Never Trust a Log book

[el con]

I bought a plane a couple of years ago. Had a different mechanic do a pre buy ,a few items to fix, but current on any ADs. AOPA did a check, checked with NTSB, that only showed a little mishap on a slippery runway back in 1978. The plane was advertised as having a major overhaul only 39 hrs on it , 4 new milleniums on it,new cam,a new prop, it had decent radios,auto pilot ,stormscope, ok paint and ok interior. Sounded good to me and I was anxious to get my training started.
Fast forward 4 years ,280 hrs. later. Checking plane for wifes preflight(pinch hitter) ,pull prop through and hear a hissing, call mech. for comp. test, yep 32 lbs, pull cyl. yep bad valve. The plane has always leaked more oil than I would like so let's pull it apart and reseal the cases and what goes along with it.
Well glad I did, as it turns out, after only 280hrs. from a major, it has a bent crank,cam worn needing grind, worn out lifters, 3 rods worn beyond minimum, bad valve in one cyl, 64 lbs. comp on another.
Hmmm, your airplane is only as good as your logs books state, and your long books are only as good as the info put in them.
The guy at the crank shop says no doubt a ""prop strike" and a good one at that, well I know I didn't hit anything.
Now looking back, Hmmm, a new prop why?, at third annual and a new mechanic hey this is not the original spinner and bulkhead, not sure what its from,Hmm at 150 hrs, we had a propseal go and then another when checking the bad cyl.
Well it all adds up now!!! I wish I was smarter back then. Another case of buyer beware. But this put some lives at risk! The story will continue as the local fsdo has some interest in this sad story, they said this is more common than you would think and they will be checking up on this seller and his mechanic. Well, time to get out the wallet

 

[ScottM]

ooh that really stinks.

When I was out shopping for a plane I found a couple of log books that did not look right. Seems there are lots of unscrupulous sellers and mechanics out there. I am just glad you found the problems on the ground instead of in the air.

 

[nyoung]

Sorry to hear about this. Definitely one of the horror stories of aviation.

 

[AdamZ]

Brad, I find it hard to belive that something this big was not known by the seller! What the heck was a slippery runway mishap?? If your A&P can say within a reasonable degree of certanity that this damage existed when you purchased the plan and that any reasonable A&P should have known about it when the repairs were done then I'd think you would be able to claim that the seller defrauded you and should be responsible for the damgages or part of the damages that you suffered. Yea the purchase was 4 years ago but in many states fraud of concealment extends statutes of limitations. I would probably be a bit agressive with the seller if your A&P tells you that these damages must have been known.

 

[murphey]

Y'know, that $5 or so to the FAA for the CD of 337s and such on any airplane you're looking at becomes a really important (and cheap!) verification of the logbooks. Of course this assumes that the work was properly filed with the FAA....

 

[Tom-D]

Some thing stinks...........

Rods don't wear, they get resized and rebushed and may get too small, to be returned to service.
Bent Crank ? with out a noticeable vib?

I think you just became some bodies 401K

 

[Tom-D]

Y'know, that $5 or so to the FAA for the CD of 337s and such on any airplane you're looking at becomes a really important (and cheap!) verification of the logbooks. Of course this assumes that the work was properly filed with the FAA....

Here is a question for the collective thinkers.

The 337 form is filled out by the A&P mechanic, returned to service by the A&P-IA and a copy is sent to the FAA to be placed into the aircraft history records, a copy is given to the owner, ad a copy is saved by the A&P-IA.

how long must the owner keep the 337?
How long is the A&P-IA required to keep his copy?

 

[John Collins]

Here is a question for the collective thinkers.

The 337 form is filled out by the A&P mechanic, returned to service by the A&P-IA and a copy is sent to the FAA to be placed into the aircraft history records, a copy is given to the owner, ad a copy is saved by the A&P-IA.

how long must the owner keep the 337?
How long is the A&P-IA required to keep his copy?

The owner is required to keep the 337 as a part of the permanent records for the aircraft for the airframe or as long as the propellor, engine, or appliance is installed in the aircraft. See FAR 91.417.

The IA keeps a record for his own use and is not required to keep a copy.

