New battery technology.

Dean

Dean

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Messages
2,222
Location
Southwest Missouri
Display Name
Display name:
Dean
For you that fly experimental aircraft, I found a new light weight Lithium-Ion battery from Bralle battery while at the L.A. Auto Show. It weights a 1/3 of normal batteries and can be mounted vertical or horizontal. It also has a 10 year life and cost about the same as what you are using now.
 
Interesting.

Going to a Lithium Iron/Ion* battery in my Sky Arrow would buy me an add'l 10 lbs or so of useful load, where every little bit helps.

The other manufacturer I've looked at is Aerovoltz.

I'm Experimental, so anything goes, but safety is, of course, a top concern.

Anyone with experience with either of these?

*I'm still unsure of the terms Lithium Ion vs. Lithium Iron. They seem to be used almost interchangeably.
 
FastEddieB said:
Interesting.

Going to a Lithium Iron/Ion* battery in my Sky Arrow would buy me an add'l 10 lbs or so of useful load, where every little bit helps.

The other manufacturer I've looked at is Aerovoltz.

I'm Experimental, so anything goes, but safety is, of course, a top concern.

Anyone with experience with either of these?

*I'm still unsure of the terms Lithium Ion vs. Lithium Iron. They seem to be used almost interchangeably.
Click to expand...

They are not the same - there are different versions of lithium battery technology on the market, and they are not created equal. I'm not going to espouse one or another, but I'll tell you to do your homework and due diligence before picking one. As with most new things, there are a few golden nuggets in a pile of fertilizer and you'll have to pick carefully.
 
Is there a weight savings when you factor in the fire extinguisher?! :D
 
Last edited:
I am planning on switching to lithium ion in the Flybaby. Since I do not have an alternator or generator more power is always nice. That said, there is no way in hell I would charge the battery with it in my airplane.
 
LDJones said:
Is a weight savings when you factor in the fire extinguisher?! :D
Click to expand...

You DO understand the difference between a Lithium battery and a Lithium Ion, no? I didn't think so.

THere is no such thing as a Lithium Iron battery so far as I know ... a probable typo, but in the industry we do abbrvt it as LiOn, which may be part of the confustion.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
You DO understand the difference between a Lithium battery and a Lithium Ion, no? I didn't think so.

THere is no such thing as a Lithium Iron battery so far as I know ... a probable typo, but in the industry we do abbrvt it as LiOn, which may be part of the confustion.

Jim
Click to expand...

Uh, did you miss the smiley? Original poster did say Lithium-Ion....same battery that's been warming up 787s and Teslas. Get it? Fire extinguisher? I didn't think so.
 
LDJones said:
Uh, did you miss the smiley? Original poster did say Lithium-Ion....same battery that's been warming up 787s and Teslas. Get it? Fire extinguisher? I didn't think so.
Click to expand...
And also known to burn up cargo planes.
 
There are LiPO's, LiFePO's, LiCoO's, and LiMnO types on the market, as well as some new experimental ones.

They all have different characteristics, some good, some bad. The only one I would consider for an aircraft would be LiFePO, and even then I don't think I would actually put one in the plane just yet - the maturity level of the product is still a bit young.

I'm a big proponent of experimental aviation - but I've got a standard aircraft battery in my experimental aircraft.
 
Dean said:
For you that fly experimental aircraft, I found a new light weight Lithium-Ion battery from Bralle battery while at the L.A. Auto Show. It weights a 1/3 of normal batteries and can be mounted vertical or horizontal. It also has a 10 year life and cost about the same as what you are using now.
Click to expand...

You sure you didn't mean a Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO) battery? Been out for a while.

http://www.aerolithium.com/
http://www.n416.com/LiFePO4.html
http://www.aeroakku.com/index.php/cat/c92_LiFePO4-Batteries.html/XTCsid/
 
Last edited:
Jeff K said:
You sure you didn't mean a Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO) battery? Been out for a while.

http://www.aerolithium.com/
http://www.n416.com/LiFePO4.html
http://www.aeroakku.com/index.php/cat/c92_LiFePO4-Batteries.html/XTCsid/
Click to expand...

