new pilot scenario question

alfadog said:
Semantics. What I gain is the peace of turning down my radio and just enjoying the airplane. That seems like quite a bit to me.
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Only problem is when the sound of another plane running into you interrupts your peace, but that's your choice to make. I choose otherwise.
 
alfadog said:
Semantics. What I gain is the peace of turning down my radio and just enjoying the airplane. That seems like quite a bit to me.
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Not to mention it's hard to get a violation for not following orders, when you aren't listening for any orders.

Like he said, they know where I am, and what direction I'm flying. My job is to not hit another VFR target(or IFR in VMC), their job is traffic separation. I do my job, they do their job and the world spins in greased grooves.

<edit: now it's down to probabilities: Probability formulas make my head hurt but here's my empirical observation. Prob of getting run into by other planes = really, really low. Probability of being diverted from my route = Moderately high. Probability of being involved in a violation of some kind = much higher than any risk from running into something.>
 
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Ron Levy said:
Only problem is when the sound of another plane running into you interrupts your peace, but that's your choice to make. I choose otherwise.
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LOL. Not very likely. I am not interested in taking every modicum of safety. I guess I could wear a helmet while I fly too, might help if I crash land.
 
Ron Levy said:
What if your intention was to go between them (above the D and below the B as the OP was doing) rather than through one or the other?

The ATC Handbook requires controllers providing flight following to an aircraft which will go through D-space to either coordinate the transition with Tower, tell you to avoid the D-space, hand the aircraft off to Tower, or terminate radar service and tell the aircraft to obtain its own coordination through the D-space with Tower. So, you don't need to worry about it -- they'll tell you if you need to do something other than what you're doing.
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That's what should happen. However, don't go INTO the D Space unless you're talking to tower. I've known more than one pilot think that because they were talking to approach that they could enter the D space below it without explicit permission.
 
TMetzinger said:
That's what should happen. However, don't go INTO the D Space unless you're talking to tower. I've known more than one pilot think that because they were talking to approach that they could enter the D space below it without explicit permission.
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It's not required if you're getting flight following. It's the controller's responsibility under those circumstances, not the pilot's. I simply can't imagine demanding that Approach switch me to tower under those circumstances, and thus give up my radar service.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's not required if you're getting flight following. It's the controller's responsibility under those circumstances, not the pilot's. I simply can't imagine demanding that Approach switch me to tower under those circumstances, and thus give up my radar service.
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that's not what I said. I said don't assume that because you are talking to approach that you are free to fly into the class D space.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 
TMetzinger said:
that's not what I said. I said don't assume that because you are talking to approach that you are free to fly into the class D space.
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And I repeat that as long as Approach knows your course and altitude, you don't have to switch to Tower before entering D-space unless Approach says to.
 
Ron Levy said:
And I repeat that as long as Approach knows your course and altitude, you don't have to switch to Tower before entering D-space unless Approach says to.
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What regulation(s) make this explicitly clear? Thanks!
 
register@teamandras.com said:
What regulation(s) make this explicitly clear? Thanks!
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None. The closest I can think of is 91.123, which says you have to do what controllers tell you to do, and leaving the freq without authorization sort of falls under that. If you want, you can always ask to switch if you really want, but switching without coordination is not correct procedure, and there is no need to switch unless Approach says to.

The other end of that is FAA Order 7110.65, which applies to controllers.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
None? That's surprising.
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Perhaps, but if you read 7110.65 and the AIM, and understand how the system works, it really doesn't make sense to switch to Tower unless Approach says to do it. You can certainly ask Approach about coordination if you don't trust the controller, but that wouldn't be my response.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's not required if you're getting flight following. It's the controller's responsibility under those circumstances, not the pilot's. I simply can't imagine demanding that Approach switch me to tower under those circumstances, and thus give up my radar service.
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I cannot see work-load available VFR services from the TRACON being a blanket approval to enter any airspace at all. Here it is from the FAA AIM:

