New pilot jumping all the way in.

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big_luke

Filing Flight Plan
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big_luke
Hello all,
Just have a question regarding if this particular aircraft is a good idea for someone fresh to start training in.

austin.craigslist.org/rvs/4828609489.html

I do have a small amount of time flying rotor wing aircraft, I do know I have a desire to keep flying. But just interested in something more piratical and easy on the wallet.

anyone on here have any experience with Glasair and are they difficult for a new pilot?
 
There are a lot of reasons why that airplane would not be a really good choice for most people starting out in flight training. The fact that it's an Experimental-Amateur Built aircraft, as well as being a tailwheel airplane, create a number of insurance issues. It's also a rather slick design, and may present some additional challenges during training. Finally, if you decide for whatever reason to sell it, the market for a plane like this will be very limited, so you'd probably have to either sell it cheap or sit on it for quite a while until a good offer comes along.

All things considered, I'd suggest just getting started in flight training in whatever the local flight school uses, and when you're well enough along in your training to be pretty sure a) you're going to complete the training and b) you really know what sort of plane you really want to fly for the next few years, then think about buying a plane.
 
I wouldn't want to learn in that airplane knowing what I know. I would look for a used C150, get your rating in that, and if you don't bend it, sell it after for about the same. Then go get your glasair.
 
I think for a new pilot it's not very practical. I'd add that two high time pilot friends off mine got killed in one a couple of years ago. I'd suggest you make sure you don't get into a spin if you are gonna train in a Glasair.
 
If he is going to get one anyway might as well start in one. If he never flies a Cessna the Glasair will be normal not hot.
 
ClimbnSink said:
If he is going to get one anyway might as well start in one. If he never flies a Cessna the Glasair will be normal not hot.
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That is a good point. I would also venture to say that he would prob. be better trained in it if he got his PPL in it than if he were to just get checked out later down the road.

No doubt it will be harder to train in than a 150 though. Hopefully he posts videos we can all watch. ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
There are a lot of reasons why that airplane would not be a really good choice for most people starting out in flight training. The fact that it's an Experimental-Amateur Built aircraft, as well as being a tailwheel airplane, create a number of insurance issues. It's also a rather slick design, and may present some additional challenges during training. Finally, if you decide for whatever reason to sell it, the market for a plane like this will be very limited, so you'd probably have to either sell it cheap or sit on it for quite a while until a good offer comes along.

All things considered, I'd suggest just getting started in flight training in whatever the local flight school uses, and when you're well enough along in your training to be pretty sure a) you're going to complete the training and b) you really know what sort of plane you really want to fly for the next few years, then think about buying a plane.
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As far as insurance, would it make any difference if it fully paid for vs not partly owned by a bank? Like buying a car and having liability only coverage? If it cant be fully covered.

As far as the tail wheel, is this such a different/difficult design to learn on? Making landing more difficult I assume?
 
Hopefully you slow down and get a good trainer plane.


This reminds me of myself, alot. Except I thought I'd train in a Mitsubishi M2....

Once I realized it was a 182 or 235 I still was getting very upset with people telling me it wasn't a good idea to build my own 1100ft runway to begin my training....


Slowww down
 
big_luke said:
As far as the tail wheel, is this such a different/difficult design to learn on? Making landing more difficult I assume?
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Tricycle-gear planes want to stay straight on takeoff and landing. Taildraggers want to go tail first. Try pushing a shopping cart from the basket end to get the general feel.
 
ClimbnSink said:
If he is going to get one anyway might as well start in one...
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I'd say that's nonsense. There is no way you can truly learn how to be a pilot by just flying one aircraft. Being "hot" is a load of crap as well. In most ways the Glasair is much easier to fly than a 150 and it's therefore exponentially easier to make a mistake that might likely you.

I'd say that a 150 or any of the classic taildraggers such as a Cub or Champ are the idea starting points and would teach you all about flying by experiencing those control anomalies such as adverse yaw that were completely eliminated through engineering in the modern composite experimentals like the Glasair.
 
Finding an instructor with Glasair experience in type would be critical but as a student pilot, I'd recommend something more basic like a Cessna 172 or Piper Archer.
 
Glasair I's are my favorite of the series. The taildragger version is about as sexy as it gets. I considered purchasing one when I was initially shopping for aircraft. They are super fast, and quite stable. I have attempted to sit in several Glassair's and I'm fairly confident I've tried in that particular airplane.

I am 6'2" 230lb and I could not fit in any of the one's I sought out in the central Texas area. Not even close. The seat backs are glassed into the hull as structure and could not be modified or moved back any further. Something to consider.

