10% of current airmen, and a lot of the folks who aren't registered are the CFIs who will be giving the flight phases.

For the computer-literate (anybody who reads this), the concept can work very well.
 
I've have participated in WINGS each year since getting my PPL about 7 years ago. I really enjoy the WINGS training and found it to be as revitalizing for camaraderie as it was for flying skills since I participated with the same group of guys/gals every year.

I have yet to dip my toe in the FAASTeam waters so I can’t directly comment. Our first annual event under the new system will be next month.
 
I'll add that if any of you have activities you need validated for wings credit, you can send them to me for validation through the FAASTeam web site at www.faasafety.gov. I'm identified in the system by my email address; timothy.metzinger@metzair.com. You may need to send me proof of the activities (a scan or photo of the logbook entry or completion certificate, etc) via email works as well.
 
TMetzinger said:
I'll add that if any of you have activities you need validated for wings credit, you can send them to me for validation through the FAASTeam web site at www.faasafety.gov. I'm identified in the system by my email address; timothy.metzinger@metzair.com. You may need to send me proof of the activities (a scan or photo of the logbook entry or completion certificate, etc) via email works as well.
Click to expand...

LOL...be careful man, you may get flooded with requests!
 
TMetzinger said:
I'll add that if any of you have activities you need validated for wings credit, you can send them to me for validation through the FAASTeam web site at www.faasafety.gov. I'm identified in the system by my email address; timothy.metzinger@metzair.com. You may need to send me proof of the activities (a scan or photo of the logbook entry or completion certificate, etc) via email works as well.
Click to expand...

Hey Tim, I still don't understand this program. I was at Wings level VII and used to get a new level at SIMCOM each year after completing the sim training (6 hours in Sim and a lot of ground training). This year, they said they couldn't do it. There site seems to have a long tutorial. Is there anything short I can get? Why wouldn't SIMCOM count as it has before?

Thanks,

Dave
 
I did the new Wings last year and hated it.

They wanted more participation so they came up with a system that nobody would want to participate in.

Lessee,
  • The requirements are nearly incomprehensible, even with a video that supposedly explains it. The FAA FSDO safety reps could explain the old system in 30 seconds.
  • No award pin (not a big deal, really)
  • The "tailored to you" training path isn't. I'm not a CFI, not IR, not multi, but go ahead and present with me quiz scenarios for those over and over again. I wonder why I wasn't asked about flying a 747 full of customers.
Keep in mind that I do computers for a living so it ain't the technology that turned me off, but the way the technology was done is very amateurish.


I got to effectively Phase 5 Wings, pretty much getting a new phase every year. I fully intend to go with conventional BFRs from now on.
 
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Dave Siciliano said:
Hey Tim, I still don't understand this program. I was at Wings level VII and used to get a new level at SIMCOM each year after completing the sim training (6 hours in Sim and a lot of ground training). This year, they said they couldn't do it. There site seems to have a long tutorial. Is there anything short I can get? Why wouldn't SIMCOM count as it has before?

Thanks,

Dave
Click to expand...

SIMCOM can count, we just need to map the instruction you got at SIMCOM to the Wings syllabus. There are specific required elements of instruction and folks have to submit their training to the FAA for approval as one of the required elements. The elective elements have a easier time getting approved. So:
  • Do your required ground requirements with online training from the FAAsafety.gov site for the required elements (or in person training if the training is prequalified)..
  • Do your elective ground elements online, or at a safety seminar
  • Do the required air elements with a CFI and submit the training for validation. SIMCOM should count if you did takeoffs and landings, instrument work, and manuevers. An IPC signoff counts for some elements, as do 135 checkrides/proficiency checks.
 
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mikea said:
I did the new Wings last year and hated it.

<snip>

I got to effectively Phase 5 Wings, pretty much getting a new phase every year. I fully intend to go with conventional BFRs from now on.
Click to expand...
If you're doing the seminars only for the ground portion of a Flight Review, a regular Flight Review session would be the better option from a safety perspective.
 
