Need to "elongate" my next 2 solo X/C's

PBristolJr

PBristolJr

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PBristolJr
Today I did my first Solo X/C, it was also my long X/C but I finished it with 2.0 on the hobbs meter. I need to have 3 more hours of X/C flying, obviously I'll fly slower on these two separate flights (50-55nm out & back) but if I'm early would it be wise to do some pattern work to add a few tenths? I asked about going to the practice area to burn some time & practice my maneuvers, however my CFI said solo X/C endorsements are only good to a particular airport and back.

Thanks!
 
instead of flying slower or wasting time why don't you just go somewhere further away?
 
PBristolJr said:
Today I did my first Solo X/C, it was also my long X/C but I finished it with 2.0 on the hobbs meter. I need to have 3 more hours of X/C flying, obviously I'll fly slower on these two separate flights (50-55nm out & back) but if I'm early would it be wise to do some pattern work to add a few tenths? I asked about going to the practice area to burn some time & practice my maneuvers, however my CFI said solo X/C endorsements are only good to a particular airport and back.

Thanks!
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Yes - definately don't end up .1 short on your XC time. I think your idea of practicing pattern work is probably a better use of time than taxiing.

If you are being charged on hobbs and not tach, then will probably be the best return on your investment to go full speed and practice patterns on both sides to get your time in.

Or do what Tony said and go further.
 
The endorsement doesn't have to be to only one airport, you could do a big polyhedron with some number of specific stops.
 
Your CFI is wrong. I flew all over the southeast with a general "approved for xc" endorsement before I took my ppl checkride. Neither my examiner nor anyone else cared a bit, other than him thinking it was cool all the places I had gone.

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Why not make them an exercise in precision flying? Set the time to land at that you need and adjust your speed along the way by timing between mapped fixes, measuring it and finding you GS then correcting your speed. See how close to exact you can get the wheels to squeak to the clock.
 
I definetly recommend trying a route that you'd possibly do once you're licensed if that's feasible. My long XC (with two stops was KTDZ - KRID - I12 - KTDZ) 3.2 on the hobbs meter. I feel alot more confident that after I get my license that a trip KTDZ - KAGC will be a breeze (with only 1.9 on the meter the last time I went with my CFI)
 
cheap weenie said:
Your CFI is wrong. I flew all over the southeast with a general "approved for xc" endorsement before I took my ppl checkride. Neither my examiner nor anyone else cared a bit, other than him thinking it was cool all the places I had gone.

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An endorsement allowing that is somewhat more complicated than the above post makes it seem.

That said, there's nothing wrong with stopping in the practice area on the way back if it's on your planned course, and definitely nothing wrong with doing some pattern work at the home airport, and under the rules, it's all XC time.
 
I think CFI is correct. XC endorsement is just that. Saying you can go from Point A to Point B and back. When CFI signs off on your flight planning, he signs off on fuel, weight and balance, time enroute, etc. And if you take a "scenic route" through practice area, that plan may not be valid anymore.

I would suggest going to practice area after you reached your home airport, but not landed yet, provided you have enough fuel. But don't overdo it. If your XC is 70nm, you can't just come back and put 2 hours of flight time in the book for that distance one way.

<-- NOT A CFI. Not even a PPL. Post above is just my educated and logical guess. Your CFI's opinion (obviously) overrides anything you read in my post.
 
PBristolJr said:
Today I did my first Solo X/C, it was also my long X/C but I finished it with 2.0 on the hobbs meter. I need to have 3 more hours of X/C flying, obviously I'll fly slower on these two separate flights (50-55nm out & back) but if I'm early would it be wise to do some pattern work to add a few tenths? I asked about going to the practice area to burn some time & practice my maneuvers, however my CFI said solo X/C endorsements are only good to a particular airport and back.

Thanks!
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Never heard of an endorsement that requires a specific course, with no detours... weird. But I think I see the logic: the solo XC is supposed to be about navigation, not maneuvers.

