new engine break in

[SupraPilot]

Hello,

today a friend of mine called me up that i havent spoken to in a while...he told me that he started flight training and he bought a very nice well maintained warrior from another person based at our airport...

Just before he bought it the plane had a brand new engine put in it, and has a fresh annual...my friend, since he doesnt have his license yet said the mechanics told him the plane needs to be flown to break the engine in, so he told me if i wanna fly ther plane anytime i could...

He told me that the mechanics told him the proper way to break in the warrior engine is to run it at high rpms, dont let it idle for long periods of time, and dont climb hard or do slow flight ect ect....pretty much said to just fly it fast and use full rich on the mixture as well....does this seem about right or is my friend gonna hurt his brand new engine..
If it matters its a 160 hp warrior ( i think they all are) but im not to fam,ilier with engine codes or anything so that about all the info i can give about the plane..

Ant

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Here's what Lycoming says to do, assuming it has a Lycoming engine... Charles Merlot of Zephyr frequents this board, he may have more real-world advice.

Source: http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1427B.pdf pages 3 and 4

C. FLIGHT TEST.
WARNING
ENGINE TEST CLUBS MUST BE REPLACED WITH APPROVED FLIGHT
PROPELLERS BEFORE FLYING AIRCRAFT.
1. Start the engine and perform a normal preflight run- up in accordance with the engine operator’s manual.
2. Take off at airframe recommended take off power, while monitoring RPM, fuel flow, oil
pressure, oil temperature and cylinder head temperatures.
3. As soon as possible, reduce to climb power specified in operator’s manual. Assume a shallow climb angle to a suitable cruise altitude. Adjust mixture per pilot’s operating handbook (POH).
4. After establishing cruise altitude, reduce power to approximately 75% and continue flight for 2 hours. For the second hour, alternate power settings between 65% and 75% power per operator’s manual.

NOTE
If the engine is normally aspirated (non-turbocharged), it will be necessary to cruise at the lower altitudes to obtain the required cruise power levels. Density altitude in excess of 8,000 feet (5,000 feet is recommended) will not allow the engine to develop sufficient cruise power for a good break- in.
5. Increase engine power to maximum airframe recommendations and maintain for 30 minutes, provided engine and aircraft are performing within operating manual specifications.

CAUTION
AVOID LOW-MANIFOLD PRESSURE DURING HIGH ENGINE SPEEDS (UNDER 15” HG.) AND RAPID CHANGES IN ENGINE SPEEDS WITH ENGINES THAT HAVE DYNAMIC COUNTERWEIGHT ASSEMBLIES. THESE CONDITIONS CAN DAMAGE THE COUNTERWEIGHTS, ROLLERS OR BUSHINGS, THEREBY CAUSING DETUNING.

6. Descend at low cruise power while closely monitoring the engine instruments. Avoid long descents at low manifold pressure. Do not reduce altitude too rapidly or the engine temperature may drop too quickly.

CAUTION

AVOID ANY CLOSED THROTTLE DESCENTS. CLOSED THROTTLE OPERATION DURING DESCENTS WILL CAUSE RING FLUTTER CAUSING DAMAGE TO THE CYLINDERS AND RINGS.

7. After landing and shutdown, check for leaks at fuel and oil fittings and at engine and accessory parting surfaces. Compute fuel and oil consumption and compare the limits given in operator’s manual. If consumption exceeds figures shown in manual, determine the cause before releasing the aircraft for service.

8. Remove oil suction screen and oil pressure screen or oil filter to check again for contamination.

NOTE: To seat the piston rings in a newly overhauled engine, cruise the aircraft at 65% to 75% power for the first 50 hours, or until oil consumption stabilizes.

 

[SupraPilot]

Thanks for the fast reply...i dont want my friend to ruin his brand new engine by breaking it in wrong....But the mechanics who did the work are very reputable and i cant imagine they would tell him the wrong way to break it in...its just maybe my friend interprited the info wrong...

I flew it once already.... the way my friend told me and its basically the same way...we didnt do any hard climbs and we flew it hard for a good 30 mins like it says and cruised a little bit ...total flight was about 2 hrs... i tried not to do much low power slow flight but it was actually so busy that sunday i was always having to slow down for other traffic..lol

any others wanna chine in??