Just curious...

Are there any reports of fires or other issues with any of these LithiumIRON batteries?

On the one hand, I'd really love to save 10 lbs.

On the other hand, a fire right in front of my feet in my Sky Arrow could be a definitively bad thing.
 
Lucky for us, Lead Acid batteries never overheat or explode. Ever.


From what I have read... The Lithium Iron Phosphate seems to be the most stable of the various Lithium varieties. Lithium Polymer is (I believe) the least. But, none of them will tolerate a significant over voltage and don't like hot ambient (under cowl) conditions. They get weird in cold temperatures - the internal resistance goes way up and they have to warm up before you can start with one.
 
I am going to jump on the Lithiun-Ion battery band wagon and see where the ride ends up. I have bought my last lead acid battery. I will replace my old lead acid ones with Lithiun-Ion as needed.
 
I would carry a good Halon extinguisher to put out the fire and a gallon of water to help cool things down. I already carry both with AGM batteries. I may switch in a couple of years after you test them and I get a little more life out of my AGM's. Let us know how it works out.
 
RV10flyer said:
I would carry a good Halon extinguisher to put out the fire and a gallon of water to help cool things down. I already carry both with AGM batteries. I may switch in a couple of years after you test them and I get a little more life out of my AGM's. Let us know how it works out.
Click to expand...

I don't need no stinking fire extinguisher, I have insurance!:D
 
Dean said:
I don't need no stinking fire extinguisher, I have insurance!:D
Click to expand...

Good, do you have a parachute (personal, not the one attached to the aircraft).
Already had a Cirrus and it's passengers burn up gliding down under canopy.
 
FastEddieB said:
And all Cirrus' do have fire extinguishers.
Click to expand...

Not to feed the fire (so to speak) too much - but most standard fire extinguishers won't work on a lithium-fed fire. Pour water on it and you've just compounded the problem. I'm not going to cheerlead one side or the other - but I would strongly advise that you educate yourself on the differences.
 
Last edited:
airguy said:
Not to feed the fire (so to speak) too much - but most standard fire extinguishers won't work on a lithium-fed fire. Pour water on it and you've just compounded the problem. I'm not going to cheerlead one side or the other - but I would strongly advise that you educate yourself on the differences.
Click to expand...

As I posted above, I think it takes both extinguishing the fire then cooling things down with water.
 
Hello pilots of America forum. Been a long time since the last post mentioning Aerolithium...Its an old thread, but, If anybody wants to start a new thread on the subject of Lithium batteries, I would join it.
I am here to say aerolithium is alive and well and now offers an excellent 15.jpg PCLR-680.jpg alternative LiFePO4 aviation battery in the market now!
check out the new website and offerings and leave your feedback. Am also advertising in the Nov. issue of EAA sport aviation and Dec issue of Kitplanes.
 
Battman said:
Hello pilots of America forum. Been a long time since the last post mentioning Aerolithium...Its an old thread, but, If anybody wants to start a new thread on the subject of Lithium batteries, I would join it.
I am here to say aerolithium is alive and well and now offers an excellent View attachment 101665 View attachment 101666 alternative LiFePO4 aviation battery in the market now!
check out the new website and offerings and leave your feedback. Am also advertising in the Nov. issue of EAA sport aviation and Dec issue of Kitplanes.
Click to expand...
The web site mentions "Dry cell, no acid". Is this one of the new lithium sulfur batteries? There are a couple of other dry lithium batteries, too but I haven't heard of them being in production as yet.

Edit: I saw "LiFePO4"- I'm pretty sure that uses a liquid electrolyte, so please explain how it is a "dry cell"?
https://www.aerolithium.com/
 
Well, ok, u got me.. I was referring to the acid bath in a lead battery, as far hydrogen generation is concerned, and the ' dry ' meaning wasnt to convey a ' bone dry "condition.
yes, there is enough liquid in a LiFepo4 cell to make it ' Duncan Hines' moist.
So, How many you want ?
 
