New AC-130 Ghostrider A Total Loss After Departing Controlled Flight

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by ElPaso Pilot, Nov 17, 2015.

  1. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Pattern Altitude

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    Oopsie.



    That's a big bird to "tumble inverted".



    Twice.



    http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/brand-new-ac-130-ghostrider-a-total-loss-after-going-in-1743122173



    http://www.afmc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123462877



    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...08/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter



    http://www.c-130hercules.net/forums/topic/8166-c-130-news-first-ac-130j-prototype-declared-loss/







    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
  2. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

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    Having the #4 engine missing entirely kinda doesn't help....
     
  3. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Pattern Altitude

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    Hmmm.... look inboard just a little bit more.
     
  4. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies En-Route

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    FYI... not actually a picture of it inverted.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

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    LOL You're right, I totally missed it.
     
  6. pigpenracing

    pigpenracing En-Route

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    We all thought ElPaso pilot was up there getting pictures of it inverted at 15,000 feet.
     
  7. warthog1984

    warthog1984 Cleared for Takeoff

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    "Hit by unsecured equipment"...

    Sounds like somebody got a 155mm knock upside the head. That would definitely cause disorientation and confusion!
     
  8. Maciej

    Maciej Line Up and Wait

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    So the pilot put the AC-130 into an unintentional spin, damn.
     
  9. JCranford

    JCranford En-Route

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    "...departed controlled flight..."

    Thats a stupid way to phrase that
     
  10. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Pattern Altitude

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    On two separate occurrences. This one exceeded flap speeds by 100 knots.
     
  11. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    see what happens when ya slip with flaps!
     
  12. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Maybe so, but it's a phrase everyone in flight test and tactical aviation is familiar with.

    Trying to find the actual report. Should be an interesting read.

    Nauga,
    who has the T-shirt
     
  13. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Might be a military pilot thing, but I have heard that used and it makes sense to me anyway.

    Sounds like a spin with an ugly entry and recovery. A spin isn't really controlled flight, I mean you have some control and you can enter/exit the spin but thats about it.

    I'm guessing the 3.19G was negative and that was what destroyed the airframe. I would hope it could handle 3.19 positive G's
     
  14. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Definitely could have something to do with it! Could have lost elevator authority and entered an accelerated stall while slipping.. that will turn you on your back very quickly.

    Being a new gunship the thing is probably loaded down heavier and maybe different CG than the normal C130 profile.
     
  15. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Yeah, especially considering the disorientation comment. Did he skid when he was supposed to slip, or did he forget to get off (or stood harder on) the rudder when the low wing started to rise?:dunno: One of the two had to happen to end up in a spin entry with the nose pointed at the ground. I wonder how hard it snapped over? That's a lot of P-Factor out on on those wings.:eek:
     
  16. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I was surprised at the out of service over stress with 3.19g.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
  17. Maciej

    Maciej Line Up and Wait

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    I'm curious how in the world they'd get to that many negative Gs on an upright spin.
     
  18. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    No it would have been positive on the recovery.
     
  19. TangoWhiskey

    TangoWhiskey Touchdown! Greaser!

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    :yes: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

    You win.
     
  20. Maciej

    Maciej Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah, I know, I was quoting dell30rb questioning his assumption it was negative Gs.
     
  21. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Yeah, even inverted spin, unless you recover inverted will max out around -1 I think.
     
  22. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That is actually ALOT of stress for an airframe that size.
     
  23. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So....apparently you CAN spin an airplane from a slip...
     
  24. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I understand, but for the service it is intended for, it seems low.
     
  25. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    I'm sure this was no traditional upright spin, it was an unintentional spin. If you enter one from an accelerated stall while uncoordinated, as opposed to waiting for your airspeed to decay and then steadily pulling back on the elevator, the entry is more abrupt. It basically rolls you on your back, then the nose goes down and it gets to spinning if you continue to hold the pro-spin controls. This is my experience from a cub anyway.