 

[John Collins]

I bought a plane a couple of years ago. Had a different mechanic do a pre buy ,a few items to fix, but current on any ADs. AOPA did a check, checked with NTSB, that only showed a little mishap on a slippery runway back in 1978. The plane was advertised as having a major overhaul only 39 hrs on it , 4 new milleniums on it,new cam,a new prop, it had decent radios,auto pilot ,stormscope, ok paint and ok interior. Sounded good to me and I was anxious to get my training started.
Fast forward 4 years ,280 hrs. later. Checking plane for wifes preflight(pinch hitter) ,pull prop through and hear a hissing, call mech. for comp. test, yep 32 lbs, pull cyl. yep bad valve. The plane has always leaked more oil than I would like so let's pull it apart and reseal the cases and what goes along with it.
Well glad I did, as it turns out, after only 280hrs. from a major, it has a bent crank,cam worn needing grind, worn out lifters, 3 rods worn beyond minimum, bad valve in one cyl, 64 lbs. comp on another.
Hmmm, your airplane is only as good as your logs books state, and your long books are only as good as the info put in them.
The guy at the crank shop says no doubt a ""prop strike" and a good one at that, well I know I didn't hit anything.
Now looking back, Hmmm, a new prop why?, at third annual and a new mechanic hey this is not the original spinner and bulkhead, not sure what its from,Hmm at 150 hrs, we had a propseal go and then another when checking the bad cyl.
Well it all adds up now!!! I wish I was smarter back then. Another case of buyer beware. But this put some lives at risk! The story will continue as the local fsdo has some interest in this sad story, they said this is more common than you would think and they will be checking up on this seller and his mechanic. Well, time to get out the wallet

I am sorry you had to learn this lesson the hard way. Often, a good mechanic can determine this as part of the pre-buy. Prop changes are often an indication of a prop strike. Run away from a field overhaul of an engine not accomplished by a reputable shop.

 

[Bob Noel]

Sometimes the parts of the airplane don't match the logs. When doing a major overhaul I discovered that the S/N of the prop didn't match the logs. Don't know why, but don't really care anymore. As part of my overhaul I sent the prop to New England Prop to "overhaul" it and re-pitch it.

 

[Tom-D]

The owner is required to keep the 337 as a part of the permanent records for the aircraft for the airframe or as long as the propellor, engine, or appliance is installed in the aircraft. See FAR 91.417.

The IA keeps a record for his own use and is not required to keep a copy.

91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§ 91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:


(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods
prescribed:
(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained
until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after
the work is performed.

(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§ 91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:
(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration
and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records
must include— yada yada

 

[Ken Ibold]

There are a lot of minor accidents that are never reported and the repairs never logged. There are a lot of unscrupulous mechanics. There are a lot of owners who do their own work behind a closed hangar door. There are a lot of owners who pressure well-intentioned mechanics into pencil whipping inspections.

Face it, in aviation, as in the rest of the world, there are people who lie, cheat and steal. Sorry you had to be victimized by one.

 

[EdFred]

Here is a question for the collective thinkers.

The 337 form is filled out by the A&P mechanic, returned to service by the A&P-IA and a copy is sent to the FAA to be placed into the aircraft history records, a copy is given to the owner, ad a copy is saved by the A&P-IA.

how long must the owner keep the 337?
How long is the A&P-IA required to keep his copy?

That makes the assumption that the A&P/IA actually fills out and files a 337.

 

[gismo]

That sux Brad. On the "glass half full" side, at least the engine didn't come apart when you were flying over Lake Michigan.

 

[SCCutler]

Y'know, I understand the urge to do anything reasonable to save money.

Key word: "reasonable."

Too bad, Brad. Glad you're safe.

 

[Ted]

Sorry you found so many problems, Brad, but concur I'm glad that you're safe and it didn't cause you any problems.

 

[el con]

Some thing stinks...........

Rods don't wear, they get resized and rebushed and may get too small, to be returned to service.
Bent Crank ? with out a noticeable vib?

I think you just became some bodies 401K

Something about them to narrow?? Bent flange that affects where the front seal runs also, and funny enough not much vibration.

 

[el con]

Here is a question for the collective thinkers.

The 337 form is filled out by the A&P mechanic, returned to service by the A&P-IA and a copy is sent to the FAA to be placed into the aircraft history records, a copy is given to the owner, ad a copy is saved by the A&P-IA.

how long must the owner keep the 337?
How long is the A&P-IA required to keep his copy?

I was told 2 years by FSDO inspector

 

[el con]

Thank goodness the crankcase was sent to Divco and checked out ok, refaced half's line bore crank and cam, no cracks to weld. Only $700 ,what a deal. At least some good news.

 

[gismo]

Thank goodness the crankcase was sent to Divco and checked out ok, refaced half's line bore crank and cam, no cracks to weld. Only $700 ,what a deal. At least some good news.

I already said the good news is that you and the plane aren't sitting on the bottom of Lake Michigan. The limits on your repair costs are just icing on that cake.