Ant

 

[RotaryWingBob]

That sounds right to me. He should also be using straight mineral oil, not AD oil.

When we took delivery of our R44 (IO-540) a year ago, we used the maximum allowable continuous power for cruise, 23" MP give or take (varies with DA). Good thing too, it's a long flight from Torrance, CA back home!

 

[Lance F]

I did a breakin on an overhaul a year of so ago. I ran it basicially full power (max rpm and MP) at low altitude for 5 or so hours. I ran it close to 200 dF ROP and monitored CHTs very carefully. Climbs were kept very shallow. The need for straight mineral oil for our horizontally opposed engines is kind of an OWT. I ran Phillips XC 20W-50 from the beginning with the shop's (Zephyr Aircraft Engines) recommendation and without any problems. Breakin is complete when oil consumption and CHTs come down and stabilize (5 to 25 hours)

 

[Skip Miller]

He told me that the mechanics told him the proper way to break in the warrior engine is to run it at high rpms,

Translation: High Power settings. Now in a fixed prop plane like the Warrior, those are *almost* one and the same. Avoid steep descents that could windmill the prop to a high rpm with low power...

and dont climb hard

Translation: keep it running cool. You want lots of cooling air flowing through the engine.

-Skip

 

[charlie]

A Warrior is easy. Full power T/O and climb at as high an airspeed as peactical.Cruise at 75% or more at least 125 ROP which at less than 5,000' is about full rich. Periodically run it to wide open for a minute or two. Charlie Melot

 

[Pilawt]

A Warrior is easy. Full power T/O and climb at as high an airspeed as peactical.Cruise at 75% or more at least 125 ROP which at less than 5,000' is about full rich. Periodically run it to wide open for a minute or two. Charlie Melot

Charlie, does the same go for a new TCM O-200-A? I'll have one soon. Thanks.

 

[Richard]

That sounds right to me. He should also be using straight mineral oil, not AD oil.

When we took delivery of our R44 (IO-540) a year ago, we used the maximum allowable continuous power for cruise, 23" MP give or take (varies with DA). Good thing too, it's a long flight from Torrance, CA back home!

Has it been a year already? Some flights you never forget.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Has it been a year already? Some flights you never forget.

Time does fly, so to speak. We took delivery on 9/16/06!

 

[charlie]

Charlie, does the same go for a new TCM O-200-A? I'll have one soon. Thanks.

The same procedure works for all fixed pitch installations.

 

[LauraH]

Our breakin procedure for our club engines is basically, first hour with mechanic on board and close to the airport. All breakin flights are day VFR only, no practice approaches, no repetitive takeoffs and landings, full rich, full throttle, less than 5000', at least one hour between landings. The first 5 hours are full throttle, full rich. A

fter the first 5 hours are completed, the only change for the next 5 hours are varying power every 30 minutes 65-75%. Then, back to standard procedures. Oil change at 10 hours and then 25 hours. Mineral oil only until after the first 25 hours.

Only club board members are allowed to do breakin flights - when non-board members have done breakin flights, they have violated some of the above rules with poor outcomes for the engine. Along with the fact that breakin flights are billed to maintenance as opposed to the pilot, and that's our perk for our volunteer work on the board

This has worked well for our club, and is based on Lycoming/Continental recommendations along with those of our IA.

LauraH
Maintenance Director
Twin City Cloud Seven Flying Club
KFCM, Eden Prairie, MN

 

[ScottM]

Our breakin procedure for our club engines is basically, first hour with mechanic on board and close to the airport. All breakin flights are day VFR only, no practice approaches, no repetitive takeoffs and landings, full rich, full throttle, less than 5000', at least one hour between landings. The first 5 hours are full throttle, full rich. A

fter the first 5 hours are completed, the only change for the next 5 hours are varying power every 30 minutes 65-75%. Then, back to standard procedures. Oil change at 10 hours and then 25 hours. Mineral oil only until after the first 25 hours.