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0302.html

d. VFR Requirements. It is the responsibility of the pilot to ensure that ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to entry into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. The pilot retains this responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories. (See 14 CFR Part 91.)
 
alfadog said:
I cannot see work-load available VFR services from the TRACON being a blanket approval to enter any airspace at all. Here it is from the FAA AIM:

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0302.html

d. VFR Requirements. It is the responsibility of the pilot to ensure that ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to entry into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. The pilot retains this responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories. (See 14 CFR Part 91.)
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...and when you're receiving ATC radar advisories, you're in 2-way communication with the ATC facility providing your air traffic service, which meets the 91.129(c) requirement:
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility ... providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
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Notice the difference in wording between the regulation for D-space and that in 91.131(a) for B-space:
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
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Ron Levy said:
Notice the difference in wording between the regulation for D-space and that in 91.131(a) for B-space:
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And even for Class B, you DO NOT always get clearance from Tower. Generally, only in the surface area and below the next-lowest floor (~2000 AGL). Higher than that, and you get your clearance from Approach, which is also the frequency you'll be getting flight following from.

It's easier to determine because you'll hear the magic words "cleared into Class B." But that's not going to come from Tower unless you're very low.

There are two undocumented altitudes in use for crossing SFO B. 1500 MSL requires talking to SFO tower. 3500 MSL requires talking to NorCal approach. 1500 MSL works only for daytime crossings and calm winds, so we usually talk to approach.

There is a similar situation for crossing Class C. SJC Tower below 2000, NorCal approach above. For this one, you're not likely to hear any magic words about transitions or clearances. And a lot of us cross that Class C to go anywhere south. Especially if you stay far from the extended centerlines, Approach may say nothing at all to you aside from your tail number and the altimeter setting when you first contact them.

The blue and magenta "contact" boxes on the TACs are generally the approach frequencies.
 
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Ron Levy said:
...and when you're receiving ATC radar advisories, you're in 2-way communication with the ATC facility providing your air traffic service, which meets the 91.129(c) requirement:
Notice the difference in wording between the regulation for D-space and that in 91.131(a) for B-space:
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I still don't buy it. I do not think that the TRACON is necessarily providing that service as regards Delta airspace for VFR traffic that is simply receiving advisories. In other words, let us say that you are getting FF beneath a Bravo shelf that has a Delta within it. The Delta is not in the Bravo. You are not in the Bravo. That is the OP's scenario. I think that if you are tooling along and enter the Delta, the fact that the TRACON "knew your heading and altitude" is not going to save you.
 
I don't know the answer either, and it's an interesting question. If you are squawking(discreet) and talking with TRACON/APPR, and they aim you at/into a D which is not a B, then they are on the hook. If you are going to enter a D that is not a B on your own the situation may be different. But - I would hope that TRACON/APPR would either clear you through, or advise you to contact the controlling authority prior.
 
alfadog said:
I still don't buy it. I do not think that the TRACON is necessarily providing that service as regards Delta airspace for VFR traffic that is simply receiving advisories. In other words, let us say that you are getting FF beneath a Bravo shelf that has a Delta within it. The Delta is not in the Bravo. You are not in the Bravo. That is the OP's scenario. I think that if you are tooling along and enter the Delta, the fact that the TRACON "knew your heading and altitude" is not going to save you.
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I've personally had SoCal "clear" me through Palmdale Class D (even though no clearance was required) without handing me off. It happens.

I routinely operate in Moffett Class D while in contact with Palo Alto, and vice-versa. And in San Jose Class C while in contact with Moffett (even halfway across the Class C airspace and above Moffett's ceiling).

You cannot know who is providing the services. For some reason, it's a secret. And if you contact San Jose Tower and then fly into the outer shelf, you'll be busting Class C because they aren't providing services for that airspace.

The solution is to TELL Approach what you're going to do, and let them hand you off if necessary. "BigCity Approach, Bugsmasher 123XY transitioning XYZ Class D, midfield crossing at 2000." Then, you'll either get a "transition approved" (probably with a restriction), a "remain clear," or a handoff.
 