RC planes have been using various types of lipo batteries for years. Sometimes they do catch fire, and it's pretty spectacular even for the little ones. A <1000mAh 9.6V pack will burn like a highway flare, and you aren't going to put it out. Not water, halon, dry chemical. Just let it burn out. Had it happen to me once, and have seen it to others a couple of times. From what I've read powdered copper may work to smother the fire. Maybe.

They have much higher energy density than lead acid batteries, much lower tolerance for over charging, a very flat discharge curve, and they do not like to be discharged below 3v/cell. The charging profile is simple, constant current to constant voltage and hold, but it has to be fairly precise.

The two consistent ways to get them to ignite are to grossly over charge them, or puncture the envelope. With the later, I'm not sure if it's the exposure to the air, or the shorting of multiple layers that causes the fire. I don't think I'd mind flying with them, but my limited experience tells me they'd be a fire starting hazard in a crash...but then again, so is a regular battery if there's gasoline everywhere.
 
I work alot with lithium rechargeable batteries, and have been following the tech for a while now. I think LiFePo4 is the best option we have currently for a Lead-acid or AGM replacement. For the most part it acts the same and seems to be the safest / most robust of the Li options.

I have LiFePo4 in my glider, replacing the sealed lead-acid batteries it came with, and they are great. Could fly all day and never worry about electrical load.

RC planes have been using various types of lipo batteries for years. Sometimes they do catch fire
Click to expand...
Those RC airplanes/helicopters are using Li-polymer pouches, because they are the most energy dense per weight, but catch on fire if punctured. Similar pouch cells are used inside Cell Phones and other consumer electronics that need ultimate capacity-vs-weight. But if they are electrically abused or mechanically stressed… watch out !!!!

they'd be a fire starting hazard in a crash
Click to expand...
there was a plane at my flight school had this happen (battery fire after off-field landing), and that was a traditional Lead-Acid.

Could play the “what if” game all day long, but from all the research I’ve done I feel safe with LiFePo4. It’s the safest Li-based battery chemistry, provides much higher energy density in the same weight/size package and charges and discharge characteristics similar to a sealed lead-acid (basically makes a drop-in replacement), without all the dangers of the other Li configurations. It even tolerates being left on its charger (special LiFePo4 charger) for weeks at a time between glider flights.
 
Last edited:
You guys talk like lithium batteries are bombs waiting to go off yet dont realize the NiCads have been going thermal for decades.

And there are way more installed nicads than lipos
 
Since LiFePO4 (corrected per post #35) batteries have tighter charge and discharge constraints and GA charging systems are ripple- and glitch-prone, does the battery have internal circuitry enforcing the charge/discharge constraints and protecting the battery?
 
Last edited:
Domenick said:
Since LiPo batteries have tighter charge and discharge constraints and GA charging systems are ripple- and glitch-prone, does the battery have internal circuitry enforcing the charge/discharge constraints and protecting the battery?
Click to expand...

Ditto - the charging requirements for LiPo & LiFe are different from each other, and significantly different than that for Lead-Acid. NiCd charging ideally has a different charge routine as well (although they are generally pretty charge-tolerant). In addition, the 'peak' charge voltage(s) vary as well. (FWIW, the Lithium in your cell phone has a metal case around it along with built-in short-circuit protection. And, from what I've read, the flammable part of a LiPo is the electrolyte.) Any well-informed RC modeler has to know how to properly charge & handle a variety of rechargeable batteries.
 
pfarber said:
You guys talk like lithium batteries are bombs waiting to go off yet dont realize the NiCads have been going thermal for decades.

And there are way more installed nicads than lipos
Click to expand...

And on the citation I used to fly they pulled the nicads....one less EP to remember
 
ChopAndDrop said:
Those RC airplanes/helicopters are using Li-polymer pouches, because they are the most energy dense per weight, but catch on fire if punctured. Similar pouch cells are used inside Cell Phones and other consumer electronics that need ultimate capacity-vs-weight. But if they are electrically abused or mechanically stressed… watch out !!!!
Click to expand...

