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captvikki

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captvikki
Wow, I can't believe the last time I was on PoA was July. Anyway, I missed all the wisdom I find in this venue. I need some help on a question for a class I am taking.

Would GA be better off today if 9-11 never happened?

I am very interested in everyone's comments.

Vikki
 
Wow, I can't believe the last time I was on PoA was July. Anyway, I missed all the wisdom I find in this venue. I need some help on a question for a class I am taking.

Would GA be better off today if 9-11 never happened?

I am very interested in everyone's comments.

Vikki

Interesting question and very open ended.

I would say neglecting the economic impact of 9/11 and other factors that have turned the economy down. That regardless of 9/11 GA would be in the same shape it is now.

For aircraft under 12,500lbs 9/11 has not affected too many of our operations. Only a handful of airports and one area has been adversely affected. That would be the Washington DC area with the SFRA and the DC-3 airports. But most of the rest of the US has been mercifully left alone.

Some minor changes have occurred such as extra hoops to jump through to start training, some additional physical security issues, etc. But none that I can see that have turned away the masses from GA. Bigger aircraft have been affected but only incrementally by a little more. Again jsut a few extra securty hoops to jump through.

The only new procedure that I see that has affected people are the TFRs and even those are transitory and only limit the amount of damage to a business to a day or two. The bigger affect to GA has been the down turn in the economy. That has resulted in fewer aircraft being built, less money to pursue training and continue flying. How much of that down turn is related to 9/11, bad economic policy, or cyclical downturns is open to discussion.

While I personally think a lot of the security hoops we have to jump through do little to actually make anyone more safe I cannot honestly say that they have hurt GA.
 
Wow, I can't believe the last time I was on PoA was July. Anyway, I missed all the wisdom I find in this venue. I need some help on a question for a class I am taking.

Would GA be better off today if 9-11 never happened?

I am very interested in everyone's comments.

Vikki

Yes.

Well, GA would be better off if the over-reaction to 9-11 never happened.

GA would be better off without prohibiting people from taking pictures
of aircraft

GA would be better off without the extra time/money wasted on useless measures in the name of security (badges, background checks, 4' high
fences).

GA would be better off without the paranoia when people wander
over to airplanes just to look or just watching airplanes takeoff/land
at a small airport.

etc etc etc

Nothing post-911 has helped GA, with the possible exception of
TSA making airline travel even more unattractive.
 
GA would be better off without prohibiting people from taking pictures
of aircraft.
I have never heard this before. Who stopping whom from taking pictures of what aircraft? I take pictures all the time and have never been stopped, even when walking on a military ramp and snapping shots of military aircraft.
 
Here's how I use to do it:
I would just walk up to the runway, get in the plane and go for a 2ish hour flight just because with nothing more than a glance at the weather and a preflight. When I rented or borrowed a plane, it was the same way. No phone calls to FSS. No computers. Just get in the plane and go. At nearly every airport I would go on a walk and snoop at planes on the ramp and in open hangars. There were few if any fences and the few fences had open gates or were unlocked. Lots of airplanes were unlocked especially if they were being used at the time. Security was hi I'm ___ how are you beautiful/crappy day for flying isn't it. I never locked the plane if I were staying at an airport and sometimes even when going into town for lunch. We personally left the plane unlocked in the open hangar on the farm with the key sitting on top of the glareshield 24/7/365 and there were no locks on anything and no fences.

Many times we would get up in the morning, looked outside at the beautiful early morning weather, sometimes but not often made a quick call to FSS for a general WX breifing if we had questions, and said let's go on a trip and we were gone. I don't ever recall asking for flight restriction areas because they were clearly marked on the sectionals. I think my aunt asked them about one for the 1976 NY parade of ships but I recall sitting in the backseat looking down on the huge masted ships later that day.
Here's one super excellent trip that took all day: Get up and look outside at the good wx. Preflight planning was on the breakfast table with a butter knife for navigation and to determine fuel range. Walk up to the runway and lift off moments after sunrise with dew rolling off the wings as the plane accelerated. Our FSS equivalent briefing was nothing more than the view out the window at 3500 or 4500ft without using the radio. Weather good = keep going. The only weather reports we got was talking to other pilots or ramp rats at fuel stops. We popped off a pirep or two just for fun to FSS. The route was this: Upstate NY to the Hudson River then to Long Island and over the city. Straight through the triple NYC TCA at 3500 or whatever ATC told us to maintain. On to Montauk airport. North to the mainland somewhere just east of New London. Follow the coastline around to Rhode Island Sound (Buzzards Bay maybe?) then continue across to Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. From there, across to Cape Cod, over Boston to Plum Island. West to Springfield Conn then sort of direct back to the farm in Upstate NY. Avoid the rare R- circle on the charts, contact towers as needed to get in and out and all was good.

