Negotiating ATC instructions in Bravo airspace

azure

azure

Final Approach
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Messages
8,293
Location
Varmint Country
Display Name
Display name:
azure
In the thread on VFR Flight Following I posted a glowing report last night of my experience flying down to Columbus and back yesterday on a VFR flight plan using another poster's clever method of getting the plan out of FSS's system and directly into ATC's. Whether that was the reason or not, I also got cleared into the DTW Bravo in both directions which at the time I was quite happy about. However, this morning my right ear is telling me that maybe that wasn't such a great idea or that maybe I should have tried harder to work things to my benefit with DTW Approach on the way back.

Here's what happened. I was coming back over Lake Erie and at just about the feet wet point, Toledo handed me off to Detroit. After checking in I advised the controller that I was requesting clearance through the Bravo and was told to stand by, and I waited for most of the way across the lake. I was at 7500 feet. I always plan to arrive at pattern altitude a few miles out descending at 500 fpm or less, because I have trouble clearing my ears on descent anyway and was just getting over a cold (I know, it wasn't probably a great idea to be flying). Anyway at 150 knots ground speed in the descent (the 182 is more like 135, but that margin lets me descend a little more slowly) I need 30 nm to get down comfortably to 1500 feet which is (roughly) the pattern altitude at VLL. So I wasn't concerned when I didn't hear back from the controller until about 5 miles south of the Bravo. Worst case, if he denies me, I climb over the top of the Bravo (8000 MSL). Not a good outcome, as I'd have to pass my destination or reroute before I could start my descent, but I'd get there without busting airspace. What happened though, is he came back with "Nxxxxx cleared into the Bravo airspace, enter the Bravo at 4500". I read back the instruction and tried to comply, but yikes! Even at 120 knots, to descend 3000 feet in 5 miles is a 1200 fpm descent, not at all comfortable. I did my best for about 90 seconds, at about 1000 fpm and then came back and advised the controller that I wasn't sure I could make it down to 4500 by the edge of the airspace. He modified the instruction to "Nxxxxx enter the Bravo airspace descending to 4500" and that made me happy. But I paid for that quick descent -- my ears took over an hour to clear once I'd landed and even this morning it feels as if my right ear isn't quite clear, it's popping and my voice sounds a bit muffled in that ear as if there was water in it (no noticeable hearing loss though). Yep, I'll see an ENT if it doesn't clear in a couple of days. I carry an oxymetazoline nasal spray for emergencies but wasn't expecting this and didn't have it handy --- was probably too late by then anyway.

So my question is: would it have been better to just say "unable" and gone to Plan B? Or "unable 4500 by edge of Bravo, request slower descent"? I thought about it but was afraid he would just tell me to stay out of his airspace and I would be at Plan B anyway. I also didn't want to surprise the controller by doing wide S turns or other maneuvers to give myself time to descend, and give him an excuse to dump me in Canadian airspace. But it sounded as if once he had worked me in, he was willing to accommodate me within reason. This is only the fourth time I've gone through the DTW Bravo and I'm a little timid and unsure of what I can reasonably ask for when working with them. Hoping for some recommendations (or criticism) from more experienced folks.
 
I think the best approach is just to ask for exactly what you want. If your primary need is for a <500fpm descent rate, ask for that specifically. Otherwise ATC is just going to have to guess what you want.
 
MikePapa said:
I think the best approach is just to ask for exactly what you want. If your primary need is for a <500fpm descent rate, ask for that specifically. Otherwise ATC is just going to have to guess what you want.
Click to expand...

Agreed -- "Unable..." followed by what you want/need almost always results in an amendment.
 
"Copy cleared into the Bravo, however unable to enter at 4500. reguest to enter the bravo in a descent to 4500, out of 7500 now"
 
In this case, the controller was clearly working with you to accommodate your request. There is no harm in asking for a revised clearance like you did, in fact it's much safer (and more comfortable). Personally if they could only take me at 4,500 feet, I would advise that I'd be circling a mile or two outside the Bravo down to 4,500 and would then turn on course. More than likely though, they will clear you into the Bravo at a higher altitude, but descending to the assigned if traffic permits.
 
If you simply say "unable" you leave the controller guessing as to why and how he might be able to help you. If you say "unable" followed by the reason you're unable, they can immediately come up with a plan that works for both of you. :yes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If you simply say "unable" you leave the controller guessing as to why and how he might be able to help you. If you say "unable" followed by the reason you're unable, they can immediately come up with a plan that works for both of you. :yes:
Click to expand...

Succinct, accurate, practical.

In my experience, nearly all controllers will help you to the full extent of their ability, but it is incumbent upon you to tell them what you need.
 
Since you live in the Detroit area I'd recommend a tour of the Detroit TRACON. This will allow you see what your transition through the Class Bravo impacts.. ie the traffic flow in and out of DTW. What makes some transitions through Bravo airspace tricky is that you will traverse many sectors airspace in a short period of time and/or distance. This equals lots of coordination for the controller trying to provide the Class Bravo clearance.
 
