New approach for consideration

[grattonja]

One approach that was suggested during some of the strings over the last week or two was the LOC/DME BC RWY 34L at RNO. It looks interesting, so I thought I would throw it up for consideration, as we have not looked at an approach for a while.

http://avn.faa.gov/d-tpp/0503/00346LDBC34L.pdf

http://download.aopa.org/iap/20050317/sw-4/rno_loc_dme_bc_rwy_34l.pdf

Even just reading this one at my desk is giving me a headache.

First, I-RNO North course for the missed approach. What am I going to see with my CDI needle, normal sensing or reverse? Obviously, on the inbound approach, the sensing will be reversed, as it is a BC approach. But I am flying the front course, outbound, as a missed, and that still confuses me. It is normal sensing, but flying it outbound should make it continue to be reverse sensing?

It looks like I only have two IAFs here, Spoon and Wagge. But there is a PT for traffic from the north. Where is the IAF for that, the localizer? Or would arrival at Wagge require procedure turn, as I do not see a No PT indication for anything at Wagge?

What is Vikes intersection? Why is it charted and what would we use it for? Okay, when I look at the various STars for this place, I did find a Vikes Star which uses Vikes. But there are a bunch of Stars for this place and most of the other intersections which are in play for these do not appear on this chart. Also, there is no transition from FMG, despite the fact that at least one Star uses FME. Why not?

There are take off minima, and a number of DPs, but no required performance indicated for the missed here. Is that because the missed procedure keeps you over fairly low terrain and gives you 13 miles to climb from 5060 to 10000?

An interesting approach, particularly for an East Coast pilot who is used to limited obstructions around the airport.

Usual questions, those above plus any that anyone else wants to add. Anyone flown this approach? Bruce C? I bet you have shot this one before.

Jim G

 

[AdamZ]

Jim:

Good use of the forum! I note that SPOON is a RADAR Fix, much like JUNIA when flying the back course at KPNE. I suspect it depends upon where you intercept the localizer. ATC would have to call SPOON and WAGGE you would get from your instruments. Also if Radar is out WAGGE would be the IAF to use.
I have no ideas what VIKES is for.

Adam Zucker

 

[kath]

First, I-RNO North course for the missed approach. What am I going to see with my CDI needle, normal sensing or reverse?

Still reverse sensing. Imagine you were flying a regular ILS... as you pass the transmitter and fly outbound, the sensing doesn't change. Same thing here. As you pass the transmitter nothing will change.
Put another way, the "shaded bit" is still to your left which means you've got reverse sensing. Usually the shaded bit is on the right.

It looks like I only have two IAFs here, Spoon and Wagge. But there is a PT for traffic from the north. Where is the IAF for that, the localizer? Or would arrival at Wagge require procedure turn, as I do not see a No PT indication for anything at Wagge?

I think your second idea is right. If there isn't a "noPT", then you have to do the procedure turn no matter where you come from. PT's aren't associated with particular IAF's, but "noPT"'s are.

Not sure about your other issues... I'll let others fill in.

--Kath

 

[ejensen]

VIKES is a fix on the enroute chart, 31 DME 227 from HZN VOR.

 

[grattonja]

Jim:

Good use of the forum! I note that SPOON is a RADAR Fix, much like JUNIA when flying the back course at KPNE. I suspect it depends upon where you intercept the localizer. ATC would have to call SPOON and WAGGE you would get from your instruments. Also if Radar is out WAGGE would be the IAF to use.
I have no ideas what VIKES is for.

Adam Zucker

Ok, you got me looking at Spoon more closely. It has a DME read from RNO. Would Spoon HAVE to be a Radar fix? Couldn't you id it with DME? I suppose the localizer is not going to be reliable out 22.3 miles, is it? So that probably answers my question. If you could get the localizer though, would the "Radar" designation on the plate mean you must have Radar to get it?

Jim G

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I was going to try to use the quote function to answer this Jim, but I'm giving up. I'll just try to answer things in the order you asked.

Do you have an HSI? Yes? Good. Put the head of the needle on the inbound bearing for the FRONT COURSE (164) and make all corrections toward the off course bar. Pass over the LOC antenna outbound on the miss? Still on the backcourse as far as the HSI is concerned and make corrections toward the off course bar. No HSI? Too bad. You want one. While on the back course with a standard issue OBS either inbound or outbound, make corrections away from the needle to center the needle. Confusing? That's the beauty of an HSI.

WAGGE is an IAF from the VIKES feeder. Fly the VIKES ONE through to WAGGE and you still execute the PT. If you fly the TARVR ONE arrival from SAC, OAL, or MVA all roads lead to TARVA and then it's the feeder to SPOON. After SPOON and with an approach clearance, decend to 9600 and fly the profile. No PT at WAGGE if you are on the feeder.