That is the extent of my knowledge of those airplanes. Others have provided great info on the technicality's of ownership.
 
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unless you have money to burn....

Your insurance as Ron pointed out is going to eat you alive in that thing.
 
Ron Levy said:
There are a lot of reasons why that airplane would not be a really good choice for most people starting out in flight training. The fact that it's an Experimental-Amateur Built aircraft, as well as being a tailwheel airplane, create a number of insurance issues. It's also a rather slick design, and may present some additional challenges during training. Finally, if you decide for whatever reason to sell it, the market for a plane like this will be very limited, so you'd probably have to either sell it cheap or sit on it for quite a while until a good offer comes along.
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WTF :confused:

I leaned to fly in a taildragger, as did everyone in WWI, WWII and all the civilians around that time.

No idea how it being experimental will cause issues for flight training, seen plenty of folks learn how to fly in their RVs, Fly Babies, etc.

With it being slick, it's not like it's a F-104, as long as the guy has half a brain and finds a CFI who isn't wet behind the ears, he'll be fine.

Finally for selling it, seems like plenty of folks are into Glasairs, don't think it's that much of a oddball at all.

Only problems I see are the obvious, the seller is asking for nearly 50k for a plane that's maybe worth 30k, he probably has all sorts of money tied up in building the thing (got it's airworthiness in 01') and thinks he can get it back out. Seeing that the seller is an Airline Transport Pilot (single engine land only) and current CFI, I'd think he would know better.

The avionics are crap, especially for a experimental where you have so many options.

Aaaand, it's a fixed gear, IMO the whole point of a Glasair is a high speed, short thin winged aircraft, making it as slick as possible, dragging those gear through the sky is like shooting that plane in it's own foot.


So yes, if you're a half decent stick and find a experienced instructor you'll be fine in that plane, question is do you really want THAT plane, I think you could do better.
 
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big_luke said:
As far as insurance, would it make any difference if it fully paid for vs not partly owned by a bank? Like buying a car and having liability only coverage? If it cant be fully covered.

As far as the tail wheel, is this such a different/difficult design to learn on? Making landing more difficult I assume?
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It might make a little difference if it's paid in full, but not much. Most of what your premium is based on is the amount of time you have in the air, and the amount of time in that type of aircraft. With you at zero on both they see you as the most likely candidate for a smoking hole in the ground. Add in a high performance (relatively) taildragger that's not known as a forgiving durable trainer and you get rates that are sky high. Being experimental doesn't help there either.

Basically you have an insurers worst nightmare in terms of liability, and they will want to make it worth their while to insure you.
 
How mechanically inclined are you?
How tall and how much do you weigh?

Answer those and I'll give my thoughts.
 
James331 said:
WTF :confused:

I leaned to fly in a taildragger, as did everyone in WWI, WWII and all the civilians around that time.

No idea how it being experimental will cause issues for flight training, seen plenty of folks learn how to fly in their RVs, Fly Babies, etc.

With it being slick, it's not like it's a F-104, as long as the guy has half a brain and finds a CFI who isn't wet behind the ears, he'll be fine.

Finally for selling it, seems like plenty of folks are into Glasairs, don't think it's that much of a oddball at all.

Only problems I see are the obvious, the seller is asking for nearly 50k for a plane that's maybe worth 30k, he probably has all sorts of money tied up in building the thing (got it's airworthiness in 01') and thinks he can get it back out. Seeing that the seller is an Airline Transport Pilot (single engine land only) and current CFI, I'd think he would know better.

The avionics are crap, especially for a experimental where you have so many options.

Aaaand, it's a fixed gear, IMO the whole point of a Glasair is a high speed, short thin winged aircraft, making it as slick as possible, dragging those gear through the sky is like shooting that plane in it's own foot.


So yes, if you're a half decent stick and find a experienced instructor you'll be fine in that plane, question is do you really want THAT plane, I think you could do better.
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Do you know someone that has learned to fly in a Fly Baby? There are very few two seat versions and they are damn small with very limited useful load.
 
Pretty sure, biplane version?

Looked just like yours but 2 place.
 
Couldn't get it to download but I believe it's N320RP? If it is, it appears to be a nice aircraft. Based on its condition in Barnstormers ad, I'd offer 43 grand. While most TDs are going in the upper 30s this one isn't in the average class.

Is it a good aircraft for a new pilot? Nope, not unless you get thorough instruction from a CFI who knows the type. Finding an instructor who's willing to take you from 0 hrs to PPL will be hard to do. For full coverage insurance, I'd say you'll be pushing 3 grand per year. Obviously there's a whole bunch more direct and indirect operating costs that go along with it. I operate my Glasair for about 8-10 grand a year flying about 75 hrs.