I like Jason's idea. You're telling them you can comply with the request, but you need to descend outside the Bravo first to make it to 4500. In that case, the guy will probably let you continue your descent through the Bravo (although I've got little experience dealing with Detroit controllers and zero of that was VFR, so they might be different than the Bravos I'm used to).

I've never used a VFR flight plan for any of this, just talked to the controllers and asked for what I wanted. The only time it hasn't worked has been on days when you just weren't going to get attention from the controllers unless you were on an instrument plan.
 
I've never had any trouble with this stuff up that way. Toledo is the quietest class Charlie I've ever seen, and I've never had any trouble up in Detroit either. I figured with the declining population and industry Detroit probably has an abundance of ATC services relative to other areas.

Even the busiest ATC centers have always worked to accede whatever requests I've made of them, and no one has ever said no to flight following. I have had cases where they never quite got back to me though...
 
steingar said:
I've never had any trouble with this stuff up that way. Toledo is the quietest class Charlie I've ever seen, and I've never had any trouble up in Detroit either. I figured with the declining population and industry Detroit probably has an abundance of ATC services relative to other areas.

Even the busiest ATC centers have always worked to accede whatever requests I've made of them, and no one has ever said no to flight following. I have had cases where they never quite got back to me though...
Click to expand...

Youngstown is similar -- nearly breathless to help.
 
Yah, I just assume the FAA hasn't adjusted the personnel since the decline in operations. I imagine they will eventually.
 
Much more often than not, a request to descend prior to Class B entry is to follow an established ATC standard procedure rather than to avoid cumulo-aluminum. And when that's the case ATC rarely has a problem with an alternative that makes it easier on the pilot. And if conflicting traffic is really the reason ATC can issue a vector instead of a steep descent. Some controllers seem to understand that anything over 1000 FPM in a descent can be problematic in an unpressurized airplane and that 500 FPM is greatly preferred by pilots and their passengers, but some seem to expect a jet like descent.
 
Last edited:
gismo said:
Some controllers seem to understand that anything over 1000 FPM in a descent can be problematic in an unpressurized airplane and that 500 FPM is greatly preferred by pilots and their passengers, but some seem to expect a jet like descent.
Click to expand...

That's for sure. I once got told in the Aztec to maintain 1500 fpm or greater descent. I complied with it since such descent rates don't bother me or my passenger (no dogs that time), but I should've said "Unable" just because it was a stupid request.
 
If I chop the power, put in flaps, and put it in a serious slip the Freebird will come down like a rock. Doesn't mean I like to do it if I needn't.
 
steingar said:
If I chop the power, put in flaps, and put it in a serious slip the Freebird will come down like a rock. Doesn't mean I like to do it if I needn't.
Click to expand...

dmccormack said:
Stall it and keep a wing from dropping with rudder if you really wanna sink!

:D
Click to expand...

gprellwitz said:
Nah, just put it into an intentional spin. It is certified, right?:nono:
Click to expand...

How does all of that help with this?

azure said:
But I paid for that quick descent -- my ears took over an hour to clear once I'd landed and even this morning it feels as if my right ear isn't quite clear, it's popping and my voice sounds a bit muffled in that ear as if there was water in it (no noticeable hearing loss though). Yep, I'll see an ENT if it doesn't clear in a couple of days. I carry an oxymetazoline nasal spray for emergencies but wasn't expecting this and didn't have it handy --- was probably too late by then anyway.
Click to expand...

BTW - Is your ear any better now?
 
Hey,

AuntPeggy thanks for asking! Actually it's getting better very slo-o-o-owly. I did see my ENT today and he said there is some fluid behind the drum, also evidence of negative pressure, so even though I've been yawning like crazy and had a lot of popping, my middle ear is still not all the way back down to sea level yet. So I've grounded myself AT LEAST until this resolves completely, which could take a week or more. Beyond that I think I need lessons in how to clear my ears, or maybe some tests to figure out why it's so hard for me now when it never used to be. Of course, flying with a recent cold made it much worse. Never again.

Yes to what everyone has said above! Obviously I can't really expect ATC to read my mind or to know what an acceptable descent rate is for me. Doh! Of course I should have said that I could only descend at 500 fpm, and ask to enter the Bravo in the descent. It was totally my fault for trying to comply with an instruction that I really knew was beyond my ability, just to keep the controller happy. That's a problem I've always had, trying to please other people and sometimes hurting myself in the process. It's not that I'm radio shy, though sometimes I'm not quite sure of the correct way to phrase a request and just stumble through. Actually I'm not afraid of ATC at all, except for some reason when making requests to transition a Class B. And that even though I've never been turned down by Detroit and once was even cleared through without asking on first contact.

I'd like to tour the Detroit TRACON some day just to have a better understanding of what the approach controllers have to deal with. But I hope I didn't give the impression that I resent this controller for asking for the quick descent. It's not that I don't realise that they are juggling lots of traffic and somehow feel entitled to get first class service through their airspace, actually quite the opposite. I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how positive my experiences with them have been and just need to get my act together and let them know up front when I can't comply when an instruction. In this case, it would have been a lot better if the controller had cancelled my clearance at 5 miles out -- rather than me knocking myself out trying to comply and hurting my ears in the process. And in this case, that wouldn't have happened anyway, I would have gotten the slower descent. Live and learn.
 