Only club board members are allowed to do breakin flights - when non-board members have done breakin flights, they have violated some of the above rules with poor outcomes for the engine. Along with the fact that breakin flights are billed to maintenance as opposed to the pilot, and that's our perk for our volunteer work on the board

This has worked well for our club, and is based on Lycoming/Continental recommendations along with those of our IA.

LauraH
Maintenance Director
Twin City Cloud Seven Flying Club
KFCM, Eden Prairie, MN

Laura this is exactly what my mechanic had me do in my Warrior after we did the top overhaul. It worked great.

 

[Tom-D]

LauraH
Maintenance Director
Twin City Cloud Seven Flying Club
KFCM, Eden Prairie, MN

You and your crew should read this by ECI

http://eci2fly.com/pages/tech.aspx#breakin

 

[azure]

Doing a little thread necromancy... what procedures are recommended for a constant-speed engine? I'm looking at buying a Cardinal RG with a new zero-time (yes, really, Lycoming factory reman) and wondering about the dos and don'ts for this kind of engine.

I also don't know for sure how many hours it will have been flown since installation -- obviously depends on how long it takes for me to find a pre-buy mechanic I trust and can make the arrangements for, the search is under way -- but can break-in progress be checked at pre-buy, i.e. is that a reasonable thing to ask a pre-buy mechanic to do?

 

[wabower]

Have you seen a copy of the engine log? Should be easy to determine time since installation.

Doing a little thread necromancy... what procedures are recommended for a constant-speed engine? I'm looking at buying a Cardinal RG with a new zero-time (yes, really, Lycoming factory reman) and wondering about the dos and don'ts for this kind of engine.

I also don't know for sure how many hours it will have been flown since installation -- obviously depends on how long it takes for me to find a pre-buy mechanic I trust and can make the arrangements for, the search is under way -- but can break-in progress be checked at pre-buy, i.e. is that a reasonable thing to ask a pre-buy mechanic to do?

 

[azure]

No, the airplane is not local to my area. I'm trying to arrange the pre-buy from a distance. (Of course the pre-buy mechanic will be able to tell that much, I'm just wondering how in-depth the engine inspection should be at pre-buy for a new engine.)

 

[wabower]

Where is it? Are you planning to go do the visual inspection and test flight before authorizing the pre-buy?

No, the airplane is not local to my area. I'm trying to arrange the pre-buy from a distance. (Of course the pre-buy mechanic will be able to tell that much, I'm just wondering how in-depth the engine inspection should be at pre-buy for a new engine.)

 

[azure]

The plane is in NY. If my work schedule would allow two trips over there, I'd do it, but unfortunately I can't.

 

[wabower]

What's the plan? Not planning pig-in-a-poke methodology?

The plane is in NY. If my work schedule would allow two trips over there, I'd do it, but unfortunately I can't.

 

[azure]

What do you mean by "pig in a poke"?

The only way I can see to do this is to use the CFO (Cardinal Flyers Online) mailing list to locate a mechanic unaffiliated with the seller, who is familiar with Cardinals who a number of people say is trustworthy and fair, get the pre-buy done, then if everything is satisfactory, fly there commercially and do my own lookover and finalise the deal. I already have several leads on independent mechanics with Cardinal experience.

Is this a bad idea? Is there a better way in my situation?

 

[wabower]

IMO, you've got the cart before the horse. Why pay somebody to do a pre-buy on an airplane you may not want to buy?

What do you mean by "pig in a poke"?

The only way I can see to do this is to use the CFO (Cardinal Flyers Online) mailing list to locate a mechanic unaffiliated with the seller, who is familiar with Cardinals who a number of people say is trustworthy and fair, get the pre-buy done, then if everything is satisfactory, fly there commercially and do my own lookover and finalise the deal. I already have several leads on independent mechanics with Cardinal experience.

Is this a bad idea? Is there a better way in my situation?

 

[Tom-D]

Hello,

today a friend of mine called me up that i havent spoken to in a while...he told me that he started flight training and he bought a very nice well maintained warrior from another person based at our airport...

Just before he bought it the plane had a brand new engine put in it, and has a fresh annual...my friend, since he doesnt have his license yet said the mechanics told him the plane needs to be flown to break the engine in, so he told me if i wanna fly ther plane anytime i could...