I didn't have an "open" Xc endorsement, either... but my solo XCs were approved pending review of my flight plan. Never had one rejected, even if it was not strictly straight lines between airports.

So why not fly a triangle? One of the course-change points could just be a waypoint, with no landing, if you want. If your CFI is not OK with that, you may want to ask him where it says in the regs that you can't do it.
 
My CFI and I sat down and ran the numbers before I left. I remember being told, "Part of your job is not to land until you have turned over x.x hours on the Hobbs. Do slow flight, go to the practice area, or whatever, but don't land short of x.x!"

I do remember a student that came in 0.1hr shy. He had to do another >50nm flight to get that last 6 minutes.
 
Ron Levy said:
An endorsement allowing that is somewhat more complicated than the above post makes it seem.

That said, there's nothing wrong with stopping in the practice area on the way back if it's on your planned course, and definitely nothing wrong with doing some pattern work at the home airport, and under the rules, it's all XC time.
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It's still just a logbook endorsement. It's not rocket surgery, just requires some ink. Maybe supply the instructor with a free Bic to compensate for the arduous effort.

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cheap weenie said:
It's still just a logbook endorsement. It's not rocket surgery, just requires some ink. Maybe supply the instructor with a free Bic to compensate for the arduous effort.

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Actually, after further consideration, unless you're talking about repeated flights between two specified airports within 50nm of each other, and that does not count as XC time for these purposes, the FAA does not permit what I think you suggested (Student Pilot XC's without instructor review for each flight). I think there was a provision for that several decades ago, but not for a very long time.
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, after further consideration, unless you're talking about repeated flights between two specified airports within 50nm of each other, and that does not count as XC time for these purposes, the FAA does not permit what I think you suggested (Student Pilot XC's without instructor review for each flight). I think there was a provision for that several decades ago, but not for a very long time.
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I had one of those to an airport about 35nm away from home base.

I used flights there to practice XC procedures and nav without needing a specific signoff for each one...came in handy in that when the DPE told me my XC to plan for the checkride, it went right over top of that airport...so afternoon before, I hop in the plane and verify all my checkpoints up to that point!
 
Matthew said:
My CFI and I sat down and ran the numbers before I left. I remember being told, "Part of your job is not to land until you have turned over x.x hours on the Hobbs. Do slow flight, go to the practice area, or whatever, but don't land short of x.x!"

I do remember a student that came in 0.1hr shy. He had to do another >50nm flight to get that last 6 minutes.
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Me, too. And it was both an annoyance and a joy to repeat that cross-country flight on the day before the checkride just to get the numbers where they ought to be. Actually, got me a little pat on the back for having more than the minimum requirement. I was not going to say why to the DE.
 
PBristolJr said:
Today I did my first Solo X/C, it was also my long X/C but I finished it with 2.0 on the hobbs meter. I need to have 3 more hours of X/C flying, obviously I'll fly slower on these two separate flights (50-55nm out & back) but if I'm early would it be wise to do some pattern work to add a few tenths? I asked about going to the practice area to burn some time & practice my maneuvers, however my CFI said solo X/C endorsements are only good to a particular airport and back.

Thanks!
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Do it twice, once in each direction. (Unless you are only going to one airport, in which case my suggestion is silly.)
 
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AuntPeggy said:
Me, too. And it was both an annoyance and a joy to repeat that cross-country flight on the day before the checkride just to get the numbers where they ought to be. Actually, got me a little pat on the back for having more than the minimum requirement. I was not going to say why to the DE.
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I was endorsed for repeated solo to Catalina.
 
Henning said:
Long Beach
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That's 28nm -- can do with the right endorsement (61.93(b)(2) under the current rules). But it would take a lot of convincing for me to sign such an endorsement, and the restrictions on it would be very tight.
 
The whole point of long XC is to get you outside the local area and probably into a different weather system. Then you have to look at that weather change over that larger space and "expand your horizons".

Slowing down and staying close means virtually no change in the weather. I agree with Tony. Go somewhere further away.