KennyFlys said:
If you're doing the seminars only for the ground portion of a Flight Review, a regular Flight Review session would be the better option from a safety perspective.
Click to expand...

Not a problem.

I usually attend a half dozen or so qualifying "ground session seminars" every year. If my CFI wants to do a another, personalized one, no problem.
 
TMetzinger said:
SIMCOM can count, we just need to map the instruction you got at SIMCOM to the Wings syllabus. There are specific required elements of instruction and folks have to submit their training to the FAA for approval as one of the required elements. The elective elements have a easier time getting approved. So:
  • Do your required ground requirements with online training from the FAAsafety.gov site for the required elements (or in person training if the training is prequalified)..
  • Do your elective ground elements online, or at a safety seminar
  • Do the required air elements with a CFI and submit the training for validation. SIMCOM should count if you did takeoffs and landings, instrument work, and manuevers. An IPC signoff counts for some elements, as do 135 checkrides/proficiency checks.
Click to expand...

I hate to say this, but this takes a lot of time over and above all the training I already do. Time is of the essence.

In the past, SIMCOM went through all of this and opined on the training. Now, you're telling me in addition to four days of school including six hours flying the sim, I have to go over their on line required elements and elective ground elements and match their training to the Wings requirements. Isn't that a lot of ask of folks that are paying a lot of money and spending a lot of time already to attend courses like SIMCOM? I also do an annual flight review and IPC with an instructor in my plane each year.

I also both conduct and attend several other classes a year and just don't know if I can add more. A captain at one of the major airlines told me I was getting more time in the sim than they do and am attending more training.

Best,

Dave
 
I can't disagree - in this case, you should have your SIMCOM CFI sign it off as a BFR.
Edit: I imagine your insurance companies already give you all the perks for your yearly trips to SIMCOM.
 
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There's one insurance company right now that considers these courses as part of an "accident forgiveness" program. I'm sure there's benefit in other programs. I know some insurance companies require recurrent training for continued coverage.
 
Well, like I said - mixed feelings.

I am lucky in that I have a pair of savvy CFII's who help me with the online signoffs - one is a FAAST team member and knows I attend the seminars and I send him the ASF cert's when applicable. The other I fly with regularly and we do the required tasks to meet the items in the list.

For me, I enjoy this - gives me a set of things to do and allows me to have a goal. I got tired of $100 pancake runs being my sole existence, and as mentioned am working on commercial with an eye to CFI eventually.

But I sure do understand anyone who finds it a pain in the butt or too complex...
 
OK, I finally got around to watching the "site training video" and registering on the site, and I see I have one credit logged for a FAAST program I attended at Lockheed Martin AFSS in Fort Worth last month.

What I don't see, when I click on the binoculars next to the Basic Knowledge items are any of the ASF programs... there's stuff from the FAA, King, Gleim, but what about the ASF online courses I've taken recently? ASF says they qualify for Wings credit, but none of the programs are listed. How do you get credit for those?
 
TangoWhiskey said:
OK, I finally got around to watching the "site training video" and registering on the site, and I see I have one credit logged for a FAAST program I attended at Lockheed Martin AFSS in Fort Worth last month.

What I don't see, when I click on the binoculars next to the Basic Knowledge items are any of the ASF programs... there's stuff from the FAA, King, Gleim, but what about the ASF online courses I've taken recently? ASF says they qualify for Wings credit, but none of the programs are listed. How do you get credit for those?
Click to expand...

I think they mail you a certificate. I just got one for the live ASF seminar a month or two back.

I STILL think I'll go for standard BFRs and forget the new Wings fiasco.
 
I also need to correct one other thing - the flight portion of the new wings program is based on PTS proficiency, not time. so it's possible to knock out all three portions of a basic wings flight in one hour of flight time if you're proficient. This makes WINGS no more time-consuming than a BFR (which also requires proficiency in the flight portion).
 