He told me that the mechanics told him the proper way to break in the warrior engine is to run it at high rpms, dont let it idle for long periods of time, and dont climb hard or do slow flight ect ect....pretty much said to just fly it fast and use full rich on the mixture as well....does this seem about right or is my friend gonna hurt his brand new engine..
If it matters its a 160 hp warrior ( i think they all are) but im not to fam,ilier with engine codes or anything so that about all the info i can give about the plane..

Ant

Who built the engine ? Do what they say, there is way too many OWT's to follow any advice given here.

The engines I build have been across the test cell, and once mounted on the aircraft they can be flown normally by the POH settings.

 

[Ted]

Where in NY is it? There are plenty of PoAers (including me) who live near a number of parts of NY.

I agree with Wayne, though. You're looking for a long-term plane, not something to flip. So you want to see the thing before you decide to buy it.

 

[azure]

IMO, you've got the cart before the horse. Why pay somebody to do a pre-buy on an airplane you may not want to buy?

Yes, I can see how it might look that way. But the only ways I would not want to buy this airplane are (1) can't come to agreement on price, (2) seller has grossly misrepresented the plane's condition, (3) something bad shows up in the pre-buy. I won't do the pre-buy without (1) (an agreement contingent on the results), and I have reason to think that (2) is unlikely in this case. But as Lance suggests, I'll see if someone can check out the plane's superficial condition prior to committing to a pre-buy.

Offers from nearby PoAers to go inspect the plane are welcome!
It's at 1B1 (Columbia County).

 

[azure]

Where in NY is it? There are plenty of PoAers (including me) who live near a number of parts of NY.

Between Albany and Poughkeepsie. It's based at 1B1.

I agree with Wayne, though. You're looking for a long-term plane, not something to flip. So you want to see the thing before you decide to buy it.

Well I'm not deciding to actually buy it until after the pre-buy. And yes of course a blind pre-buy entails risk. Ideally I'd arrange to go there with a pre-buy lined up, look at the plane, if I was satisfied pull the trigger, stay around until the pre-buy was done and then complete the deal in the same trip if everything was favorable. Can all this be done in a weekend? I've heard of pre-buys taking a week, though one mechanic claims he can do it in 8 hours or less. I'm trying to get that clarified. Otherwise I'd have to wait until end of April as I'm teaching until then.

I have never done this before so I'd appreciate any advice from more experienced members! I just don't see any other way to do it with my schedule.

 

[gismo]

What do you mean by "pig in a poke"?

The only way I can see to do this is to use the CFO (Cardinal Flyers Online) mailing list to locate a mechanic unaffiliated with the seller, who is familiar with Cardinals who a number of people say is trustworthy and fair, get the pre-buy done, then if everything is satisfactory, fly there commercially and do my own lookover and finalise the deal. I already have several leads on independent mechanics with Cardinal experience.

Is this a bad idea? Is there a better way in my situation?

First thing I'd do is request a scanned copy of the airplane and engine logs. If you don't know how to scrutinize the logs, enlist the aid of a local A&P, preferably one you'd use for maintenance on the plane if you make the purchase. I'd also try to find someone I trust local to the airplane to compare the airplane's actual superficial condition to what's been communicated to you. If that all satisfactory then I'd spring for a "pre buy" inspection, preferably one that's performed as a comprehensive annual.

As to the engine issue, the major questions to ask are:

When was the engine overhauled by Lycoming calendar wise?

How many hours has the engine run?

What was the protocol used to break the engine in?

Are the cylinders chromed?

Chrome is more "resistant" to break in than plain steel which will be pretty well "broken in" (i.e. rings sealing well) within the first couple hours of running but it's important that the engine is run at high power (no long flights above about 7000 MSL) and rich enough (or lean enough if LOP) to keep the CHTs below about 380°F. I believe that Lycoming probably has specific instructions to follow during the first 10-25 hours of operation and these should be complied with if for not other reason than this helps validate the warranty.