You need to see different weather inside the same longish flight while you can still easily ask your instructor for thoughts on the bigger weather picture, etc.
 
My endorsements were specific. Approved for flight on this date from point a to point b and back to point a. No deviation unless an emergency. Maybe this has changed, in not sure. I think it is all in how the endorsement is written in your logbook.

The training area endorsement was fairly open ended with no date restrictions.
 
Matthew said:
My CFI and I sat down and ran the numbers before I left. I remember being told, "Part of your job is not to land until you have turned over x.x hours on the Hobbs. Do slow flight, go to the practice area, or whatever, but don't land short of x.x!"

I do remember a student that came in 0.1hr shy. He had to do another >50nm flight to get that last 6 minutes.
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I was a little more than 0.1 hr shy "back in the day", so I got signed off for another XC, grabbed the trusty 150 (for the last time) and went flogging off to KLS from OLM (51 nm apart). Darned cars on I-5 were passing me southbound. :D OK, so I needed another flight. Any excuse to fly works for me. :D :D
 
cheap weenie said:
Your CFI is wrong. I flew all over the southeast with a general "approved for xc" endorsement before I took my ppl checkride. Neither my examiner nor anyone else cared a bit, other than him thinking it was cool all the places I had gone.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk
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The XC endorsement is what your CFI says it is. If he/she writes it as approved XC to XYZ and return, then that is what you can do. If they write a general statement with no limitations, go where you want. It's the CFI that is taking the risk.
 
The CFI can write the endorsement pretty much as s/he pleases. My wife literally covered the state of Illinois on her only cross country. Chicago to Carbondale to St. Louis back to Chicago! Get far from home. It's one reason you're getting a pilot certificate, anyway!
 
CMTowner said:
My endorsements were specific. Approved for flight on this date from point a to point b and back to point a. No deviation unless an emergency. Maybe this has changed, in not sure. I think it is all in how the endorsement is written in your logbook.
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It has not changed. See 61.93 for details.
 
BillTIZ said:
The XC endorsement is what your CFI says it is. If he/she writes it as approved XC to XYZ and return, then that is what you can do. If they write a general statement with no limitations, go where you want. It's the CFI that is taking the risk.
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If it is a general statement with no limitations, it is not a legal endorsement, and that means the CFI is taking a huge risk. How that plays out for the Student Pilot involved is not clear, but it's likely the FAA will be asking the Student Pilot to find out if s/he also knew it wasn't legal.
 
gprellwitz said:
The CFI can write the endorsement pretty much as s/he pleases.
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That is not entirely true. The instructor must stay within the bounds of 61.87, 61.89, and 61.93 in that endorsement, i.e., the instructor cannot legally endorse the Student Pilot to do things which those regulations do not authorize. For example, an endorsement authorizing a Student Pilot to make repeated solo XC's on future dates between airports more than 50nm apart without further instructor review and endorsement would not be legal.
 
Ron Levy said:
That is not entirely true. The instructor must stay within the bounds of 61.87, 61.89, and 61.93 in that endorsement, i.e., the instructor cannot legally endorse the Student Pilot to do things which those regulations do not authorize. For example, an endorsement authorizing a Student Pilot to make repeated solo XC's on future dates between airports more than 50nm apart without further instructor review and endorsement would not be legal.
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Yeah, if you want entirely true, read the FARs, and the FAA's interpretations thereof, and ... :D
 
Ron Levy said:
That said, there's nothing wrong with stopping in the practice area on the way back if it's on your planned course, and definitely nothing wrong with doing some pattern work at the home airport, and under the rules, it's all XC time.
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Not according to m my CFI (who I have come to realize is not always right). I left my start point (KNIP) just prior to a NOTAM'd airfield closure (2 hours in length). Upon my return (from KXFL) I realized that my planned arrival time was too early, and that the airfield was still closed, so I detoured via KVQQ and KHEG for a couple of touch-and-go's before returning to KNIP to land after the airfield re-opened.

