poadeleted20
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The Federal Tort Claims Act only protects the government if the controllers follow the book.
New hold short instructions at Addison
- Thread starter Dave Siciliano
- Start date
ron22
Cleared for Takeoff
Maybe plan "C" should include these
http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/contractors/access_control/guardian/
Hold short or Severe Tire Damage.
http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/contractors/access_control/guardian/
Hold short or Severe Tire Damage.
flyingEE
Filing Flight Plan
Have they tried some of the more traditional methods of keeping people from straying on to the runway at Addison...like runway guard lights?
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
They installed flashing yellow lights on all runway entrances at my airport but I can't see that this does much if anything to reduce incursions. First of all, the vast majority of incursions here have been ground vehicles not airplanes. There was a lot of construction activity this past year which accounted for a lot of the incursions. We also had one incident where car delivering sandwiches to the tower wandered into the movement area and another where a charter passenger drove at "high speed" down several taxiways and cross all runways to get to the charter FBO after entering the field at a different FBO on the opposite side of the field.
Second the lights are on all the time (although they're too dim to see easily in the daytime) so everyone is going to become accustomed to taxiing past them if they believe they're not crossing an active runway. I would think they'd be a lot more effective if they were only turned on at the entrances to an active runway or better yet also turned off by the tower ahead of an airplane that was cleared across the runway. An alternative would be to turn them on at any runway that was actually being used (or about to be used) for a takeoff or landing.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
How will the taxi instructions be worded to implement the no-crossing restriction? Are they going to give everyone progressive taxi instructions, or a long complicated set of instructions all at once?
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
I've noticed lately that my home airport has been giving progressive instructions. Maybe it's because of some construction that has an intersection closed, but maybe it's policy now.
poadeleted20
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At some point last year, as a result of the record of folks going the wrong/different/surprise way during taxi when more than one route is possible, the FAA changed the guidance to controllers and required them to give full taxi directions by taxiway letters to all taxiing aircraft. Where they used to say only "Tiger 22RL, taxi to Runway 32," they now must specify "Tiger 22RL, taxi to Runway 32 via Echo, Bravo, and Alpha." This isn't the same as progressive taxi instructions, in which they give you turn-by-turn instructions like that cultured British lady in your automotive GPS, and which are only provided on request.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
You're right - progressive will tell you directions to turn. The instructions we're being given are not that detailed, but are more thourough than in the past.
At ADS, when I land, I typically place it so I can turn-off at Golf, which puts me directly opposite Uniform (which is on the other side of Alpha, which is the parallel to the runway). So I exit the runway, cross the hold-short line, which places me in Alpha, about 30 feet from Uniform, and ground tells me, "Taxi to Uniform via Alpha."
I think they feel as silly as they sound... but rules is rules, and they're generally good to me, so I have no complaints, none whatsoever, sir.
I think they feel as silly as they sound... but rules is rules, and they're generally good to me, so I have no complaints, none whatsoever, sir.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
It's rather annoying. You actually have to look at the airport diagram. Bastards.
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
Richard: The instructions aren't complicated because there is only one runway with a taxiway on each side: If one is on the west side mid field and departing south--taxi on Bravo to Charlie (southmost taxiway that crosses 15/33). Once at Charlie: cross 15, taxi on Alpha to Kilo. One just taxied 3,000 feet to the south end; crossed and taxied almost 7,000 feet back up the other side instead of straight across mid field. Adds about 6,000 feet to the taxi on a 7,200 foot field (don't hold me to exact measurements--just approximating).
It encourages some folks to depart sought from mid field rather than taxiing down and all the way up the other side for longer runway length.
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1002/00768AD.PDF
Best,
Dave
ATCGUY
Filing Flight Plan
I am an Air Traffic Controller at ADS, in all my years of expierence, I have never seen as many Runway Incursions as I have at this airport. I followed this thread with some interest and I have yet to see a feasible answer to the problem. Is this new phraseology the tower chief instituted the answer, probably not. I think its use by the controllers is rude and degrading to the pilots, and inconsistant with the rules governing ATC and it makes us look bad as professionals.
How it all started, about two years ago the FAA increased the Runway Safety Zone Requirement, thus forcing Addison Airport Officials to move the hold short lines, now the hold short lines run right along the edge of Taxiway Alpha. Pilots are turning to face the runway and crossing the lines. In some cases they have read the instructions back and still crossed them. Now its not just pilots, but I can only think of three incursions that did not invlove a pilot. However we look at this it is still to many.