Consider the hassles of making that flight tomorrow morning without calling FSS or getting any kind of notam breifing at all. It was no big deal routine run of the mill flying then. Today I'd guess you'd be risking gitmo or at least a serious spanking by the FSDO if you did it exactly how we did it then. The dreaded ADIZ was some offshore or national boundary thing that was a total non issue and even then it was a non event when the line needed to be crossed. No double secret ultraviolet secret passwords were needed.


On roadtrips with ground vehicles I pull into airport parking lots around 7-10pm and overnight without telling anyone then leave in the morning. I would often just walk out onto the ramps and drool on airplanes or sit in the grass between the taxiway and runway and watch planes takeoff and land if I got there early enough or in the mornings. I still do that in general however since 2001, I've gotten the hairy eyeball numerous times and I've been questioned twice about who what when where why - once was by the local sheriff. Nowadays if the FBO is open, I always make sure I go in as soon as I get things shut down. At laid back podunk airports it's still no big deal however if there's a city nearby, ish, I'll just drive by and keep going.

I've been around airplanes for 40+ years and today I'm intimidated by some GA airports. The one near my parents house that I use to fly from regularly was really scary about 3 years ago. That relaxed little airport has turned into something that makes the low security prison and state patrol facilities 3 miles from where I am right now look like nothing. The airport looks like this: Really tall fences, razor wire on top. Locked gates. More warning signs than I've ever seen in my life. The fairly small parking lot is surrounded by very intimidating fences on all sides except the entry road. The place was absolutely devoid of human life like an abandoned city would be. There wa a learn to fly here sign however the place was so gustappo that I turned around and left. Besides, I wasn't sure how to go in to chat with them or to talk about going flying since the gate to the FBO was locked. BTW, that was a saturday afternoon where in the old day it would have dozens of people all over the place and airplanes moving all over the place. I really hope other airports are not like that.
 
Yes.

GA would be better without Temporary Flight Restrictions.
GA would be better without TSA badging at Class C Airports
GA would be better without a lockout around the entire DC Metro area
GA would be better without having a passenger manifest requirement to leave the United States
GA would be better without the TSA

But then again, GA would be better had the airlines learned to not hit each other back in the day and not caused us to have the FAA to start the process of destruction. 9/11 and TSA just completed it.

So - GA would be better, but probably not for very long.
 
>>GA would be better off without prohibiting people from taking
>>pictures of aircraft.
>
> I have never heard this before. Who stopping whom from taking
> pictures of what aircraft? I take pictures all the time and have never
> been stopped, even when walking on a military ramp and snapping
> shots of military aircraft.

It hasn't happened to me, but I have heard reports. I may be able to
find more info.

http://www.nationalterroralert.com/...dropped-against-woman-arrested-near-ang-base/

http://digital-photography-school.com/go-take-a-photo-of-an-airliner-landing

You really haven't heard of people being questioned when taking pictures outside of airport property?
 
Who stopping whom from taking pictures of what aircraft?
I have heard of people being stopped at FBOs where there is a lot of corporate traffic. I think it's mostly to maintain the privacy of their customers than anything to do with 9/11 though. I was surprised that no one stopped me from taking this picture, though, right after Cheney had gotten off (while he was still VP).
 

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Although airplane prices had been soft for a year prior, they plummeted after 9-11, recovery took three years.

Layoffs and cutbacks at GA manufacturers and supply chain companies were widesrpead and significant.

Market for pilots and other aviation jobs collapsed for both carriers and GA. Some laid off then have yet to be called back.

TSA and others got their start (and their mandate) as a result of 9-11.

I think the industry took a hell of a hit.
 
9/11 has created an atmosphere of government paranoia and security hysteria that affects a whole lot more than just GA. 9/11 has cost the country billions and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future.

We now not only have the TSA but an entirely new bureaucracy called The Department of Homeland Security. Just the name of it rings of suppression and fear. It just does not feel American at all. Is Homeland like Motherland?

For all practical purposes, the terrorists of 9/11 have done more damage to the American way of life than anyone could ever have envisioned in their wildest of dreams.

If anyone of us could go back in time to just one week before 9/11 and were able to explain to people how America is today they would be shouted down, they never would accept that this could ever have happened to America. The "Patriot" act??

9/11 has affected just about everyone. You need a passport to visit Canada? Mexico? For a days shopping?

It has also demonstrated to our government just how apathetic, we as a people, have become to government mandates and suppressive restrictions. Government power doubled, or even tripled, overnight, in the name of security.

The terrorists of 9/11 achieved a much bigger victory than the events of that horrible day. Much, much, bigger. They changed the greatest nation on earth, in just one day. Probably forever.

John
 
The terrorists of 9/11 achieved a much bigger victory than the events of that horrible day. Much, much, bigger.
John

Agreed in spades, they never could have predicted our excessive and largely unjustified response, which hurt us way worse than the actual event.
 
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