Need to Replace Transponder: What to do??

J

JoseCuervo

En-Route
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
2,868
Display Name
Display name:
JoseCuervo
My current transponder (old Cessna 300 series) is causing problems. Had a blown fuse inside it once, got it fixed, now is not reporting altitude.

What is the best option, considering that 2020 will be here soon with the ADS-B mandate. I have been told the GARMIN GTX 327 DIGITAL TRANSPONDER is the way to go.

Any other suggestions?

(I have a 430 for the main Com/GPS).

Anybody have leads on a used transponder that would be a good solution?
 
If the 430 is was you might want the garmin 330 es ,will give you adsb out.
 
Trig has a 1090ES model (TT22 I think) that is about $2400, less than the Garmin.
 
Get a cheap Mode C transponder, you're going to need it after 2020 anyway. Worry about the ADSB later.
 
You need a Mode S 1090ES transponder to meet the ADS-B mandate in 2020. You will also need a certified GPS/WAAS along with the ADS-B module itself..
 
Not only that, but you need to continue the maintenance of both transponders. This really sucks.
 
The one thing mentioned that will not work by itself is the Garmin GTX327, which has no Mode S capability and no available upgrade to Mode S, no less 1090ES. So, if someone is suggesting a 327 as your 2020 ADS-B solution, you need to find someone else to provide advice.
 
GDL 88 and the GTX327 xponder will fix you right up for about $10K after the shop time

I'm guesstimating big time here ...
 
I've got a Bendix/King KT-76A I pulled during my recent panel upgrade. Works fine, if you want it, shoot me a PM.
 
txflyer said:
GDL 88 and the GTX327 xponder will fix you right up
Click to expand...

Yes, as long as you stay below 18,000', a GDL 88 plus any Mode C transponder is a solution, and a used 327 is a mode C transponder that would serve this purpose just fine. It's what I'd do right now, if my transponder were broken. The 330ES (extended squitter) is a different solution, for those who need to fly above 18,000'
 
frfly172 said:
If the 430 is was you might want the garmin 330 es ,will give you adsb out.
Click to expand...

The 430 is not currently Was, but, I am assuming that it will get updated at some point in the next few years (during the winter when the plane and I are not as busy.

In your opinion, should I upgrade the 430 sooner or later?
 
steingar said:
Get a cheap Mode C transponder, you're going to need it after 2020 anyway. Worry about the ADSB later.
Click to expand...


What model of "cheap Mode C transponder" do you suggest?

Or, are you suggesting a "disposable" solution to get me to Dec 31, 2019?
 
You do understand that upgrading that 430 at this point is going to be a substantial chunk of change. Just Garmin's part of the upgrade is going to push $3400 plus shipping and that doesn't count either the labor or the fact you're probably going to need a new antenna and cable. By the way, if your 430 isn't in perfect condition Garmin will add an additional GOUGE of one "flat rate repair" to the mix as well.

Note that Garmin isn't particularly speedy on this no matter how much you cry about being AOG.

Further, for a legal installation, if your unit isn't close enough to the six pack, there may be an additional annunciation requirement.
 
Ron Levy said:
The one thing mentioned that will not work by itself is the Garmin GTX327, which has no Mode S capability and no available upgrade to Mode S, no less 1090ES. So, if someone is suggesting a 327 as your 2020 ADS-B solution, you need to find someone else to provide advice.
Click to expand...

Is there a 327ES??? I may have misheard?

I am thinking the solution was:
430 upgrade to Was,
+ Some other interface box
+ Garmin 327 Transponder (maybe a 330????)
_________________________________
= Whole lot less money in my checkbook
 
txflyer said:
GDL 88 and the GTX327 xponder will fix you right up for about $10K after the shop time

I'm guesstimating big time here ...
Click to expand...


That sounds kind of like what I was remembering as the path forward.

But that sounds in contradiction to Ron's reply, immediately above.


This "free advice" sure is confusing.... :dunno:
 
NoHeat said:
Yes, as long as you stay below 18,000', a GDL 88 plus any Mode C transponder is a solution, and a used 327 is a mode C transponder that would serve this purpose just fine. It's what I'd do right now, if my transponder were broken. The 330ES (extended squitter) is a different solution, for those who need to fly above 18,000'
Click to expand...


This plane will NEVER get above 18,000......

Doubtful above 12,500....

Prefer about 500 AGL when possible
 
JoseCuervo said:
The 430 is not currently Was, but, I am assuming that it will get updated at some point in the next few years (during the winter when the plane and I are not as busy.