We need an answer as to how to fix this problem and we are looking at it, simple solution, move the hold short lines back to their original location and issue a waiver for Addison. Tried that, didn't fly, now what can we do? FAA Safety directed phraseology, didn't work either, now what can we do? Tower Chief Praseology?? I would honestly like to find a viable answer, a solution, something that will not only work but benefit the pilots and the controllers.
As to the comments about the ATIS and the statement on it " All pilots shall readback Hold-short Instructions", well its pretty self explanatory at this point, and the statement " All pilots shall acknowledge ATC Instructions with Callsign", well again if you don't use your callsign then legally we cannot be assured that it was you that acknowledged those instructions. Thus we, the controllers are attributed with an error. I know what the FAR's say along with the AIM, we need this though to ensure A) it was you that acknowleged and B) to be compliant with directions instituted by the FAA.
How it all started, about two years ago the FAA increased the Runway Safety Zone Requirement, thus forcing Addison Airport Officials to move the hold short lines, now the hold short lines run right along the edge of Taxiway Alpha. Pilots are turning to face the runway and crossing the lines. In some cases they have read the instructions back and still crossed them. Now its not just pilots, but I can only think of three incursions that did not invlove a pilot. However we look at this it is still to many.
We need an answer as to how to fix this problem and we are looking at it, simple solution, move the hold short lines back to their original location and issue a waiver for Addison. Tried that, didn't fly, now what can we do? FAA Safety directed phraseology, didn't work either, now what can we do? Tower Chief Praseology?? I would honestly like to find a viable answer, a solution, something that will not only work but benefit the pilots and the controllers.
As to the comments about the ATIS and the statement on it " All pilots shall readback Hold-short Instructions", well its pretty self explanatory at this point, and the statement " All pilots shall acknowledge ATC Instructions with Callsign", well again if you don't use your callsign then legally we cannot be assured that it was you that acknowledged those instructions. Thus we, the controllers are attributed with an error. I know what the FAR's say along with the AIM, we need this though to ensure A) it was you that acknowleged and B) to be compliant with directions instituted by the FAA.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Possibilty?:
Don't tell the pilots to taxi to the runway, but tell them to taxi to taxiway kilo via alpha hold short of kilo. Then clear them to taxi to 15 after they say they are ready at kilo
Don't tell the pilots to taxi to the runway, but tell them to taxi to taxiway kilo via alpha hold short of kilo. Then clear them to taxi to 15 after they say they are ready at kilo
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Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
That explains a lot - are most of the incursions from pilots NOT based at your field? I would think that locally based pilots would be aware of the new placement of the hold-short lines and I could see where someone would get tripped up on this.
Dr. O
Pattern Altitude
I don't have a dog in this fight - I do know that if the highways and roads of any state had as lousy a marking system as airports do, the ACLU would have their highway department in the Federal Courts suing the socks off them...
I have seen articles about colored light systems, analogous to traffic lights, at a few big airports... Seems like a reasonable idea... Red light on the left side of the taxiway in line with the hold short line - you don't go until it is green - or until it stops flashing and goes out, etc...
denny-o
I have seen articles about colored light systems, analogous to traffic lights, at a few big airports... Seems like a reasonable idea... Red light on the left side of the taxiway in line with the hold short line - you don't go until it is green - or until it stops flashing and goes out, etc...
denny-o
silver-eagle
En-Route
Like I said earlier, some pilots seem to have brought their driving game to the airport. It's not more rules and regs we need, it's paying attention to the primary task at hand and following the rules in place. Hold the various distractions until you're safe to do them.
And without getting too political about this, maybe a good sit down is advised. "N12345, Return to parking, call the tower!"
And without getting too political about this, maybe a good sit down is advised. "N12345, Return to parking, call the tower!"
NelsonMinar
Filing Flight Plan
Thanks for posting, ATCGUY. I was trying to visualize what you were saying about the new hold short lines. I hope I got this right, an overhead view of the entrance to 15.
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
Ed: I made that comment to FSDO in writing about two years ago. To me, when one says: taxi on Alpha to taxiway XXX, hold short of runway 15 on taxiway XXX, one assumes they turn onto xxx taxiway and move to the hold short line. Unfortunately, the hold short line is so close to 15 that's not possible. Once one turns fully onto that taxiway, it's too late to hold short.