Also, an engine that has less than about 25 hours is much more susceptible to cylinder corrosion if the barrels are steel. During that period, a layer of "varnish" (overheated oil and combustion products) coats the cylinder walls and this offers some corrosion resistance. Worst case would be steel cylinders on an engine that's been sitting in a humid environment since the overhaul was completed.

 

[azure]

Oooh, this is all good to know. Thanks, Lance. I'll see if the seller will fax me a copy of the logs.

I don't know the date of the overhaul, only that it was installed this month, and in fact may still be down for installation/annual.

 

[Tom-D]

"may still be down for installation/annual.

Enplane that please?

If the aircraft has had an annual within the past 12 months all you need is a log book entries in the engine log to say " installed in "

An an entry in the aircraft log saying "engine removed and replaced"any A&P can do both.

If the aircraft has not has an annual within the last 12 months, it will need one prior to test flight, and break in of the engine. An -IA needs to sign that off.

 

[azure]

The seller represents the airplane to me as annualed in March 2010. On the 13th he said it was in the final stages of installation/annual.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought Lance meant the date the engine was released by Lycoming after overhaul/rebuild. Lance? (I also read the Lycoming warranty to say that coverage begins at that date, or the date of first operation, whichever is earlier. Not sure if first operation refers to factory test or first flight.)

Enplane that please?

If the aircraft has had an annual within the past 12 months all you need is a log book entries in the engine log to say " installed in "

An an entry in the aircraft log saying "engine removed and replaced"any A&P can do both.

If the aircraft has not has an annual within the last 12 months, it will need one prior to test flight, and break in of the engine. An -IA needs to sign that off.

 

[wabower]

Write your offer accordingly. Don't do anything until you have a signed deal. If he accepts, the steps are straightforward and sequential.

You look at it, fly it, accept it subject to pre-buy if you like it, conduct the prebuy, resolve the pre-buy squawks and close the deal.

Yes, I can see how it might look that way. But the only ways I would not want to buy this airplane are (1) can't come to agreement on price, (2) seller has grossly misrepresented the plane's condition, (3) something bad shows up in the pre-buy. I won't do the pre-buy without (1) (an agreement contingent on the results), and I have reason to think that (2) is unlikely in this case. But as Lance suggests, I'll see if someone can check out the plane's superficial condition prior to committing to a pre-buy.

Offers from nearby PoAers to go inspect the plane are welcome!
It's at 1B1 (Columbia County).

 

[Tom-D]

The seller represents the airplane to me as annulled in March 2010. On the 13th he said it was in the final stages of installation/annual.

He's using a term that is not a normal description of any inspection required.

Your engine is a system in the total aircraft, and when changed the log book entry is all that is needed to return to service by any A&P.

your annual is good thru march 2011, you do not need another. ( unless the annual sign off is being held due to the engine change)

March was a month ago. Watch the logs for the sign off date,

 

[gismo]

The seller represents the airplane to me as annualed in March 2010. On the 13th he said it was in the final stages of installation/annual.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought Lance meant the date the engine was released by Lycoming after overhaul/rebuild. Lance? (I also read the Lycoming warranty to say that coverage begins at that date, or the date of first operation, whichever is earlier. Not sure if first operation refers to factory test or first flight.)

The "corrosion clock" starts ticking when Lycoming pulls the engine off the test stand after the initial run-in period (probably about an hour) unless they "pickle" the engine (typically not done IME). But the chances are pretty good that the engine shipped shortly after that and the installation began soon after the shipment was completed. Up till now it wasn't clear to me that the "new" engine hadn't been installed a year ago. BTW, if you do go through with this purchase, check with Lycoming regarding any necessary paperwork to transfer the warranty to you, it might not be automatic. And since the post-installation flying hasn't been started I'd request that the current owner document that they are following Lycoming's break-in protocol for you if they do fly it.

 

[Dan Thomas]

The "corrosion clock" starts ticking when Lycoming pulls the engine off the test stand after the initial run-in period (probably about an hour) unless they "pickle" the engine (typically not done IME).

We buy Lycoming's factory overhauls exclusively. Every one is full of anti-corrosion oil: cylinders, case, intake and exhaust ports, everything.