 

[CJones]

That stinks, Brad.

Maybe for 6Y9 next year, we all need to pay the prev. owner a little 'visit'. You know.. the broken knee-caps kind.

 

[EdFred]

That stinks, Brad.

Maybe for 6Y9 next year, we all need to pay the prev. owner a little 'visit'. You know.. the broken knee-caps kind.

You're closer to him now, than if you were at 6Y9

 

[CJones]

You're closer to him now, than if you were at 6Y9

Excellent. Then ya'll come down here, and we'll load up the Jeep and roll through his yard redneck style!

 

[el con]

I already said the good news is that you and the plane aren't sitting on the bottom of Lake Michigan. The limits on your repair costs are just icing on that cake.

When my wife found out the repair cost I almost did end up at the bottom of Lake Michigan
$15,000 engine repair + $15,000 of jewelry for her is now a very expensive repair

 

[el con]

To finish this thread off:
I am now finding some fun doing some parts shopping, buying what I want to go into this engine. I do feel good about flying 1270T safely into the future with a reliable, safe,and an almost brand spanking new 0-360.
Expensive yes ,but I'm worth ---err ahh ,I mean my wifes safety comes first:wink2:

 

[BillTIZ]

Of course this assumes that the work was properly filed with the FAA....

And there in lies the rub...

 

[bbchien]

And it is for uncontrollables like this that I do not take piston singles out over that cold, huge lake. One exception: I used to do it in a turbo'd Mooney, way up high, that I owned since FRMAN. I waited until about 100 hours had passed.....

 

[Ted]

And it is for uncontrollables like this that I do not take piston singles out over that cold, huge lake. One exception: I used to do it in a turbo'd Mooney, way up high, that I owned since FRMAN. I waited until about 100 hours had passed.....

I wouldn't trust a turbine a whole lot more than a single. I realize their reputation is better and you can go higher, but the experience of friends with them has indicated that they do, in fact, fail.

Give me two, please. But I have flown singles over the Great Lakes.

 

[EdFred]

I wouldn't trust a turbine a whole lot more than a single. I realize their reputation is better and you can go higher, but the experience of friends with them has indicated that they do, in fact, fail.

Give me two, please. But I have flown singles over the Great Lakes.

Turbo. Get to ~18k and you can glide from the midpoint to the beach. Although, I did have enough of a tailwind once that I did not have a dry point at 11k in the Comanche.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Turbo. Get to ~18k and you can glide from the midpoint to the beach.

I'm VERY happy that the DA40 will easily glide to the shore at some points. At the MTW-MBL crossing, it only needs 10,500 to be able to make a shore. A little higher, and FAH-HIC is do-able too.

Although, I did have enough of a tailwind once that I did not have a dry point at 11k in the Comanche.

Wind does not change the altitude required to be able to make shore - It merely changes your turn-back point. Extreme example: Tailwind equal to Vg, your turnback point is the moment you cross the shoreline... But if you were high enough to glide x miles equal to halfway across the lake, since your groundspeed will be 2Vg you'll be able to glide 2x miles with the tailwind.

Now, this is somewhat idealized - If you did have a tailwind equal to Vg, you could make it back to shore slightly after crossing by pushing down into a steep descent and increasing your airspeed significantly above Vg, but you'd eat up your altitude in a hurry. OTOH, if you continued forward, you could slow to minimum sink speed and glide a little farther. So, a high wind does increase your total glide range by a little bit, but not by as much as you might think at first.

This gives me some ideas for some flight testing... Hmmm.

 

[EdFred]

I'm VERY happy that the DA40 will easily glide to the shore at some points. At the MTW-MBL crossing, it only needs 10,500 to be able to make a shore. A little higher, and FAH-HIC is do-able too.



Wind does not change the altitude required to be able to make shore - It merely changes your turn-back point. Extreme example: Tailwind equal to Vg, your turnback point is the moment you cross the shoreline... But if you were high enough to glide x miles equal to halfway across the lake, since your groundspeed will be 2Vg you'll be able to glide 2x miles with the tailwind.

Now, this is somewhat idealized - If you did have a tailwind equal to Vg, you could make it back to shore slightly after crossing by pushing down into a steep descent and increasing your airspeed significantly above Vg, but you'd eat up your altitude in a hurry. OTOH, if you continued forward, you could slow to minimum sink speed and glide a little farther. So, a high wind does increase your total glide range by a little bit, but not by as much as you might think at first.

This gives me some ideas for some flight testing... Hmmm.

I ran the numbers both ways. I had no dry point.