That's absolutely true. Some guys were flying with Li-Fe, but not as much. They (myself included) were using them right in the mylar bags, with little if any additional protection, and in the old days with chargers that weren't always smart about protecting the battery. If a charger thinks it's charging a 4 cell, but it's really a 2, something bad will happen. NiCd/NiMH batteries did fuel fires electrically, but to my knowledge in RC they themselves didn't catch fire. Those were typically speed controllers or wiring burning up. Those are extinguishable, and for small models not such a big deal. Again though, poor charging or mechanical damage.

Any battery that can turn over a 150+hp engine fast enough to start it, is very capable of starting a fire if it shorts. It's just physics. So as long as the chargers are reliable, and there are appropriate thermal, mechanical, and electrical protections in place, I think it's a great idea. Li-Po can be made safe. I do think they need a little bit more care than a lead acid battery, though...particularly with charging and mechanical protection. They are not as rugged as lead acid batteries.
 
Lipo can’t be made safe. You can reduce the risk, but if things go bad a lipo can make things go far worse than lead acid, and the threshold for starting the bad things is lower as well. Heat, impact, short circuit, all are more dangerous with lipo.
 
Salty said:
Lipo can’t be made safe. You can reduce the risk, but if things go bad a lipo can make things go far worse than lead acid, and the threshold for starting the bad things is lower as well. Heat, impact, short circuit, all are more dangerous with lipo.
Click to expand...
Domenick said:
Since LiPo batteries have tighter charge and discharge constraints and GA charging systems are ripple- and glitch-prone, does the battery have internal circuitry enforcing the charge/discharge constraints and protecting the battery?
Click to expand...
You guys are using the abbreviation for lithium polymer (Lipo), but those are aren't the AeroLithium batteries, based on LiFePO4. The LFP batteries are safer than Lipo.
 
Safe? Relative concept to me. They are higher risk than lead-acid, so I think they need some extra care. Original cubs are less likely to catch fire post-crash than most other aircraft, because they don't have an electrical system at all. But we've traded the inherent risk of having an electrical system to get things like starters and radios. The same could be said for gasoline. In the air, certified aircraft are pretty good with fuel safety. But in a crash, not so much. There are similar issues. The in-flight charging risk is addressable. Trickier to handle impact resistance, but it's not impossible, and we already have that risk with lead-acid. The fire risk on impact is from the ignition of the fuel, not the battery itself, just in terms of area of coverage and energy level.

Actually I think the real danger for li-po's is in transport category aircraft. Boeing is or was using them in 787, in the 50lb range. Maybe they have them setup so if they catch fire, they'll burn their way out of the aircraft and fall before they cause the aircraft to fail. I don't think it's possible to design a safe container that weighs less than NiMH/NICd and would prevent causing external damage, but I could be wrong. I'm certain it isn't possible to design a battery pack incapable of failure. But maybe it's an acceptable risk.

Yep, speaking of LiPo. That's where I have my experience. No idea how the risks translate, but suspect they're closer than the manufacturer would like people to believe. Lithium is used in batteries because it's light and high energy. That reactivity is what makes it dangerous.
 
Albany Tom said:
Safe? Relative concept to me. They are higher risk than lead-acid, so I think they need some extra care. Original cubs are less likely to catch fire post-crash than most other aircraft, because they don't have an electrical system at all. But we've traded the inherent risk of having an electrical system to get things like starters and radios. The same could be said for gasoline. In the air, certified aircraft are pretty good with fuel safety. But in a crash, not so much. There are similar issues. The in-flight charging risk is addressable. Trickier to handle impact resistance, but it's not impossible, and we already have that risk with lead-acid. The fire risk on impact is from the ignition of the fuel, not the battery itself, just in terms of area of coverage and energy level.