Once you do get a hang of it though, they're a blast to fly. Basic acro, good cross country legs, and not bad for instruments with an AP. That is if you can even fit in it.
 
big_luke said:
As far as insurance, would it make any difference if it fully paid for vs not partly owned by a bank? Like buying a car and having liability only coverage? If it cant be fully covered.

As far as the tail wheel, is this such a different/difficult design to learn on? Making landing more difficult I assume?
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Insurance for a tailwheel is higher, and higher if you are low / no time.

Learning to fly in a tailwheel aircraft is easy (at least in my experience).

Transitioning from a nosewheel aircraft to a tailwheel seems to be difficult (at least based on my observations). There seems to be some "unlearning" involved.

Transitioning from a tailwheel to a nosewheel is no big deal. I got checked out in a Cherokee in an hour and ten minutes.

If you want to fly tailwheel aircraft it is best to start out in one IMO.

You may wish to start out in an instructor/ school owned aircraft (if you can find one locally) to get at least some hours for your insurance.

And, I bought an E-AB aircraft to avoid all of the type certificated worm can nonsense - just look at the thread on lubing a primer - even the experts can't come close to agreeing on what is legal to do and what is not. If you are a half decent wrench, go for it. There is nothing magic about airplanes as compared to cars, boats, motorcycles, etc.
 
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James331 said:
Pretty sure, biplane version?

Looked just like yours but 2 place.
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Biplane version is one seat as well. Two seat versions were something the builder came up with on their own. Not really practical.
 
Archammer said:
Glasair I's are my favorite of the series. The taildragger version is about as sexy as it gets. I considered purchasing one when I was initially shopping for aircraft. They are super fast, and quite stable. I have attempted to sit in several Glassair's and I'm fairly confident I've tried in that particular airplane.

I am 6'2" 230lb and I could not fit in any of the one's I sought out in the central Texas area. Not even close. The seat backs are glassed into the hull as structure and could not be modified or moved back any further. Something to consider.

That is the extent of my knowledge of those airplanes. Others have provided great info on the technicality's of ownership.
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That might be the stopping point right there.

if you had problems fitting into it, I'm 6'3" @ 300. I can slim down some, but can't get any shorter. Are they all built the same, or can you change the seat distance while building the kit?
 
jesse said:
How mechanically inclined are you?
How tall and how much do you weigh?

Answer those and I'll give my thoughts.
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I'd say I'm very mech inclined. Work on all my own vehicles from maintenance to engine swaps/custom fab.

As far is size, as mentioned above, that might be the biggest kicker.
 
Would training in a glasair, be much different than training in an A36, or a C182?

when you stop and put your little narrow mind to it; If it's all you've known....
I know a guy who got his PPL in an A36. The only airplane he's ever flown. My nephew took his primary training in his granddads 182.
So what's th' difference between that and a Glasair?
 
big_luke said:
That might be the stopping point right there.

if you had problems fitting into it, I'm 6'3" @ 300. I can slim down some, but can't get any shorter. Are they all built the same, or can you change the seat distance while building the kit?
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Much like other home builts, I would suspect they are built to suit the builder. And most builders are not of average height like you and I.
 
The Glasair actually looks like an easy to handle tailwheel plane. Probably easier to handle than the cubs and such many folks learned to fly in. The tailwheel planes I have flown with modern spring gear are a big handling improvement over the squirelly, bouncy J3's.

Given the OP's name is Big_luke and he says he is 300lbs, probably not the best choice. As metioned earlier, finding a CFI willing to provide initial private pilot training and TW instruction may be difficult.

Glasairs are not the most popular but you could probably find a local CFI with a good deal of Vans RV teaching experience, let him fly your plane a few hours to get used to it, and then have him teach you how to fly it.

Sit in one first and see if you fit.
 
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big_luke said:
As far as insurance, would it make any difference if it fully paid for vs not partly owned by a bank? Like buying a car and having liability only coverage? If it cant be fully covered.
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Your liability is still going to be higher with this plane compared to a typical trainer, but obviously you can save a lot of money going without hull coverage if you buy the plane for cash. However, there are good financial reasons a TW plane has much higher hull rates than tricycle gear planes, especially for primary training -- too many end up damaged in ground handling accidents (especially after touchdown on landing). If you don't mind the risk of some tens of thousands in damage (not to mention finding someone to repair an E-AB airplane), then going without hull insurance would be an option if you don't have a loan on the plane.

