New Avionics. Do I need a Yellow Tag?

nyoung

nyoung

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Nathan young
Hi All.

I bought a Narco AT165VS to replace the aging AT50A in my Cherokee. The box showed up last week and my mechanic is going to slide it in the tray, and do the transponder certs and logbook entries.

Question for the collective wisdom of POA: Do I need a yellow-tag, 8130, or some other form of documentation that proves the AT165 is certified to go onto the airframe? The box doesn't seem to contain anything beyond the transponder, and install/ops manuals.

Thanks.
 
Yellow tag simply says that an avionics tech looked at the box and made certain it works. You don't need one, although having one is a good idea, since it takes money to put the box in the aircraft.

As far as I know, you'll need a note in the logbooks for the installation and the certification. You should then be good for 24 months unless the thing breaks. Good luck.
 
Will he do prepare a weight and balance entry (probably neg) and 337 for the install? Will he amend the installed equipment list? Is he qualified to perform this swap-out? Do you have an owner's manual for the new box? POH supplement?
 
wabower said:
Will he do prepare a weight and balance entry (probably neg) and 337 for the install? Will he amend the installed equipment list? Is he qualified to perform this swap-out? Do you have an owner's manual for the new box? POH supplement?
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Picky, picky... you act like this is all technical, and like, stuff.
 
wabower said:
Will he do prepare a weight and balance entry (probably neg) and 337 for the install? Will he amend the installed equipment list? Is he qualified to perform this swap-out? Do you have an owner's manual for the new box? POH supplement?
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Don't need a owner's manual, I never had any for the boxes in my aircraft. Do you need a 337 for an avionics install? Can't recall ever seeing one, but I don't have my logbooks here.

Any qualified mechanic can do the install with the attendant paperwork. However, you do need an avionics tech to to the certification, and without it the box is dead weight. Might not even have a POH for a Cherokee, mine doesn't.
 
There should be some paperwork in the box showing that the new transponder is a certified part meeting the relevant TSO. Your mechanic/avionics shop cannot legally install the unit without that paper. After that, keep the paper with your aircraft records along with a copy of the 337 documenting the installation. There may also be an AFM Supplement for this unit; if so, the installer should add it to your existing AFM and note that in the logs and on the 337.
 
steingar said:
Yellow tag simply says that an avionics tech looked at the box and made certain it works.
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IIRC, a "yellow tag" only documents that the item is a certified part and where it came from, without any guarantee of the operational status of the item.
 
steingar said:
I stand corrected. Thanks Ron.
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I could be wrong -- memory, not documentaton, at work. But since you said something, here's a piece written by someone who really knows about this topic.
http://www.amtonline.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=1781

This case might also be illuminating:
http://ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/4810.PDF

What the OP really wants to see in that box is an "Airworthiness Release Certificate," FAA Form 8130-3. This is usually a white piece of paper, not a yellow cardboard tag. You'll see these with new items as well as items which have been repaired, overhauled, or rebuilt, and are being certified as airworthy for installation. The so-called "yellow tags" are generally tags produced by the shop doing the work which provide tracking information on where the part came from so its provenance can be established for use in other aircraft. However, those "yellow tags" do not (unless specifically stated on the tag and signed by an authorized individual) provide assurance that the part is currently airworthy.
 
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I think you are on this Ron. I've seen it used in its maintenance released role many times, and had it explained that it meant that the box worked on some avionics tech's bench at some point in time. Given that the document is used so informally, it is possible for it to mean something else I suppose. Caveat emptor in any event.
 
steingar said:
Don't need a owner's manual, I never had any for the boxes in my aircraft.

On a 1-10 scale, how many times to you think "I've never had any for my airplane" is a valid reason for failure to have required paperwork in an airplane?

Do you need a 337 for an avionics install?

I've never seen (a proper installation) without one, and expect to find one if I see a replacement unit of any kind in the panel.

Can't recall ever seeing one, but I don't have my logbooks here.

Any qualified mechanic can do the install with the attendant paperwork. However, you do need an avionics tech to to the certification, and without it the box is dead weight.