I had a problem with the hold short lines in a driving rain sometime ago; couldn't see them. So now, I don't put more than the nose on the taxiway from the Alpha side. Can make things difficult for those behind you.
I sympathize with the controllers; it's a no-win situation for them. If it all goes well, it's supposed to. If it doesn't, they get at least part of the blame. To complicate things more, if one is based on the west side, as I am, the hold short lines are far enough in from taxiway B to turn onto the cross taxiways before one must stop. So, if one is used to that, it would be easy to pull onto the taxiway from Alpha unless really watching closely.
They have the yellow blinking lights at Rockford, but they are just yellow blinking lights: not red and green. They'd have to set up some kind of control system from the tower to do that. It's a long way.
As has been said; standardized markings everywhere would be wonderful. Unfortunately these runways were all designed and constructed at different times and standards have changed for many good reasons since they were built. Taxi lines on the east side of Addison are very close to taxiway Alpha to comply with those standards.
Best,
Dave
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Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
I am an Air Traffic Controller at ADS, in all my years of expierence, I have never seen as many Runway Incursions as I have at this airport. I followed this thread with some interest and I have yet to see a feasible answer to the problem. Is this new phraseology the tower chief instituted the answer, probably not. I think its use by the controllers is rude and degrading to the pilots, and inconsistant with the rules governing ATC and it makes us look bad as professionals.
How it all started, about two years ago the FAA increased the Runway Safety Zone Requirement, thus forcing Addison Airport Officials to move the hold short lines, now the hold short lines run right along the edge of Taxiway Alpha. Pilots are turning to face the runway and crossing the lines. In some cases they have read the instructions back and still crossed them. Now its not just pilots, but I can only think of three incursions that did not invlove a pilot. However we look at this it is still to many.
We need an answer as to how to fix this problem and we are looking at it, simple solution, move the hold short lines back to their original location and issue a waiver for Addison. Tried that, didn't fly, now what can we do? FAA Safety directed phraseology, didn't work either, now what can we do? Tower Chief Praseology?? I would honestly like to find a viable answer, a solution, something that will not only work but benefit the pilots and the controllers.
As to the comments about the ATIS and the statement on it " All pilots shall readback Hold-short Instructions", well its pretty self explanatory at this point, and the statement " All pilots shall acknowledge ATC Instructions with Callsign", well again if you don't use your callsign then legally we cannot be assured that it was you that acknowledged those instructions. Thus we, the controllers are attributed with an error. I know what the FAR's say along with the AIM, we need this though to ensure A) it was you that acknowleged and B) to be compliant with directions instituted by the FAA.
Nice to see someone from Addison Tower on here. I hope you know we appreciate you and your efforts. While this seems a little extreme and non-standard, we appreciate the effort to prevent runway incursions!
I didn't mention this before, but we also have a lot of folks driving on the field. That is, there are a lot of hangers inside security fences at ADS where they could access active taxiways or the runway. This has lead airport management to now require all to attend a class if driving near active areas. In our flying club, with over 100 members, it prevents guests from driving to our hangers. Since many folks don't fly frequently, a little brush up on the driving rules is positive.
Best,
Dave
Everskyward
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Display name:
Everskyward
It seems to me that the runup area needs to be redesigned to accommodate the new hold short lines. Right now there is a triangle of pavement that looks like it's supposed to be part of the runup area but it's on the other side of the hold line. Is this where most of the incursions have been? Admittedly there is not much room. Also, what is up with the taxi lines in that area?
I occasionally go to KADS and find that there is sometimes a bottleneck at this end of the runway, especially when a few airplanes are waiting for their IFR release, which can take a long time.
I occasionally go to KADS and find that there is sometimes a bottleneck at this end of the runway, especially when a few airplanes are waiting for their IFR release, which can take a long time.
Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the guys waiting for a clearance away from the end of the runway ? (in something like the 'penalty box' at ORD.)
I am an Air Traffic Controller at ADS, in all my years of expierence, I have never seen as many Runway Incursions as I have at this airport. I followed this thread with some interest and I have yet to see a feasible answer to the problem. Is this new phraseology the tower chief instituted the answer, probably not. I think its use by the controllers is rude and degrading to the pilots, and inconsistant with the rules governing ATC and it makes us look bad as professionals.