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MAKG1 said:
I've personally had SoCal "clear" me through Palmdale Class D (even though no clearance was required) without handing me off. It happens.

I routinely operate in Moffett Class D while in contact with Palo Alto, and vice-versa. And in San Jose Class C while in contact with Moffett (even halfway across the Class C airspace and above Moffett's ceiling).
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You are talking VFR here?

I did not look up the map for these examples but your previous SFO and SJC examples are different situations than the OP. You are clearly already speaking to the right folks in those cases, i.e. you are dealing with the primary airport and its ATC system.
 
alfadog said:
You are talking VFR here?

I did not look up the map for these examples but your previous SFO and SJC examples are different situations than the OP. You are clearly already speaking to the right folks in those cases, i.e. you are dealing with the primary airport and its ATC system.
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Yup, this is all VFR.

FYI, the "primary airport" frequency for SJC and SFO is the same in between them (135.65). And that's the same frequency you would use for flight following around three class D airspaces in between. Those D airspaces are sometimes difficult to avoid, especially if there is a game going on at Stanford.
 
Ron Levy said:
And I repeat that as long as Approach knows your course and altitude, you don't have to switch to Tower before entering D-space unless Approach says to.
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Well, once upon a time, NY approach put me in Farmingdale's airspace (which was my destination), told me to contact tower. Tower claimed to have no idea I was there and was unhappy I was near his pattern and wanted to bust me. A face to face meeting with the tower controller followed, We reviewed what happened and he made it clear that he owned his airspace and approach had no business putting someone there without coordination. Frankly, i believed the tower controller, he'd already been on the phone to approach to complain and ask for a review of the tapes.

Ever since then, I've been shy about being inside D space unless I'm talking to the tower.
 
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TMetzinger said:
Well, once upon a time, NY approach put me in Farmingdale's airspace (which was my destination), told me to contact tower. Tower claimed to have no idea I was there and was unhappy I was near his pattern and wanted to bust me. A face to face meeting with the tower controller followed, We reviewed what happened and he made it clear that he owned his airspace and approach had no business putting someone there without coordination. Frankly, i believed the tower controller, he'd already been on the phone to approach to complain and ask for a review of the tapes.

Ever since then, I've been shy about being inside D space unless I'm talking to the tower.
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As a newbie, I'm following this thread closely. This seems like an area that would be super clear, but it's not.
 
For the record, I think Ron's right. I think the screw up in my particular experience was ATC. The normal modus operandi of NY approach was to put the airplane in a descent out of the bravo towards farmingdale's airspace, and then cancel services (and thus the "right" to enter farmingdale's D-space) while the airplane was under the B but not yet in the D. That normally leaves the pilot with a minute or two to contact Farmingdale.

In my case, I think approach got so busy at the moment that they didn't cancel my service until I was already in the D space.
 
alfadog said:
I still don't buy it. I do not think that the TRACON is necessarily providing that service as regards Delta airspace for VFR traffic that is simply receiving advisories. In other words, let us say that you are getting FF beneath a Bravo shelf that has a Delta within it. The Delta is not in the Bravo. You are not in the Bravo. That is the OP's scenario. I think that if you are tooling along and enter the Delta, the fact that the TRACON "knew your heading and altitude" is not going to save you.
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You are reading into the regulation more than is there. The B-space regulation specifically requires a clearance from the controller with jurisdiction over that airspace. The D-space regulation requires only 2-way comm with the controller providing your service, and says nothing about jurisdiction -- and the reason it is that way is that the controller providing VFR flight following is required to coordinate with the Tower if you will go through any D-space unless that controller tells you otherwise.
 
TMetzinger said:
Well, once upon a time, NY approach put me in Farmingdale's airspace (which was my destination), told me to contact tower. Tower claimed to have no idea I was there and was unhappy I was near his pattern and wanted to bust me.
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I've had that happen there and at other places, including Frederick MD (FDK). In each case, however, it was the TRACON with whom they ended up being upset, not me, because I'd played by the book and the TRACON had not.
 
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