In your opinion, should I upgrade the 430 sooner or later?
Click to expand...

Trade in the 430 and get a 650. No matter what, it's gonna hurt. I was just quoted for a 650 and GDL 88 fully installed and all paperwork done at $21k.

For the GDL alone installed, your looking $5k ish as well for a non-WAAS model, so add on the WAAS option of your choosing and go from there.

And consider this, you might also have to install a new encoder, if it's not compatible.

Easiest way out of this mess for you is an ADsB box of your choosing with a WAAS receiver and a new mode C transponder.
 
Last edited:
flyingron said:
You do understand that upgrading that 430 at this point is going to be a substantial chunk of change. Just Garmin's part of the upgrade is going to push $3400 plus shipping and that doesn't count either the labor or the fact you're probably going to need a new antenna and cable. By the way, if your 430 isn't in perfect condition Garmin will add an additional GOUGE of one "flat rate repair" to the mix as well.

Note that Garmin isn't particularly speedy on this no matter how much you cry about being AOG.

Further, for a legal installation, if your unit isn't close enough to the six pack, there may be an additional annunciation requirement.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I think the number was gonna be close to $4k to upgrade the Garmin. I can't think of a practical reason to need it upgraded, other than compliance to 2020 mandate. It seems to work just fine for all I need to do.

What alternative do I have?
 
Ron's reply is correct, but meaningful mainly if you intend to fly over 18,000 or to another country that requires ES, as those are the situations that will require ES (extended squatter).

If you intend to fly below 18,000 in the Us, and in countries that do not require ADS-B out, then you have another choice: UAT. This might be cheaper, because you can use a combination of two things: a Mode C transponder (and a 327 will meet that need, even a used one) plus a GDL88. The latter provides the ADS B out using UAT instead of ES.

It is correct that a 327 by itself will not provide ADS B out; that is why you would supplement it with the GDL 88. The latter can be mounted behind the panel.

The Mode C transponder (for example the 327) will transmit on mode C, which is required, and the GDL 88 will listen to the Mode C and your GPS to figure out what it should transmit on the ADS B out.

I hope I got that right; the Garmin website is not helpful, because it just tries to sell you a 327ES.
 
Unit74 said:
Trade in the 430 and get a 650. No matter what, it's gonna hurt. I was just quoted for a 650 and GDL 88 fully installed and all paperwork done at $21k.

For the GDL alone installed, your looking $5k ish as well for a non-WAAS model, so add on the WAAS option of your choosing and go from there.

And consider this, you might also have to install a new encoder, if it's not compatible.

Easiest way out of this mess for you is an ADsB box of your choosing with a WAAS receiver and a new mode C transponder.
Click to expand...


Is there a compelling reason to do this in 2014 as opposed to 2019? (or 2021?)
 
NoHeat said:
Ron's reply is correct, but meaningful mainly if you intend to fly over 18,000 or to another country that requires ES, as those are the situations that will require ES (extended squatter).

If you intend to fly below 18,000 in the Us, and in countries that do not require ADS-B out, then you have another choice: UAT. This might be cheaper, because you can use a combination of two things: a Mode C transponder (and a 327 will meet that need, even a used one) plus a GDL88. The latter provides the ADS B out using UAT instead of ES.

It is correct that a 327 by itself will not provide ADS B out; that is why you would supplement it with the GDL 88. The latter can be mounted behind the panel.

The Mode C transponder (for example the 327) will transmit on mode C, which is required, and the GDL 88 will listen to the Mode C and your GPS to figure out what it should transmit on the ADS B out.

I hope I got that right; the Garmin website is not helpful, because it just tries to sell you a 327ES.
Click to expand...


So there is a 327ES?

And, yes, this plane will NEVER leave the US while I own it, and as soon as I make that statement, I will decide I want to fly to Alaska, crossing Canadian airspace.....
 
JoseCuervo said:
Is there a compelling reason to do this in 2014 as opposed to 2019? (or 2021?)
Click to expand...

Probably because your not going to be able to get an appt in a shop. Although many folks say wait, that's poor advise in my opinion. FAA has spent way too much money and they have already come out and said there will not be any deferments.

Bottom line is you need an ADBS out transmitter, a compatible transponder and encoder. How you get there depends on how deep your pockets are.

If you sit tight, there will be a financing option available soon. It's supposed to go live later this year.
 
JoseCuervo said:
So there is a 327ES?

And, yes, this plane will NEVER leave the US while I own it, and as soon as I make that statement, I will decide I want to fly to Alaska, crossing Canadian airspace.....
Click to expand...

No, there is not a 327 ES. There is a 330 ES.