Might not even have a POH for a Cherokee, mine doesn't.
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Does that mean it shouldn't? How does a pilot know how to operate the equipment absent the manual? Does the equiment have any test functions? How would you know? If so, how would you know how to perform the test? Or whether the indications (if you could determine what the box was telling you) were correct or incorrect under the circumstances?

PS: I'm sitting here looking at the Pilot's Guide for the King KT 79 TXP, so if you have one of those in your airplane you might want to dig around for the instructions.
 
wabower said:
Does that mean it shouldn't? How does a pilot know how to operate the equipment absent the manual? Does the equiment have any test functions? How would you know? If so, how would you know how to perform the test? Or whether the indications (if you could determine what the box was telling you) were correct or incorrect under the circumstances?

PS: I'm sitting here looking at the Pilot's Guide for the King KT 79 TXP, so if you have one of those in your airplane you might want to dig around for the instructions.
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If you're telling me that you have an instruction manual for every box in every airplane you've ever bought or sold then you are the man and I am truly in awe. I only have experience with two aircraft, and neither came with any kind of documentation for the installed avionics whatsoever. For airplane number two I was able to download some materials.

What I really can't figure out is why I am required to have so much documentation for something that isn't required in the airplane in the first place.

Oh, and the POH only came into use in the mid 70's, after many Cherokees, including mine, were manufactured. I do have to have an up to date weight and balance, and if the mechanic puts a new box in my panel he'll have to alter it.
 
The question was what the guy installing different avionics in his airplane should do, not what the average rum-dum doop-de-doop Cherokee owner (you do have at least a Bo, don't you?:D) would do or would know about avionics or most anything else on his airplane other than the oil stick and the start switch.

Has anybody been jailed because they don't have the paperwork for all their boxes? Not in this county, AFAIK.

Do the boxes all have Owner's Guides/Manuals/Operating Instructions that should be part of the documentation? I think they do.

Do I have them all, and insist that any airplane I'm involved with have them? Yep, just one of many details I don't want working against me if I have to talk to the man. I know they can get me if they really want me, I just don't want to make it easier than necessary.

steingar said:
If you're telling me that you have an instruction manual for every box in every airplane you've ever bought or sold then you are the man and I am truly in awe. I only have experience with two aircraft, and neither came with any kind of documentation for the installed avionics whatsoever. For airplane number two I was able to download some materials.

What I really can't figure out is why I am required to have so much documentation for something that isn't required in the airplane in the first place.

Oh, and the POH only came into use in the mid 70's, after many Cherokees, including mine, were manufactured. I do have to have an up to date weight and balance, and if the mechanic puts a new box in my panel he'll have to alter it.
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Thanks guys, it is as clear as mud, isn't it?

Regarding 337. This particular installation is a direct swap for the existing AT50A. Should take less than 1 minute. I find it hard to believe that any FSDO thinks that is a 'major alteration', but who knows? I am looking fwd to the discussion with my A&P-IA on this subject...
 
wabower said:
The question was what the guy installing different avionics in his airplane should do, not what the average rum-dum doop-de-doop Cherokee owner (you do have at least a Bo, don't you?:D) would do or would know about avionics or most anything else on his airplane other than the oil stick and the start switch.

Has anybody been jailed because they don't have the paperwork for all their boxes? Not in this county, AFAIK.

Do the boxes all have Owner's Guides/Manuals/Operating Instructions that should be part of the documentation? I think they do.

Do I have them all, and insist that any airplane I'm involved with have them? Yep, just one of many details I don't want working against me if I have to talk to the man. I know they can get me if they really want me, I just don't want to make it easier than necessary.
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Wow, you certainly put me in my place. You dah man.
 
nyoung said:
Thanks guys, it is as clear as mud, isn't it?

Regarding 337. This particular installation is a direct swap for the existing AT50A. Should take less than 1 minute. I find it hard to believe that any FSDO thinks that is a 'major alteration', but who knows? I am looking fwd to the discussion with my A&P-IA on this subject...
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It doesn't need a Form 337. It will need a log book entry by an A&P. It will need a 91.413 check after install.
 