955 said:
For me, I enjoy this - gives me a set of things to do and allows me to have a goal. I got tired of $100 pancake runs being my sole existence, and as mentioned am working on commercial with an eye to CFI eventually.
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Very good point -- WINGS provides a structured, recognized means to study and improvement.

Over half the battle in accident prevention is addressing the poor judgment/lack of knowledge chain. If something you saw/heard/read in a WINGS of ASF helps you think through a scenario before the encounter, it is valuable.

Last year I went through the ASF "Snakes in a Planes" lesson.

A week later I took off in a CAP C172 and about 30 feet off the deck a nice big angry wasp flew out of the (notorious) wing root air vent.

I'm allergic to wasps (not bees -- go figure). Flying solo while self-injecting with a yet-to-be-located Epi-pen was not in my proficiency plan for the day.

:eek:

For some reason I thought of that Snakes in a Plane guy and remembered -- "Fly the airplane."

I ignored the wasp (now crawling up the back of my neck), got stabilized, and then reached back and grabbed him and crushed him in my hand before he could sting me (I think he was still dazed from his trip though the vent).

Now -- I certainly knew the phrase "Fly the airplane" and had heard it a bazillion times before, and used it in situations where I needed to remind myself.

But -- can we be reminded too often?

So I learned some valuable lessons:
  • "Fly the Airplane"
  • Keep TWO sectionals and a approach book handy
Next time I had a wasp on board I was on short final. I snatched a sectional, gave him a whap, and touched down nicely.
 
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TMetzinger said:
I'll add that if any of you have activities you need validated for wings credit, you can send them to me for validation through the FAASTeam web site at www.faasafety.gov. I'm identified in the system by my email address; timothy.metzinger@metzair.com. You may need to send me proof of the activities (a scan or photo of the logbook entry or completion certificate, etc) via email works as well.
Click to expand...

And if Tim gets overloaded, I volunteer to help out -- I'm a FAASTeam rep as well.
 
I completed my Wings last weekend, got the nice certificate - but am still wishing they kept the pins.

Oh well - so be it.

I do have a question for the FAAST reps -- since they have three levels now, and I did Basic - can I still do the next level (Advanced) this year or do I have to wait a year?

Working on my commercial and a lot of the requirements tie together well.
 
You can do a level every year - any time you complete a phase your flight review clock is reset. The only limitation is you must do a basic before an advanced, and an advanced before a master.
 
TMetzinger said:
The only limitation is you must do a basic before an advanced, and an advanced before a master.
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True! One important point is that the advanced material can fill 'basic' blocks/requirements, and master material can fill both basic and advanced blocks. And you'll have to do NEW material to fill those blocks at the higher levels (like college credits--you have to do 6 credits per phase, but a "senior" course will satisfy a "freshman" credit... but once you're a senior, you still have to take ANOTHER "senior" course to satisfy the senior credit requirement).
 
Right.

Like I said - can I only do one a year? Translated to english please, not FAA speak.

Example - I did basic.

Can I do advanced this year or not? Don't care about the flight review date.

I do Wings every year - but they are making me not want to do it. The credits are hard to come by, the web site is rotten, and the verbage is navspeak/acronym/gobbledygook.
 
955 said:
Right.

Like I said - can I only do one a year? Translated to english please, not FAA speak.

Example - I did basic.

Can I do advanced this year or not? Don't care about the flight review date.

I do Wings every year - but they are making me not want to do it. The credits are hard to come by, the web site is rotten, and the verbage is navspeak/acronym/gobbledygook.
Click to expand...

What I said.

You can view the video "tutorial" which doesn't explain a damned thing.

Then take the online training "tailored to your needs" and make multiple guesses on the quiz about night carrier landings in a military jet. :mad:
 
Robbie,

There is nothing listed here to indicate that you can only do one program per year. The only listed pre-req for the Advanced or Master phases is successful completion of the previous phase.

This should be easy for you to validate... if you've completed the Basic phase, try to do one of the Knowledge components of the Advanced stage... if it will let you, and give you credit, then you can.
 