How it all started, about two years ago the FAA increased the Runway Safety Zone Requirement, thus forcing Addison Airport Officials to move the hold short lines, now the hold short lines run right along the edge of Taxiway Alpha. Pilots are turning to face the runway and crossing the lines. In some cases they have read the instructions back and still crossed them. Now its not just pilots, but I can only think of three incursions that did not invlove a pilot. However we look at this it is still to many.
We need an answer as to how to fix this problem and we are looking at it, simple solution, move the hold short lines back to their original location and issue a waiver for Addison. Tried that, didn't fly, now what can we do? FAA Safety directed phraseology, didn't work either, now what can we do? Tower Chief Praseology?? I would honestly like to find a viable answer, a solution, something that will not only work but benefit the pilots and the controllers.
As to the comments about the ATIS and the statement on it " All pilots shall readback Hold-short Instructions", well its pretty self explanatory at this point, and the statement " All pilots shall acknowledge ATC Instructions with Callsign", well again if you don't use your callsign then legally we cannot be assured that it was you that acknowledged those instructions. Thus we, the controllers are attributed with an error. I know what the FAR's say along with the AIM, we need this though to ensure A) it was you that acknowleged and B) to be compliant with directions instituted by the FAA.
Thanks for posting - and please know, we are lucky to have what I believe are very good folks in the tower at ADS, so thanks alot for that as well.
Maybe I am spoiled, but I learned to fly at ADS, and it has helped to make me more comfortable at a lot of other places.
I am confounded by the incursions; the arrangement may be a little cramped, but it's not (to me) confusing- the hold-short lines are there, and that's that.
Now, I do remember when the FAA made the airport move the lines back (that was early, 2003, I believe), and that was unmitigated hell for a while; but it all got worked out.
That would take some real concrete work; the run-up pad at the end of Alpha, by Kilo, is still pretty large. In my experience, the greatest likelihood of a true jam is when a large turbine guy opts to remain aligned with Alpha, blocking access to the run-up pad for everyone (and giving us all a snoot full of jet exhaust, too). Fortunately, that does not happen too often.
Now, if we could get the gummint to do away with that silly 1500AGL airspace pimple to the immediate south...
kkoran
Pattern Altitude
It doesn't appear the problem is one of pilots not knowing to stop, but rather one of them not knowing where to stop.
kkoran
Pattern Altitude
I'm am surprised that there isn't a remark in the A/FD warning pilots that the hold lines are near the edge of the parallel taxiway. Are warnings posted at the FBOs?
Dr. O
Pattern Altitude
Kent I agree with you - and that is what the lights are spoze to help...
But after seeing the picture of the hold short line being right on the edge of the taxi way, I can see what the problem is - my wing will cover the line as I get even with it - then you turn to face the hold short line and are across before you even start looking...
This is too small of a problem to interest the ACLU - but it sure would be nice to see the high level FAA mucky mucks who signed off on those hold short lines sweating bullets in a federal court room as they are getting a new rectal opening bored, right out in public... It would be a whole new experience for them, after losing a case and not being able to appeal to THEMSELVES...
denny-o
But after seeing the picture of the hold short line being right on the edge of the taxi way, I can see what the problem is - my wing will cover the line as I get even with it - then you turn to face the hold short line and are across before you even start looking...
This is too small of a problem to interest the ACLU - but it sure would be nice to see the high level FAA mucky mucks who signed off on those hold short lines sweating bullets in a federal court room as they are getting a new rectal opening bored, right out in public... It would be a whole new experience for them, after losing a case and not being able to appeal to THEMSELVES...
denny-o
poadeleted20
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There are more and more airports where reviews of hold short lines are discovering the same issue and lines drawn before the standards changed are being moved back almost onto the parallel taxiway. Cambridge MD (KCGE) is another like this, but without a tower, there's nobody to get excited if someone turns the corner.
ATCGUY
Filing Flight Plan
Okay, I will try to answer all that I can. This is just my opinion and observations based on my expierence.
If I instruct an aircraft to taxi to an intersection be it a RY intersection or a taxiway intersection via alpha, it can create a back-up along that taxiway. Further more we tried a version of in the past and had little success, and once again may confuse pilots as to wether they are to hold on alpha, or at the intersecting taxiway.
We on the FAA side of things and the Addison Airport Officials are pushing to get what is comonly referred to as Wig-Wag Lights. One of the issues is Funding, cost associated with operation and maintance of the lights and overall effectiveness. We are trying though.