Adding a GDL88 to a 327 does not change the 327 into anything else.

There are two kinds of ADS-B out, ES (extended squitter) and UAT. Instead of ES, the GDL88 uses UAT. So if you have a 327 and add a GDL88, you will still squawk Mode C through the 327 and you will transmit ADS-B out using the GDL88.

UAT is useful only below 18000 feet and in the US.

So to recap, two possible solutions: throw out your old transponder and replace with a 330ES, or use the old Mode C transponder and add a GDL88. The 330ES will work anywhere, whereas the other solution is a bit more limited but will probably meet the needs of almost all normally aspirated single-engine planes in the US.

Canada has no requirement planned for ADS-B Out, so it doesn't matter much whether you choose ES, UAT, or nothing at all when you overfly Canada.
 
Unit74 said:
Bottom line is you need an ADBS out transmitter.
Click to expand...

A lot of pilots can still just use a Mode C transponder after 2020 and not bother with ADS-B Out. They just have to stay out of Class A, Class B and its 30-mile veil, and Class C. And they have to stay below 10,000 MSL in Class E.

A lot of pilots just like to do some relaxing low-altitude flying away from big cities. Such pilots can take it easy, and ignore the ADS-B requirement. They might forego some safety benefits like flight following, but they'll be legal.
 
Last edited:
I visited the L3 booth at Oshkosh and they're supposed to be coming out with a self-contained UAT box to compete heads up with the Garmin GDL88 and start in the $2K price range, and the L3 box will have built-in Bluetooth data for iPads and Android tablets. It will auto sync the UAT's squawk code with your existing mode C transponder. They're calling this new box the "Lynx". Something like this would be an ideal ADSB in+out solution for those of us who will never see 18000' and wish to view the traffic and weather data on a tablet.
 
Neal Howard said:
I visited the L3 booth at Oshkosh and they're supposed to be coming out with a self-contained UAT box to compete heads up with the Garmin GDL88 and start in the $2K price range, and the L3 box will have built-in Bluetooth data for iPads and Android tablets. It will auto sync the UAT's squawk code with your existing mode C transponder. They're calling this new box the "Lynx". Something like this would be an ideal ADSB in+out solution for those of us who will never see 18000' and wish to view the traffic and weather data on a tablet.
Click to expand...


Sounds perfect for me.

I'm tired of being locked into Garmin's suite and how they kill you with every little single item like they do at a fancy hotel.

You wanna update your terrain and obstacle card that looks exactly like the navdata card you just paid us $125 for it's card reader? You can't use the one you just bought from us stupid! You have to buy our other exact same looking card reader for $200 if you want terrain and obstacles sucker! :mad2:
 
JoseCuervo said:
The 430 is not currently Was, but, I am assuming that it will get updated at some point in the next few years (during the winter when the plane and I are not as busy.

In your opinion, should I upgrade the 430 sooner or later?
Click to expand...

The 330 es is not a cheap solution,it runs about 6k installed. You are going to need a WAS box,I would update the 430 when I did the new transponder.
 
CTLSi said:
You need a Mode S 1090ES transponder to meet the ADS-B mandate in 2020. You will also need a certified GPS/WAAS along with the ADS-B module itself..
Click to expand...

This is news to me. A mode S transponder is not the best way to go for most GA aircraft to satisfy the ADS-B mandate.
 
Ron Levy said:
The one thing mentioned that will not work by itself is the Garmin GTX327, which has no Mode S capability and no available upgrade to Mode S, no less 1090ES. So, if someone is suggesting a 327 as your 2020 ADS-B solution, you need to find someone else to provide advice.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be advising to use a mode S transponder in the first instance as the means of complying with the 2020 mandate.
 
flyingron said:
You do understand that upgrading that 430 at this point is going to be a substantial chunk of change. Just Garmin's part of the upgrade is going to push $3400 plus shipping and that doesn't count either the labor or the fact you're probably going to need a new antenna and cable. By the way, if your 430 isn't in perfect condition Garmin will add an additional GOUGE of one "flat rate repair" to the mix as well.

Note that Garmin isn't particularly speedy on this no matter how much you cry about being AOG.

Further, for a legal installation, if your unit isn't close enough to the six pack, there may be an additional annunciation requirement.
Click to expand...

Ron, the antenna comes with the upgrade and is not an additional expense, but mounting it and sometimes replacing the cable can add up to 4 hours of labor.
 