Liz, that "avatar" of yours looks like N--6ES C172 from 76G.
 
azure said:
Actually it's getting better very slo-o-o-owly. I did see my ENT today and he said there is some fluid behind the drum, also evidence of negative pressure, so even though I've been yawning like crazy and had a lot of popping, my middle ear is still not all the way back down to sea level yet. So I've grounded myself AT LEAST until this resolves completely, which could take a week or more. Beyond that I think I need lessons in how to clear my ears...
Click to expand...

Two words: Valsalva maneuver. :)

I have the same problem. It came to a head a few years ago when I had the sensation of a bug fluttering its wings in my ear canal. No, it wasn't really a bug, but that was the sensation. Turned out to be fluid in the middle ear.

I have a couple friends who are physician assistants and they said they often see Eustachian tube dysfunction (yep, ETD) in pilots. This is where the tube (usually one, but sometimes both) is blocked while descending and doesn't clear normally. This allows fluid build up in the middle ear which leads to discomfort or, sometimes, infection.

Like you, it didn't used to happen, then it did start happening. Frustrating.

Antihistamines help clear the fluid if/when it builds up. Meanwhile, I learned how to do the Valsalva maneuver and do it about every 1000 feet or so during descents. I can usually feel the air moving up the Eustachian tube (in my case, the right ear). It takes a bit of practice to get it right, but I haven't had a case of fluid build up in years.
 
Thanks John. Yes, I have a diver friend who has promised to teach me how to clear my ears by pinching my nose and blowing. I've tried it before without much success, but I may not be doing it correctly. I'm always afraid of hurting my eardrums with it. The only thing that's ever worked for me is yawning. I yawn when I start descending and then keep doing it every half minute or so. Usually it works just fine... usually. Last year flying with a friend to 3W2 the same thing happened, though it cleared after a few hours. There have been other times when it hasn't worked for me, but that's usually been at lower altitudes. But it is a mite hit-and-miss.

I read recently that the reason it's important to clear early and often during a descent is because it's anatomically easier to open the Eustachian tube with positive or neutral pressure. Once the pressure gradient goes negative (middle ear pressure less than ambient), it becomes more difficult to clear the ears and the higher the pressure difference, the harder it is. If that's true (not sure where I read it now), then the worst place to do a quick descent is at the beginning, starting from cruising altitude. It seems like my whole scenario was a "perfect storm" -- flying just getting over a cold, a quick descent from cruise, not even for that long but enough to build up a good strong negative pressure differential, then no chance for relief all the way down.

So yep, the Valsalva. I've got to master it and I will. :yes:
 
Ya, I was going to suggest trying Scuba Diving...you'll get it. :) A pool is a good place to test this as well, since every foot or so of depth in water (because of the density) is like a descent of 1000 feet in air. Same principles apply, though. Many people I have helped get into Scuba have had problems equalizing; they always get it with practice. You will too, I'm sure. Good luck.
 
The only controllers who I have ever encountered that were not really nice were the ones at Kissimmee, Florida. Just tell them what works for you and they can often work with you.
Of course, I may be biased!;)
 
azure said:
Thanks John. Yes, I have a diver friend who has promised to teach me how to clear my ears by pinching my nose and blowing. I've tried it before without much success, but I may not be doing it correctly. I'm always afraid of hurting my eardrums with it. The only thing that's ever worked for me is yawning. I yawn when I start descending and then keep doing it every half minute or so. Usually it works just fine... usually. Last year flying with a friend to 3W2 the same thing happened, though it cleared after a few hours. There have been other times when it hasn't worked for me, but that's usually been at lower altitudes. But it is a mite hit-and-miss.

I read recently that the reason it's important to clear early and often during a descent is because it's anatomically easier to open the Eustachian tube with positive or neutral pressure. Once the pressure gradient goes negative (middle ear pressure less than ambient), it becomes more difficult to clear the ears and the higher the pressure difference, the harder it is. If that's true (not sure where I read it now), then the worst place to do a quick descent is at the beginning, starting from cruising altitude. It seems like my whole scenario was a "perfect storm" -- flying just getting over a cold, a quick descent from cruise, not even for that long but enough to build up a good strong negative pressure differential, then no chance for relief all the way down.

So yep, the Valsalva. I've got to master it and I will. :yes:
Click to expand...

Be sure to practice this technique gently, and not just when you feel you need relief. The best way is to just exhale slowly and gently, thinking volume rather than pressure. When flying, especially in cigar tubes (hardly ever go above 5000 MSL on my own), I often just "clear" every few minutes during descents, whether I feel I need it or not. Much less of an event that way. If you wait to do the Lasalve thing until you can feel pressure, it will feel like you're hurting yourself.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top