What is the determining factor re use of a 337? Many shops seem to use them for avionics installations, to the point that I have become accustomed to seeing them, along with a separate w&b entry showing the removed/installed equipment, even if the differences are negligible. The installation would seem to be "minor" to me, but evidently not to some of them. Is this a belt & suspenders approach?




Rotor&Wing said:
It doesn't need a Form 337. It will need a log book entry by an A&P. It will need a 91.413 check after install.
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wabower said:
What is the determining factor re use of a 337? Many shops seem to use them for avionics installations, to the point that I have become accustomed to seeing them, along with a separate w&b entry showing the removed/installed equipment, even if the differences are negligible. The installation would seem to be "minor" to me, but evidently not to some of them. Is this a belt & suspenders approach?
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That varies from district to district, and the mechanic or installing shop. My interpretation is a 337 has already been accomplished for a transponder install. This is a swap out of the unit of the same manufacturer from an older model to a newer model. I would assume the weight will be negligible. Since it uses the same tray, wiring harness and antenna already installed then a log book entry stating the swap and a 91.413 check and you're ready to go.

YMMV
 
Since it's a slide-in replacement, it's just a logbook entry, IIRC. But the shop that sold you the AT165 should have provided the "yellow tag" (aka 8310-3). Otherwise you need to spend the $$$ to have it blessed.

From Narco's website:

"Great for a fresh installation or as a Plug & Play replacement for the
Narco AT50-AT155 series. You can simply slide out your old Narco
transponder and slide in a new AT165 Value Series."

From another vendor:

"The AT 165/R Value Series is a lower cost digital transponder offered to replace the NARCO AT50-AT50A-AT150-AT155 transponders in an existing installation utilizing the already installed tray, cables and antenna."
 
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IIRC, a KLN 90 GPS (VFR only) tray will also accommodate KLN 90A (enroute IFR) and KLN90B (IFR enroute & terminal) and the avionics sales guys referred to it as plug and play as well.

Same paperwork answer?

murphey said:
Since it's a slide-in replacement, it's just a logbook entry, IIRC. But the shop that sold you the AT165 should have provided the "yellow tag" (aka 8310-3). Otherwise you need to spend the $$$ to have it blessed.

From Narco's website:

"Great for a fresh installation or as a Plug & Play replacement for the
Narco AT50-AT155 series. You can simply slide out your old Narco
transponder and slide in a new AT165 Value Series."

From another vendor:

"The AT 165/R Value Series is a lower cost digital transponder offered to replace the NARCO AT50-AT50A-AT150-AT155 transponders in an existing installation utilizing the already installed tray, cables and antenna."
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
IIRC, a KLN 90 GPS (VFR only) tray will also accommodate KLN 90A (enroute IFR) and KLN90B (IFR enroute & terminal) and the avionics sales guys referred to it as plug and play as well.

Same paperwork answer?
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Nope. IFR approval of a GPS is an entirely different circumstance.
 
murphey said:
But the shop that sold you the AT165 should have provided the "yellow tag" (aka 8310-3).
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One more time -- 8130-3's ain't usually yellow, and yellow cardboard tags ain't usually 8130-3's. Make sure the paper you get is the paper you need.
 
"The only FAA approved maintenance release under FAR Part 43, Appendix B is The FAA form 8130-3 a yellow tag does not provide any of the requirements for the return to service for avionics components. It’s all a myth and few yellow tags provide the information required by the FAA. And many yellow tags are placed on components removed from aircraft by A&P’s without the inspection required by the regulations, it is not satisfactory to turn the component on before removing it and then yellow tag the component as approved for return to service. The component must be tested and inspected according to the manufacturers specifications which cannot be performed any where else than in an FAA approved repair facility."
 
murphey said:
"The only FAA approved maintenance release under FAR Part 43, Appendix B is The FAA form 8130-3 a yellow tag does not provide any of the requirements for the return to service for avionics components. It’s all a myth and few yellow tags provide the information required by the FAA. And many yellow tags are placed on components removed from aircraft by A&P’s without the inspection required by the regulations, it is not satisfactory to turn the component on before removing it and then yellow tag the component as approved for return to service. The component must be tested and inspected according to the manufacturers specifications which cannot be performed any where else than in an FAA approved repair facility."
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Do you have a source for that quote?
 
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