Dave, you are right on stating that Standardized Markings are key, to go along with that is Starndardized Phraseology. 15 years ago this was not a factor, now with all the changes and new requirements it is, but due to limitation of space available at the airport there is not much room to make alot of changes. To widen Taxiway Alpha so as to allow a two lane operation would be awsome, and to widen the Run-up to hold those aircraft needing to delay or are awaiting IFR release would be even better. Is it possible though, I am not an engineer, I can look at pictures and airport layouts and say hey theres room for this, the bottom line to that is who foots the Bill.
As far as Individuals driving on the Airport, it is a concern and at times a huge factor. I have observed cars and trucks going excessively fast on the service roads and cut off aircraft taxiing out of non-movement areas. Additionally they sometimes venture onto movement areas and even onto the runway.
Finally the Addison Airport Adminstration has posted information regarding the runway incursion issue. As I stated before we are all working this issue. Addison is ranks number 2 in its region for runway incursions and I believe number 6 nationwide, those are not good stats to have for an airport with a single runway and the number of operations we have on an anuall basis. It is not just station aircraft but transient aircraft operators also. So it is not just one specific group.
I personally would like to get together with some of the operators at Addison Airport and discuss this issue with them, time and place, let me know, I will do my best to be there. I would like to see as many as I can and not just one select group though, working together the Airport Administration, Controllers, and the Pilots we may find the answer and it could be simple and effective.
If I instruct an aircraft to taxi to an intersection be it a RY intersection or a taxiway intersection via alpha, it can create a back-up along that taxiway. Further more we tried a version of in the past and had little success, and once again may confuse pilots as to wether they are to hold on alpha, or at the intersecting taxiway.
We on the FAA side of things and the Addison Airport Officials are pushing to get what is comonly referred to as Wig-Wag Lights. One of the issues is Funding, cost associated with operation and maintance of the lights and overall effectiveness. We are trying though.
Dave, you are right on stating that Standardized Markings are key, to go along with that is Starndardized Phraseology. 15 years ago this was not a factor, now with all the changes and new requirements it is, but due to limitation of space available at the airport there is not much room to make alot of changes. To widen Taxiway Alpha so as to allow a two lane operation would be awsome, and to widen the Run-up to hold those aircraft needing to delay or are awaiting IFR release would be even better. Is it possible though, I am not an engineer, I can look at pictures and airport layouts and say hey theres room for this, the bottom line to that is who foots the Bill.
As far as Individuals driving on the Airport, it is a concern and at times a huge factor. I have observed cars and trucks going excessively fast on the service roads and cut off aircraft taxiing out of non-movement areas. Additionally they sometimes venture onto movement areas and even onto the runway.
Finally the Addison Airport Adminstration has posted information regarding the runway incursion issue. As I stated before we are all working this issue. Addison is ranks number 2 in its region for runway incursions and I believe number 6 nationwide, those are not good stats to have for an airport with a single runway and the number of operations we have on an anuall basis. It is not just station aircraft but transient aircraft operators also. So it is not just one specific group.
I personally would like to get together with some of the operators at Addison Airport and discuss this issue with them, time and place, let me know, I will do my best to be there. I would like to see as many as I can and not just one select group though, working together the Airport Administration, Controllers, and the Pilots we may find the answer and it could be simple and effective.
I was more thinking along the lines of keeping aircraft waiting for IFR releases away from the taxiway alltogether and hold them somewhere on the main ramp. That way, the hold-short line could be moved back onto the taxiway and people would just have to line up on alpha. If someone isn't ready to go, they can be sent to the runup-pad (which again could be separated from alpha by its own hold-short line).
Unfortunately, the layout of ADS does not really lend itself to this approach; most areas of the airport (basically, all based aircraft) are too remote for the plane to wait there for release - it would take too long from release to ready for takeoff - and there is no place available on the field for a "holding pen" to be built.
Really, the backup is rarely bad, and there is still plenty of room at the runup pad for intelligently-operated aircraft to hold short, awaiting release, without blocking others.
Perhaps some very pointed signage along Alpha might help.
Wayward Pilots...
...Please beware...
...cross the line...
...you'll be denied the air!
Burma Shave
At ORD it's a couple of miles from the 'penalty box' to the runway, once the planes get a slot, they just fit themselves into the conga-line waiting for takeoff.