Actually I think the real danger for li-po's is in transport category aircraft. Boeing is or was using them in 787, in the 50lb range. Maybe they have them setup so if they catch fire, they'll burn their way out of the aircraft and fall before they cause the aircraft to fail. I don't think it's possible to design a safe container that weighs less than NiMH/NICd and would prevent causing external damage, but I could be wrong. I'm certain it isn't possible to design a battery pack incapable of failure. But maybe it's an acceptable risk.

Yep, speaking of LiPo. That's where I have my experience. No idea how the risks translate, but suspect they're closer than the manufacturer would like people to believe. Lithium is used in batteries because it's light and high energy. That reactivity is what makes it dangerous.
Click to expand...

LiFePO4 are a quite a bit safer than LiPo batteries. They've been using them pretty heavily now in the boating world and they can be charged with the same profile an AGM battery, though a more specific charger is a little better for longevity. There have been very few fires caused by them, but they don't have quite the energy density as the LiPo batteries. From most of my research the failure rate of the LiFePO4 batteries is similar to AGM. The big thing with them is getting a good one with a good BMS that prevents overcharge.
 
bfmetcalf said:
LiFePO4 are a quite a bit safer than LiPo batteries. They've been using them pretty heavily now in the boating world and they can be charged with the same profile an AGM battery, though a more specific charger is a little better for longevity. There have been very few fires caused by them, but they don't have quite the energy density as the LiPo batteries. From most of my research the failure rate of the LiFePO4 batteries is similar to AGM. The big thing with them is getting a good one with a good BMS that prevents overcharge.
Click to expand...

That sounds similar to LiPo. LiPo's are in a lot of consumer devices that are subject to physical abuse, and with chargers that are built to the lowest possible cost. Similar to RC flying, but not as abusive. AGM are similar to gel cells, if I remember correctly, in that you use a constant current charge, then finish constant voltage. You can do the same thing LiPo, but the CC charge voltage can't exceed the max voltage for CV. Boat people are usually pretty smart about using good chargers, because they realize that a good charger is an investment in keeping their battery investment working better longer. RC airplane guys can be pretty cheap. Boats are going to have a lot of vibration I'd expect, but probably not so much high G impact as flying...guessing.
 
Albany Tom said:
That sounds similar to LiPo. LiPo's are in a lot of consumer devices that are subject to physical abuse, and with chargers that are built to the lowest possible cost. Similar to RC flying, but not as abusive. AGM are similar to gel cells, if I remember correctly, in that you use a constant current charge, then finish constant voltage. You can do the same thing LiPo, but the CC charge voltage can't exceed the max voltage for CV. Boat people are usually pretty smart about using good chargers, because they realize that a good charger is an investment in keeping their battery investment working better longer. RC airplane guys can be pretty cheap. Boats are going to have a lot of vibration I'd expect, but probably not so much high G impact as flying...guessing.
Click to expand...

You might be surprised by the beating batteries take in a boat doing 35-40 mph through 3' waves on Lake Erie or a bass boat running 70-75. They can really slam down a lot. I've actually felt the boat is rougher than a plane ride most the time.

Edit: I've heard of guys messing up their backs badly and permanently running bass boats in roughish water when they slam down.
 
bfmetcalf said:
You might be surprised by the beating batteries take in a boat doing 35-40 mph through 3' waves on Lake Erie or a bass boat running 70-75. They can really slam down a lot. I've actually felt the boat is rougher than a plane ride most the time.

Edit: I've heard of guys messing up their backs badly and permanently running bass boats in roughish water when they slam down.
Click to expand...

Yep, come to think of it I've heard horror stories about the offshore power boat racers. On the flying part, that's smooth. It's the crashing that's the problem. :) My only RC LiPo fire was from having some sort of in flight failure that resulted in an unrecoverable spin. Went straight down and the spring steel landing gear went through the soft battery case. I suppose if they can make the battery case strong enough to withstand more G's than people in their seats, then it's pretty reasonable. Again, though, the weakest link of either lithium or lead acid are probably those heavy gauge wires between the battery and first relay/solenoid. A fuse that can pass starting current isn't going to reduce the fire risk from a short from any full size aircraft battery.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top