New ADF or DME?

J

JMessner

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JMessner
Hi all,

First post, not sure if this belongs here or in the IFR section. I just have a brief question. With most pilots using GPS fairly heavily these days, old-school radio navigation seems to be somewhat in decline. Most notably, I'm hearing less and less about ADF or DME. Does anybody still make good ADF/DME receivers for GA? And if so, are they able to feed into modern EFIS systems like G1000/G2000/G157,000,000?

Thanks!
 
Nope. They are yesterday's technology. DME transmitters are being gradually decommissioned - though a few will remain at major jetports to service the cattle haulers.
NDB's are all but gone (ya, ya, don't bother me with 'your airport' is still working)
I have a panel with both. Haven't used the ADF for real naviagation in many years. Listening to the ball game is about it.
The DME Narco 190 recently lost the middle digit on the readout and I am told there are none to be had.
Soooo, I am looking at installing a certified GPS - maybe a 430. Trouble is the old panel is just that - old. Likely will cost me 20 or 30 grand the instant anyone starts pulling it apart and moving things around (sigh)
 
Dr. O said:
Nope. They are yesterday's technology. DME transmitters are being gradually decommissioned - though a few will remain at major jetports to service the cattle haulers.
NDB's are all but gone (ya, ya, don't bother me with 'your airport' is still working)
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Some of this is accurate, but some is not.

There are not, to my knowledge, any new standalone ADF's or DME's on the market for light planes -- can't find them at any of the major avionics retailers. However, used DME's and ADF's remain available. DME is not being "gradually decommissioned" at this time in the USA, but NDB's are. Many DME's will go away with their collocated VOR's as the FAA starts reducing its VOR network over the next 30 years or so, but I've not seen one "decommissioned" yet, and ILS/LOC-associated DME's are not on the chopping block for now.

BTW, nothing "feeds" a G1000 -- it's an integrated system, and if you want ADF or DME, there are modules that are built for it. I imagine those are popular in the places in the world (especially Africa and Asia) where NDB's are still common, and often the only means for instrument operation. Aftermarket glass displays like the G500/G600 can take a feed from standalone units.
 
Dr. O said:
Nope. They are yesterday's technology. DME transmitters are being gradually decommissioned - though a few will remain at major jetports to service the cattle haulers.
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FYI, regarding DME, the transmitters are not going away, in fact the total number are increasing. As VOR/DME and VORTAC's are eliminated in the future, in general, the DME will remain at its current location and there are plans to increase the total number of DME's. Many airline FMS units use DME/DME RNAV systems for enroute navigation and when GPS is installed, as a backup RNAV navigation system.
 
Also, you can have a good IFR GPS installed in a legacy panel for about $5K parts and labor. Not a top-of-the-line, super-duper touch-screen WAAS/GPS/NAV/COMM unit, but a good IFR GPS nevertheless.
 
Ron Levy said:
Also, you can have a good IFR GPS installed in a legacy panel for about $5K parts and labor. Not a top-of-the-line, super-duper touch-screen WAAS/GPS/NAV/COMM unit, but a good IFR GPS nevertheless.
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I was able to install a /G kln89b and a ky197 for slightly less than 5K. That also included some "while we're in there" things. It took some shopping to find a transplant system and an installer to do it.
 
Panel space can become a consideration as well.

When I reconfigured the radio stack in the old Cessna 180 a few years ago to include a 430W, the side-by-side stack space was adequate to hold the KN-64 DME that was already wired, so it stayed. Other than idle curiosity I don't think it has been used for 10 minutes since. As I contemplate an Aspen and conversion of the 696 to panel-mount, the stack needs to shrink to a single-width configuration so the DME will be odd man out.
 
Given that I occasionally travel in areas subject to GPS jamming NOTAMs, I've made a conscious decision to retain DME. If one knew just how fragile GPS can be....
 
Dr. O said:
Nope. They are yesterday's technology. DME transmitters are being gradually decommissioned ...
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Cite your source. I've seen an increase in them as a replacement for marker beacon transmitters.
 
I ripped out the KR86 from my plane when I put the GPS in. I did add XM Audio so I could still hear the ball game. I retained my KN64 DME. However, I only turn it on for amusement. It has been of no operational use to me. I've got a GNS 480 (WAAS) and an SL/30 for nav otherwise.
 