VIKES a jumping off point for arrivals (it may also be on the enroute chart but seeing as I don't have one handy I don't know) from overhead LLC. Not all STARs use the same fixes as what is on the approach plate or enroute charts (s) some fixes are STAR specific. Some STARs are turbojets only, some only for airplanes with VNAV. The more specialized an airplane becomes the more specific the STAR, or SID becomes. Why no arrival over FME for VIKES ONE? Maybe they route more jet traffic over LLC and they don't want to have to separate lots of mixed traffic.

Missed approaches have to meet a 40:1 clearance plane from MAP to holding fix. Look at the terrain on both sides of the missed approach course. You can't turn and have Required Obstacle Clearance (ROC) so you've got to drive straight ahead on the localizer (backside of the front course if you will) so you don'y stray into the rocks. You have to climb nearly 5000 feet in 13 miles, true. How's your density altitude performance? I calculate you need to climb 380 feet per nautical mile to get to the holding pattern at TAKLE. What would be the climb rate you'd need with a Skyhawk at, say 90 knots? Can you make it?

Yep, you bet it is even if you're from there. I'm not from there but I've flown it. On a nice day is pretty cool.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Ok, you got me looking at Spoon more closely. It has a DME read from RNO. Would Spoon HAVE to be a Radar fix? Couldn't you id it with DME? I suppose the localizer is not going to be reliable out 22.3 miles, is it? So that probably answers my question. If you could get the localizer though, would the "Radar" designation on the plate mean you must have Radar to get it?

Jim G

Both the LOC BC and the DME have Extended Service Volumes (ESV) that allow reception well beyond the normal range. SPOON is well within the ESV distance and altitude. SPOON can be radar identified but you've got to have DME to fly this SIAP. If you are asking does the aircraft need to be radar equipped to fly this approach, no. As the chart does not say RADAR REQUIRED it isn't required but ATC can ID SPOON if you need them to. After SPOON though, you have to be able to ID the stepdowns.

 

[bbchien]

I was going to try to use the quote function to answer this Jim, but I'm giving up. I'll just try to answer things in the order you asked.

JR at the bottom of each post are two buttons, "quote" and "reply (feather pen to paper). If you push Quote, you get the entire previous post between {quote} and {/quote} (here done with lparenthesis so as not to confuse the computer). You can break up the previous block and delete as you need, and close the section with {/quote}. Then add {quote} before the next block, closing it with {/quote}. You can even use copy/paste to move these seven component text blocks about as needed. Use the square brackets [] on the keys below the parenthesis for the real thing. If I do that in this message it'll be a real mess.

Do you have an HSI? Yes? Good. Put the head of the needle on the inbound bearing for the FRONT COURSE (164) and make all corrections toward the off course bar. Pass over the LOC antenna outbound on the miss? Still on the backcourse as far as the HSI is concerned and make corrections toward the off course bar. No HSI? Too bad. You want one. While on the back course with a standard issue OBS either inbound or outbound, make corrections away from the needle to center the needle. Confusing? That's the beauty of an HSI.

Ah, I haven't been able to afford one personally since the P3. We all had 'em then. "Chief, the no2 HSI isn't working right" Next day, new HSI.

WAGGE is an IAF from the VIKES feeder. Fly the VIKES ONE through to WAGGE and you still execute the PT. If you fly the TARVR ONE arrival from SAC, OAL, or MVA all roads lead to TARVA and then it's the feeder to SPOON. After SPOON and with an approach clearance, decend to 9600 and fly the profile. No PT at WAGGE if you are on the feeder.

This section edited at 8:34 p.m:

The Vikes Arrival Lost com procedure is to fly the Vikes Wagge terminal route; as there is no "no PT" marking, I would fly outbound to the PT and then inbound. I'm still thinking about what JR says here. "No PT at WAGGE if you are on the feeder" but this implies terminal radar and implies COM, I think.....but JR's probably right with that Vikes1 arrival lost com note....

Missed approaches have to meet a 40:1 clearance plane from MAP to holding fix. Look at the terrain on both sides of the missed approach course. You can't turn and have Required Obstacle Clearance (ROC) so you've got to drive straight ahead on the localizer (backside of the front course if you will) so you don'y stray into the rocks. You have to climb nearly 5000 feet in 13 miles, true. How's your density altitude performance? I calculate you need to climb 380 feet per nautical mile to get to the holding pattern at TAKLE. What would be the climb rate you'd need with a Skyhawk at, say 90 knots? Can you make it?

This is the hooker at most intermountain airports. I routinely calculate the gradient for the miss on an OEI basis. I can only climb 200 feet per nautical mile at gross, so if conditions are at minimums I will be landing OEI no matter what...or better yet, if I can plan 300 under gross, I will be making the miss. At full gross, my miss on OEI has to be 7400 feet. Moral: you get one try, pick an airport that is a "make" and make it stick.