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
A difference may be ORD departures would have priority uno. Here at ADS, we are Class D under the B. We have to be sequenced between D/FW and Love Field Departures (each in Class B airspace). We are under a departure DP for traffic headed East from D/FW and share the DP with Love departing traffic.
Best,
Dave
ORD controls its space; at ADS, you get slotted into the IFR flow as space allows (dictated by Bravo airports DAL and DFW). Lengthy delay 'twixt release and ready for takeoff would not likely work.
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Brilliant minds think alike! (grin)
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Brilliant minds think alike! (grin)
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Actually, that's a pretty good idea. I've seen information signs before, mostly reminders about noise abatement policies, but I doubt there's anything wrong with a large sign that says "Hold Short prior to turn onto intersection" or similar.
ATCGUY = Thanks for your insight on this. Is there a way to get runway incursion figures? I'm curious about my D-airport, and would like to find the stats on operations vs. incursions.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
You and I are on the same page; I was just drawing up graphics to represent the same. I'm not sure if the new requirements require no aircraft movement within xx feet laterally of the extended centerline of the runway; they must, or there's no reason to carve up the runup area like that. Just entering the Kilo runup area and spinning around to the far side to make room for other folks to enter the corral, as one is likely to do at most airports, would put you across the "hold short" lines, when you're nowhere NEAR the runway.
Here's how it is now:
Here's how I think it should be remarked, and a lot of the "issues" at Kilo go away:
Attachments
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gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
So you're only #6 in the nation eh? My home base had the distinction of
being rated the #1 airport for runway incursions last year. They recently installed the yellow wig-wags and IMO these will have little effect since they are always on even for inactive runways that pilots routinely cross legally without a specific clearance. A system where they were only on for active runways or better yet for active runways that a pilot isn't cleared across would be far more effective.
We also suffered the relocation of the hold short lines to a point too close to the northside taxiway to allow an arriving airplane to remain clear of the taxiway and just for good measure they also eliminated almost all of the runnup areas.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Were the holding point signs relocated back to the holding point markings? I imagine they were. Are they on high enough standoffs, and angled sufficiently that pilots approaching the taxiway on Alpha or Bravo can see them BEFORE making the turn onto the taxiway?
fgcason
En-Route
Now I understand a lot more about the problem there.
I would have likely caught the hold line on the turnoff to the runway though it would have been expected about where the two taxiway centerlines meet. I wouldn't be surprised if I put the nose wheel on the line before stopping.
The hold line in the runup area:
I understand the need for lateral offset but damn, someone needs to move those lines or send in the cement mixers.If I didn't see that picture before flying into there as a one time transient passing through, you could have typed up the entire incursion report except for the date and time weeks in advance. IMHO, anyone not familiar with the airport would not be expecting a hold line isolating a third of the runup area. I would roll right past the line and expect to see the hold line somewhere closer to the runway. (who puts a hold line inside a runup area anyway?) It's a simple airport design at least in that area so I wouldn't hesitate to roll up and stop on those black marks on the left side without even looking for a hold line before then. I would expect to turn right from there and see the hold line about where the last taxi centerline marks intersect. If no one yelled at me before then, I'd likely end up stopped short of the runway edge marking and not so politely ask the tower WTF is going on at that crazy place.
Frank, there you go, using common sense.
The offset from the runway is not adequate, and (apparently) the FAA was not willing to waive compliance when it was forcefully brought to their attention by the Town of Addison.
Used to be, the hold short lines were in the lateral taxiways. Common sense. Not so common.
The offset from the runway is not adequate, and (apparently) the FAA was not willing to waive compliance when it was forcefully brought to their attention by the Town of Addison.
Used to be, the hold short lines were in the lateral taxiways. Common sense. Not so common.
fgcason
En-Route
Yea. Like I said, I would have been BUSTED there. (Thanks in the future for saving my butt with that image today)
Is that offset for IFR ops or just general offset requirements for the towered environment there? I know it's not standard everywhere since I've flown out of places with acres of pavement with taxiways almost right up against the runway. I don't have any kind of solution short of a hold line on the taxiway with a really big sign saying 'stop here or die' next to it before getting to the runup area.
I wonder if the lateral offset was about another 20-25 feet if they would have run a hold line down the middle of the taxiway?
It sounds like a whole bunch of people (including pilots who have crossed the line) need to get together in a hangar and have a long talk with a huge airport diagram drawn out on the floor.
I feel for everyone (tower and pilots) living there with the non standard design and problems that causes. Much sympathy.
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