Total Hobbs: 2.1
XC time: 1.3

Note: CFI was filling out my logbook entries up until that point.

When asked about the 1.3, she told me that any XC time ends the moment I deviate from my planned course and start doing something else, and 1.3 was the moment I deviated from my course to the west to head towards KVQQ.

I now think (know?) she is wrong, but my next (long) solo XC will cover my XC time requirements, so it all works out in the end.
 
Henning said:
Why not make them an exercise in precision flying? Set the time to land at that you need and adjust your speed along the way by timing between mapped fixes, measuring it and finding you GS then correcting your speed. See how close to exact you can get the wheels to squeak to the clock.
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While I was working on my private I would have gaffawed at Hennings suggestion. Now that I have a little bit of XC time, much of it on missions to my Mom's hometown due to her health challenges, I see the value of such training and I think it's a great idea.

It would add an additional dimension or seriousness to your flight planning AND your flight precision and as an important side benefit, provide more learning.

As far as pattern work to stretch the time of your cross country, that sounds a bit disingenuous to me. If I were a DPE and happened to be studying your logbook closely I would see it as stretching the rules a little bit, but that's just me.

I would suggest that you just pick another airport and add it to the trip. I made three stops away from my home airport on my long cross country and it made it more fun and better training.

All these requirements have a purpose. Requiring cross country flying in your training has a very practical purpose. The more you fly, the more different kinds of situations and weather observations you make. Every time you go up, or land at another airport, or do more precise flying, or do more precise planning, you are learning something. Don't consider it a waste of time. Consider it education.

BTW, my DPE even positively commented on my extra long cross country during the oral portion of my checkride. It never hurts for the DPE to be additionally impressed before you take to the air with him/her.

Good luck,
 
I'd say if you need to stretch time spend 1/2 hr doing MCA, that'll help your landings out a bunch as well.
 
darrell said:
Not according to m my CFI (who I have come to realize is not always right). I left my start point (KNIP) just prior to a NOTAM'd airfield closure (2 hours in length). Upon my return (from KXFL) I realized that my planned arrival time was too early, and that the airfield was still closed, so I detoured via KVQQ and KHEG for a couple of touch-and-go's before returning to KNIP to land after the airfield re-opened.

Total Hobbs: 2.1
XC time: 1.3

Note: CFI was filling out my logbook entries up until that point.

When asked about the 1.3, she told me that any XC time ends the moment I deviate from my planned course and start doing something else, and 1.3 was the moment I deviated from my course to the west to head towards KVQQ.

I now think (know?) she is wrong, but my next (long) solo XC will cover my XC time requirements, so it all works out in the end.
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You should ask your instructor to show you the regulation which supports her position. Then show her 14 CFR 61.1(b)(4)(ii) and ask why that regulation does not apply. And please share her answers with us.
 
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MBDiagMan said:
As far as pattern work to stretch the time of your cross country, that sounds a bit disingenuous to me. If I were a DPE and happened to be studying your logbook closely I would see it as stretching the rules a little bit, but that's just me.
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You would probably not be alone in that, but from a regulatory standpoint, it is legal and does count -- and any CFI should know that.
 
Great news, I completed the 2nd of three cross country flights today. Did some extra planning on speeds, altitudes, climb times, etc. early this morning and ended up ending my flight with exactly 1.5 on the clock!

My next XC is Thursday morning and I plan to do the same planning for it.
 
gprellwitz said:
Yeah, if you want entirely true, read the FARs, and the FAA's interpretations thereof, and ... :D
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All a CFI need do is stick with the endorsement language in AC 61-65 (and I believe E is the current edition) with which every CFI should be familiar. Deviate from that at your own risk because the FAA has gotten very picky about training documentation and endorsements over the last 15-20 years. For a gross example, see Administrator v. Couillard (http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/4634.pdf). Also, for an example of an overly permissive XC endorsement, see Administrator v. Blair (http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/4253.pdf).
 
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