Flown it once. Didn't miss. Next question: Radar is out and you are inside D6.0 at 6200 when the navaid goes down. What do you do?

 

[Fast n' Furious]

No PT if you're on the feeder from SPOON to WAGGE. VIKES to WAGGE it's time for a PT. No RADAR, no Com no problem. VIKES to WAAGE still needs the turn. SPOON to WAAGE ATC will not expect you to make a turn. Si?

 

[bbchien]

No PT if you're on the feeder from SPOON to WAGGE. VIKES to WAGGE it's time for a PT. No RADAR, no Com no problem. VIKES to WAAGE still needs the turn. SPOON to WAAGE ATC will not expect you to make a turn. Si?

Yes: P.T. on VIKES to WAGGE inbound. Anybody have the federal VIKES1 plate? The jepp note for lost comm is ambiguous. How am I gonna make that 102 degree turn withoug busting the loc w/o guidance? With ambiguity, and lost comm VIKES to WAGGE, it's a PT for me....

 

[Fast n' Furious]

You've got valid LOC available to you out to 25 NM at an altitude spread between 9600 and 23000 feet. At that distance the LOC is about seven miles wide on either side of the procedural center. I'm pretty sure even ex Navy guys can haul that boat around in that amount of space.

 

[bbchien]

Not us trashhaulers. Standard Rate, by NATOPS every time. WAGGE is 10.3 form the center. Means it's 2.8 miles wide. Standard rate at 170 kts with all four turning, just makes it if I start 2.5 degrees before the loc. We were not top guns. We were trashhaulers. It means I had to do some geometry. That's hard to do live...sigh.

Wanna get a rise off a base? Breakout on the ILS and call "ball". The frequency will be unusable for 30 seconds.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Enough of this IFR technical stuff. Trivia contest: Why is Mustang VOR named as it is?

Ed

 

[Fast n' Furious]

The closest post of reference on the ground is the Mustang Ranch. Good thing Bruce told me or I wouldn't have known.

 

[gibbons]

I'm going to guess it's named for the Mustang Ranch.

 

[grattonja]

I was going to try to use the quote function to answer this Jim, but I'm giving up. I'll just try to answer things in the order you asked.

. No HSI? Too bad. You want one. While on the back course with a standard issue OBS either inbound or outbound, make corrections away from the needle to center the needle. Confusing? That's the beauty of an HSI.


No HSI. I am a lowly Skyhawk/Archer renter still. I have flown stuff with an HSI but no real IFR work with one yet. However, the new 'Hawks have a decent autopilot with a reverse sensing button. That is probably how I would fly this. Let the AP do the work on it, I figure. I have had the pleasure of flying the BC loc at ABE and did not have a real problem with the reverse sensing, but that approach does not require reverse sensing on the missed as well. Nor terrain that can scare the pants off you.

Jim G

 

[ejensen]

Mustang Ranch?

OK, already answered. I should read all the replies first.

 

[grattonja]

<Flown it once. Didn't miss. Next question: Radar is out and you are inside <D6.0 at 6200 when the navaid goes down. What do you do?[/QUOTE] from Bruce C.


Sweat. Without radar and the localizer, you have no way to find Takle. Or the missed approach point either. Looks to me like I am very quickly switching my GPS to shoot what is left of the RNAV 34L.

You might be able to avoid a piece of the rock by going to the relevant departure procedure. Maybe.

Jim G

 

[grattonja]

The closest post of reference on the ground is the Mustang Ranch. Good thing Bruce told me or I wouldn't have known.

Amazing. The Mustang DP is one used to illustrate DPs as part of the Cessna/King training material. They never managed to mention why it is the Mustang VOR. Hmmmm?

Jim G

 

[grattonja]

Missed approaches have to meet a 40:1 clearance plane from MAP to holding fix. Look at the terrain on both sides of the missed approach course. You can't turn and have Required Obstacle Clearance (ROC) so you've got to drive straight ahead on the localizer (backside of the front course if you will) so you don'y stray into the rocks. You have to climb nearly 5000 feet in 13 miles, true. How's your density altitude performance? I calculate you need to climb 380 feet per nautical mile to get to the holding pattern at TAKLE. What would be the climb rate you'd need with a Skyhawk at, say 90 knots? Can you make it?

I make that a 560 to 575 ft per minute rate of climb to make around 380 feet per nm. Ok in my Skyhawk for the first couple of thousand feet, if density altitude not too bad on the day in question. After that, doubtful to unlikely.
Not such a good approach for even a 180 horse skyhawk, I suppose
Jim G