    While its probably right to assume the 3.19 G was from the recovery and positive G, it seems unlikely that 3.19 would stress it to the point of unusable?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
  26. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Yep, establish a slip at about 1.1 VSo then yank back on the elevator real quick and hold it back. You'll do a wallowing roll to the direction you are holding the rudder. It happens slow enough if you neutralize the controls you wont roll over or spin.

    Do that in a skid and the plane will tuck into a spin real fast though. The wing drops and the nose goes straight for the ground.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
  27. Maciej

    Maciej Line Up and Wait

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    You mean it becomes FUN! :rofl:

    [​IMG]
     
  28. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I haven't seen anything to indicate this was a spin and not just post-departure gyrations. It also doesn't read like an accelerated stall, it was entered from a steady-heading sideslip, a flight test technique more or less like a slipped approach but in level flight. *Any* airplane will depart if you exceed the critical combination of angle of attack and sideslip at any given condition. And it wasn't just 3.2g, it was also a 100-knot overspeed and the *second* event in the airplane's recent history.

    I'd be pretty reluctant to extrapolate GA airplane spin and/or spin entry characteristics to a C-130.

    Nauga,
    flopping over the top
     
  29. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    I think it would have been some form of a spin, the plane is uncoordinated, slow. Departure from contolled flight in these circumstances means it is stalled, if you stall when uncoordinated, that's the entry phase of a spin.

    I know a C130 is probably very different from a cub, but the wings/elevator/rudder are the basic shapes and are in the same places.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
  30. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies En-Route

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    I'd think it'd be very similar to a Cessna 120 or 140, afterall:
    C120, C130, C140 :)
     
  31. docmirror

    docmirror Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ebay.com:


    2015 USAF Ghostrider Gunship
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  32. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    From an FAA standpoint it is actually an L-382J
     
  33. comanche pilot

    comanche pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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  34. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Pattern Altitude

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    Let us know if you find it. Curious as to how much skin was buckled, helping drive the write off decision.
     
  35. nauga

    nauga Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Will do. The AF seems to be a little more open with reports lately. Just takes time. In that it was (reportedly) a flying qualities test there might be better data available than you usually find in an report like this. Once can hope.

    Nauga,
    and his orange wire
     
  36. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The board will probably release a public report, but there could be a portion of the report that will not be approved for public release (and there will be valid reasons for that).
     
  37. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yep, my plane can "depart" during a high slip as well.

    "We do not recommend slipping as a crosswind or descent procedure in the Velocity, it could turn into a potentially dangerous situation.

    First, there is the possibility of stalling a winglet which could result in a departure. Secondly, when slipping an aircraft with swept wings, the wing opposite the direction that the aircraft is being slipped, or the forward rear wing, is more perpendicular to the relative wind,this gives the leading wing more leverage and more lift than the trailing wing, thus allowing the possibility that the aircraft could be forced into a stall during exaggerated cross-control and slow flight. Thirdly, with the majority of the fuselage being forward of the wings, there is a chance that the fuselage could blank out the wind to the trailing wing.
    If you insist on slipping or cross-controlling your Velocity, do it at a safe altitude. The best advice is do not do cross-controls or slips in a Velocity. Other than this, flying the Velocity is very conventional."
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
  38. docmirror

    docmirror Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This is part of how one spins a Vari-eze. Yes, I have done it, and it's rather messy. My advice is to follow their advice and don't slip a canard type plane. Or, if you do want to do it, have a lot of altitude and a parachute as a backup.
     
  39. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It almost sounds like in the description, that the aircraft could go on its back in a slip. Done them before at altitude with do problems.

    I'd imagine in the Vari you had a pretty good aft CG to get it to spin? I've kicked full pedal back and forth with full aft stick in canard stall and couldn't get mine to spin. Only way I think I could is if I pitched near vertical to stall the main wing and kick pedal simultaneously.
     
  40. docmirror

    docmirror Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm not going to elaborate even though very few people fly canard planes. Just - be careful what you wish for. If you are 'successful' the outcome may not be to your liking. I commend you for exploring the flight envelope of your plane, but at some point you need to stop and decide that there is just no way in heck you are ever going to get in that flight regime under any condition and let it go.