I do the break-in flights and follow Lyc's recommendations. Their test cell time is only about 15 or 20 minutes, so the two and a half hour flight as laid out in the SL is followed and the engines run all the way to TBO with compressions in the high 70s and use very little oil. The only times I've had any trouble with these engines using more oil or having lower compressions was when I allowed them to be used for circuits and slow flight stuff before they were up to about 12 to 15 hours. If they're flown cross-country instead for those 12 hours they behave themselves afterward.

That experience is gleaned from around 20 engine replacements.

Dan

 

[azure]

He's using a term that is not a normal description of any inspection required.

What term??

Your engine is a system in the total aircraft, and when changed the log book entry is all that is needed to return to service by any A&P.

your annual is good thru march 2011, you do not need another.

I know, I'm not asking for an annual, just a thorough pre-buy.

( unless the annual sign off is being held due to the engine change)

I (obviously) haven't seen the logs so I can't be sure. He may simply be confident that the airplane will be signed off by end of month, or maybe it's been signed off since then.

March was a month ago. Watch the logs for the sign off date,

I thought a month ago was February? (Where's that time-warp smilie?)

 

[Tom-D]

What term??

Installation/annual


I know, I'm not asking for an annual, just a thorough pre-buy.

OK.


I (obviously) haven't seen the logs so I can't be sure. He may simply be confident that the airplane will be signed off by end of month, or maybe it's been signed off since then.


I thought a month ago was February? (Where's that time-warp smilie?)

How did I get a month ahead ?

 

[azure]

Installation/annual

Ah! That was my term, not his. Just meant the airplane was down for annual, and having the engine replaced at the same time.

 

[Tom-D]

Ah! That was my term, not his. Just meant the airplane was down for annual, and having the engine replaced at the same time.

The reason I questioned that was because many people think the engine needs an annual sign off logged in the engine log.

It does not. just the maintenance completed.

 

[Ted]

Well, what's your definition of a "thorough pre-buy"? You can have a pre-buy that's anything from a thorough pre-flight (figure what you'd do right after an annual - look over everything closely and pull the side cowls off to look at the engine) to an annual. When I bought the Aztec the pre-buy was pretty much looking it over for about 3 minutes, saying "How much does Jason want for this thing again?" got the number, and said "Ok, sold." I can't recommend that procedure because I already knew the plane and was getting a good deal. I would think that something closer to an annual by an independent mechanic who you're paying and who knows Cardinals would be a good idea. At the very least, have him look over the major "gotchas" that typically come up with those planes (whatever those gotchas are).

So, you can see where this could be done in a weekend or not done in a weekend. I know people who have routinely gone somewhere, looked over a plane, picked it up and come back home the same day. And that's not always next door, that's frequently someplace like Florida. How thorough of an inspection that was I can't say, but the planes always seemed to make it home.

It so happens that 1B1 is exactly on my route between KIPT and KMHT, a trip that I make pretty frequently when doing dog runs. The next time I intend on passing over would be the weekend of April 10-11. If that's not too far out in the future for you, I'd be glad to go look at it and take it for a quick flight for you.

 

[azure]

Well, what's your definition of a "thorough pre-buy"? You can have a pre-buy that's anything from a thorough pre-flight (figure what you'd do right after an annual - look over everything closely and pull the side cowls off to look at the engine) to an annual. When I bought the Aztec the pre-buy was pretty much looking it over for about 3 minutes, saying "How much does Jason want for this thing again?" got the number, and said "Ok, sold." I can't recommend that procedure because I already knew the plane and was getting a good deal. I would think that something closer to an annual by an independent mechanic who you're paying and who knows Cardinals would be a good idea. At the very least, have him look over the major "gotchas" that typically come up with those planes (whatever those gotchas are).

The mechanic I've been talking to is a Cardinal owner himself, and knows that I want all of the known 177RG trouble points looked at carefully. If I can't be there for the inspection I'll want a complete report. It will certainly be less thorough than an annual, but I don't see how to do that detailed an inspection without having the seller fly it out and leave it.

BTW I learned today that the state of the engine is that it's waiting to do its run-in flight test (edit: actually, the annual is not quite complete). The seller plans to do that "hopefully next week". Hmm.