BK had a booth at the TCF show yesterday, but I'll admit I didn't bother to check it out. Somebody said they had a 770 on display. :dunno::yawn:
 
bartmc said:
I was able to install a /G kln89b and a ky197 for slightly less than 5K. That also included some "while we're in there" things. It took some shopping to find a transplant system and an installer to do it.
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Not many new KLN89B's out there, and I'd consider them "fair" rather than "good" like the KLN94 to which I was tacitly referring, but yes, you can probably get a used 89B installed for less than $4K.
 
I believe in some places in europe an ADF and DME is still required for IFR certification. Garmin makes the modules to plug into the G1000/G2000 and will sell them to you for some silly amount of money.

Found it in the export price list for the SR22T

DME $12,900
ADF $8,900

Beech price is likely to be in a similar range.
 
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Trouble with an old kln89b is that the database won't be available forever.....
 
bbchien said:
Trouble with an old kln89b is that the database won't be available forever.....
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There's no technical reason why it couldn't. Just planned obsolescence.

They already don't fit the entire U.S. in the memory card, if I remember correctly though.
 
bbchien said:
Trouble with an old kln89b is that the database won't be available forever.....
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Where 2020 ADS-B rules require some unit (a UAT or maybe a good transponder) pump GPS position data out, it may be wise to verify that old GPS has outputs compatible with what may be used for that purpose.

One of the thiings that airlines do that GA is weak on, is insist on open specification input/output data bus formats. Garmin is not compatible with everythinig out there either.

Standard formats allow equipment manufacturers to compete, lowering costs. It also gives aircraft operators more different upgrade choices.
 
Re: "..... areas subject to GPS jamming NOTAMs"

What are ".... areas subject to GPS jamming NOTAMs"?
 
Marc CYBW said:
Re: "..... areas subject to GPS jamming NOTAMs"

What are ".... areas subject to GPS jamming NOTAMs"?
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Areas where the military and their contractors are playing with some of their toys that are designed to disrupt the opposing teams GPS operated devices.
 
kontiki said:
Where 2020 ADS-B rules require some unit (a UAT or maybe a good transponder) pump GPS position data out, it may be wise to verify that old GPS has outputs compatible with what may be used for that purpose.

One of the thiings that airlines do that GA is weak on, is insist on open specification input/output data bus formats. Garmin is not compatible with everythinig out there either.

Standard formats allow equipment manufacturers to compete, lowering costs. It also gives aircraft operators more different upgrade choices.
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No non-WAAS GPS is ever going to be acceptable for feeding an ADS-B out transponder or UAT.
 
Last I heard, G1000s had an ADF option. So yes.

In the rest of the world outside of the US, NDBs are still common. Russia has a lot of dual-NDB approaches, for instance.
 
In the rest of the world outside of the US, NDBs are still common. Russia has a lot of dual-NDB approaches, for instance.
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Just ask Ron Brown.
 
Do the 430 series garmins have DME integrated with their nav radios?

Would be nice. Have never thought to check.
 
dell30rb said:
Do the 430 series garmins have DME integrated with their nav radios?

Would be nice. Have never thought to check.
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The 'DME like' display on the 430 runs off the GPS, not a DME interrogator.
 
gismo said:
No non-WAAS GPS is ever going to be acceptable for feeding an ADS-B out transponder or UAT.
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I think you are missing my point. At a recent local meeting Garmin admitted they used some proprietary data bus interfaces other manufacturers weren't compatible with. The definition of their bus is probably controlled intellectual property by their legal department.

ARINC 429 is a standard that the majority of the larger airlines and airframe OEMs insist on for certain interfaces. If Collins just invented their own proprietary bus format for FMS data, no airframer would want to put it on their aircraft, and likely no airline would want it either.

I'm not sure where your WAAS comment comes from. Actually Honeywell did claim they had achieved FAA ADS-B performance standards with a GPS-IRU recursive system of some sort (No WAAS). This was back in 2008, when the final ADS-B rule was published.

The FAA/RTCA specs for ADS-B are intentionally performance based so as not to pigeon hole the industry into any specific technology. I don't know if Honeywell or anyone else wants to develop, certify and market that approach, but it has been done, and will be easier and easier as time goes on.

I was told by the FAA at a post rule meeting that WAAS was how current systems guarantee they meet the availability requirements for the required accuracy. Understand that the accuracy of the GPS constellation coverage is not always the same at every latitude, depending of course on how many satellites are active in the constellation.
 
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