Neal Howard said:
I visited the L3 booth at Oshkosh and they're supposed to be coming out with a self-contained UAT box to compete heads up with the Garmin GDL88 and start in the $2K price range, and the L3 box will have built-in Bluetooth data for iPads and Android tablets. It will auto sync the UAT's squawk code with your existing mode C transponder. They're calling this new box the "Lynx". Something like this would be an ideal ADSB in+out solution for those of us who will never see 18000' and wish to view the traffic and weather data on a tablet.
Click to expand...

Vaporware always competes well with real products. I write about these topics and refuse to consider the product until you can buy it and install it and it will work with your current equipment.
 
NoHeat said:
A lot of pilots can still just use a Mode C transponder after 2020 and not bother with ADS-B Out. They just have to stay out of Class A, Class B and its 30-mile veil, and Class C. And they have to stay below 10,000 MSL in Class E.

A lot of pilots just like to do some relaxing low-altitude flying away from big cities. Such pilots can take it easy, and ignore the ADS-B requirement. They might forego some safety benefits like flight following, but they'll be legal.
Click to expand...

I agree with your first statement, but obtaining ATC services such as flight following or IFR flight are still available all the time when you are outside of the airspace that mandates ADS-B. Even the occasional trip into a Class B airport is provided for in the regulations by obtaining prior ATC permission.
 
Not mentioned so far is that the GDL-88 has a version that has a WASS GPS built in and it adds 1020.00 to the base price of 3495.00 It's cheaper then upgrading your 430 but the down side is that you cannot get the WASS GPS data from the GDL-88 into your 430 so you won't be able to take advantage of the better signal on the 430. I have a 530W and will be strongly considering the GDL-88 solution in part to keep a complete garmin stack. They charge more but there is something to be said for one vendor approach to reduce the finger pointing.
 
John Collins said:
Vaporware always competes well with real products. I write about these topics and refuse to consider the product until you can buy it and install it and it will work with your current equipment.
Click to expand...

NavWorx also has self-contained UAT system, which you can buy right now today at $3300 for the TSO'ed version, and includes an internal WAAS GPS receiver and a mechanism to auto-sync the UAT squawk code with your existing mode-C transponder. Of course you'll still need about $400 worth of antennas for certified aircraft, about $100 less for antennas for experimental aircraft, and the WiFi interface add-on option to send the traffic and weather data wirelessly to your tablet is another $90, so you're still looking at near 4 AMUs for the package.

I wouldn't be too hasty to call L-3's Lynx "vaporware" just yet. If they miss their announced Q4 2014 release date by too far, then that may give more weight to such a claim, but they sure have expended a lot of money and effort into promotion for it so far to not be serious about it. If they can manage to put together and pull off a package deal that will get the average spamcan fully ADSB-compliant and get that package to market for the $2-3K price range first before another vendor, they could end up cornering that portion of the general aviation market.


ETA: The NavWorx system requires the altitude encoder data to be provided via an RS-232 serial data line, not gray code, so for the average spamcan that'll mean spending at least another $300 on a new blind encoder that has outputs in both serial for the UAT and gray code for your existing legacy transponder. Nobody makes an inexpensive graycode-to-serial converter box that I'm aware of, they are available that do the conversion the other way around for about $80. Chances are that other all-in-one UAT solutions will likely also the altitude encoder data provided via a serial data line too.
 
Last edited:
CTLSi said:
You need a Mode S 1090ES transponder to meet the ADS-B mandate in 2020. You will also need a certified GPS/WAAS along with the ADS-B module itself..
Click to expand...

I don't think that Mode S is required in 2002 unless you want to fly in Class A.

A worn out mode a/c transponder can be replaced with a new mode a/c transponder, and the ads-b out requirement met with a UAT box like the Garmin GDL-88 connected to a WAAS GPS.
 
John Collins said:
I agree with your first statement, but obtaining ATC services such as flight following or IFR flight are still available all the time when you are outside of the airspace that mandates ADS-B. Even the occasional trip into a Class B airport is provided for in the regulations by obtaining prior ATC permission.
Click to expand...


At this point, I will always be VFR, perhaps marginal VFR, or even "VFR not recommended", but no plans to be IFR.

I have a Class C about 30 miles away, sometimes need to cut thru it, sometimes will likely need to go there for service or pick up somebody at the bigger airport.

I have been flying into SF Bay area airports, avoiding the Class B, but definitely crossing thru other airspaces.

What do you suggest my 2014-2019 solution?

and a 2020 solution?
 
I'm just going to part my plane out when the mandate comes. It's going to demolish the value if I don't upgrade to ADS-B, yet at the same time I am not dumping more than what the plane is currently worth into it to keep it IFR legal.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top