What I'm still not clear on is the reason for having multiple levels? Doesn't the basic cover the requirements for currency no matter what your certificate?
 
Yes. The higher levels must be performed to higher PTS standards, as I understand it.
 
ALL levels must be performed to PTS standards - basic level is to Private standards, advanced level to commercial/instrument standards, and master level to ATP standards.

The reasons for having multiple levels are:

To challenge pilots to push to higher standards.
To allow third parties (like insurance companies) to give greater rewards for completing higher phases.

A BASIC phase counts as a flight review, no matter what type of certificate you hold. Rather than do the basic phase over and over, you can do an advanced phase in following years if you wish.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Robbie,

There is nothing listed here to indicate that you can only do one program per year. The only listed pre-req for the Advanced or Master phases is successful completion of the previous phase.

This should be easy for you to validate... if you've completed the Basic phase, try to do one of the Knowledge components of the Advanced stage... if it will let you, and give you credit, then you can.
Click to expand...

You can actually do advanced/master knowledge courses ahead of time, and flight too! What you can't do is get credit for an advanced phase without first completing a basic phase.

You can do all three phases in the same year if you wish.
 
TMetzinger said:
ALL levels must be performed to PTS standards - basic level is to Private standards, advanced level to commercial/instrument standards, and master level to ATP standards.

The reasons for having multiple levels are:

To challenge pilots to push to higher standards.
To allow third parties (like insurance companies) to give greater rewards for completing higher phases.

A BASIC phase counts as a flight review, no matter what type of certificate you hold. Rather than do the basic phase over and over, you can do an advanced phase in following years if you wish.
Click to expand...
Hmmm... That's kind of what I thought. Personally, I don't see the benefit of multiple levels, since each flight should be flown at least to the level of your certificate. And as for getting ground training beyond the "basic" level, I find I do that regardless of the program. Other people's mileage may, of course, vary.
 
Keep in mind that if you have a private certificate, you can fly an advanced phase, but you'll be held to commercial PTS standards.
 
TMetzinger said:
Keep in mind that if you have a private certificate, you can fly an advanced phase, but you'll be held to commercial PTS standards.
Click to expand...

... and if you're earning ratings and certs, they all count.

After I submitted my IA, COMM, CFI and 15 ASF courses I went from Basic to Master in a day.

:happydance:
 
This looks like an interesting upcoming topic from a subject matter expert:

http://faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=19427

Title "Larry Oliver, AFS 430, GPS / WAAS / LNAV / VNAV & LPV Approaches and more!"


Topic Development of GPS and WAAS and the creation of LNAV / VNAV approaches.


Date and Time Monday, May 19, 2008, starting at 7:00 pm


Speaker(s) Larry Oliver


Brief Description Larry Oliver is from the advanced technologies office of FAA Headquarters in Washington, D.C. He was instrumental in the development of GPS and WAAS and the creation of LNAV / VNAV approaches. He is the principle subject expert on topics such as: T-routes, Q-routes, RNP, etc.


Select Number SW1919427


Location of Event American Flyers
16151 Addison Road

Addison, TX 75001
 
Geesh! I'd probably try to go to that, but will be in Greenville weather permitting.

Best,

Dave
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Robbie,

There is nothing listed here to indicate that you can only do one program per year. The only listed pre-req for the Advanced or Master phases is successful completion of the previous phase.

This should be easy for you to validate... if you've completed the Basic phase, try to do one of the Knowledge components of the Advanced stage... if it will let you, and give you credit, then you can.
Click to expand...

Thanks - to all of you! This isn't just confusing me, it appears.

I did the basic phase, and was able to go complete additional knowledge components online. But whew! I am trying to like this new program, and they ain't making it easy!

About to start on my commercial, fly under the foggles as often as I can, and with a CFII regularly - I intend to work on advanced and master just to see what I like/dislike about the process, as much for the constant learning.

I do wish they'd expand the ASF course credits....The Wings knowledge stuff online thereis not nearly as good as ASF's.
 
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