As far as the tail wheel, is this such a different/difficult design to learn on? Making landing more difficult I assume?
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It's not just the landing -- people come to grief on taxi and takeoff, too. The problem is that the main wheels are forward of the center of gravity and the wheel that does the steering is aft of it, so that any shift laterally tends to pull the plane farther off heading and any braking when not going absolutely straight tends to make the plane want to swap ends. Even highly experienced tailwheel pilots sometimes get bit, and when it comes to new trainees, the number of damage events is pretty high compared to tricycle gear planes -- and the insurers are well aware of this much higher incidence of damage events.
 
James331 said:
I leaned to fly in a taildragger, as did everyone in WWI, WWII and all the civilians around that time.
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And lots of them ground looped, too. The landing accident rate was horrific.

No idea how it being experimental will cause issues for flight training, seen plenty of folks learn how to fly in their RVs, Fly Babies, etc.
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Those are a very small percentage of the pilot population.

With it being slick, it's not like it's a F-104, as long as the guy has half a brain and finds a CFI who isn't wet behind the ears, he'll be fine.
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The statistics don't agree with you, and that's why the tailwheel insurance rates for zero-time trainees are so high.

Finally for selling it, seems like plenty of folks are into Glasairs, don't think it's that much of a oddball at all.
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:rofl: Just count the number of tailwheel Glasairs like this and compare it to the total fleet. Heck, just see how many are available for sale compared to airplanes of the typical trainer type such as Cessna 172's and PA28's.
 
James331 said:
Aaaand, it's a fixed gear, IMO the whole point of a Glasair is a high speed, short thin winged aircraft, making it as slick as possible, dragging those gear through the sky is like shooting that plane in it's own foot.
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I think the tailwheel configuration is a bit of a compromise in that category. The Glasairs have good fairings and you're really only dragging two wheels through the sky.


What you really need is a Swift. My grocery shopping cart size tailwheel folds up into the empennage when I retract the gear :)
 
The reality right now is that you really don't know what kind of airplane you want to buy. Learning airplane ownership is a whole different set of skills than just being a pilot. When you go into the experimental world you have to know quite a bit more about your machine. If you're the mechanical type that enjoys messing around with mechanical stuff then you'd probably prefer to own an experimental.

You might have problems finding a shop that'll work on it - or a shop that'll work on it in a way that's not ridiculously expensive. Sometimes you might have to figure out how to get parts fabricated yourself. I don't know the Glasair world that well so maybe that's not an issue.

I own a FlyBaby and also manage the rental of a 172. It's a hell of a lot easier to get something fixed on the 172 then it is the Flybaby. Any shop in the world can work on the 172.

The FlyBaby on the other hand is quite a bit different. Most large shops would likely refuse to touch it. When things break I often have to look all over the internet and eBay to try and find a replacement part or I have to fabricate it myself. Many of the parts on my airplane were fabricated by the builder when it was made. If one of those things break then the only option is to fabricate it myself or find someone to do it for me. Most shops that just turn wrenches on 172s aren't going to be able to do that effectively.

I would suggest you wait until you compete your private pilot certificate and then get some rides in various aircraft you may be interested in purchasing. From there you can research, research, research and buy what you actually want. You'll get to learn a LOT about owning an airplane and you won't be having to learn how to fly at the same time.

As to finding a competent instructor to teach you that may or may not be difficult. Most of the really active flight instructors that are GOOD at making private pilots likely have no tailwheel time and haven't ever even flown an Experimental. They're probably not a good fit. You could likely find someone that is a CFI and has flown a Glasair but they might be 500 miles away from you and they might not be good at primary instruction at all.

If you approached me today in Lincoln with your plan I would probably discourage it. If you were deadset on purchasing it I would do everything I could to help you find the right one and learn to manage an airplane. I'd be willing to primary instruct in the airplane but would probably want to fly it around myself for 5 or 10 hours first to really get a feel for it.
 
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jesse said:
You might have problems finding a shop that'll work on it - or a shop that'll work on it in a way that's not ridiculously expensive. Sometimes you might have to figure out how to get parts fabricated yourself. I don't know the Glasair world that well so maybe that's not an issue.
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I suspect that if the OP is into custom fabrication the need for a shop pretty much evaporates (One does need to find an A&P to to the annual condition inspections).

big_luke said:
I'd say I'm very mech inclined. Work on all my own vehicles from maintenance to engine swaps/custom fab.
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I suspect that if the OP is into custom fabrication the need for a shop pretty much evaporates (One does need to find an A&P to to the annual condition inspections).
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Correct. All the work on my Flybaby has been done in my hangar. A&P does my inspection every fall.
 
jesse said:
Correct. All the work on my Flybaby has been done in my hangar. A&P does my inspection every fall.
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My work is divided between the hangar, my garage (where the left wing is right now) and the shop at school :wink2:.
 
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