Need help accessing damage!!!

J

jsadamson1

Pre-Flight
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
35
Display Name
Display name:
jsadamson1
So here is the deal,

I go to fly my sundowner to NOLA for my 5 year anniversary. Waiting patiently for the frost to go away, I am all packed up and sure enough I need a jump. I ask the lineman and he goes and gets the charger. Now mind you I have been jumped 4 times in the last 6 months or so by the same machine just different lineman. After he plugs me in I clearly state, this plane is a 12 volt system, and ask, that's a 12 volt charger right? He say ya it is. So I peek out the window, look to see the plug inserted correctly and tell him to turn it on. I go to start my plane and Incan tell something is wrong so right after it fired I turned it off and told him to unplug the charger. Smoke was filling the cabin and we all jumped out. I quickly realized it was the battery based on the smell and the battery acid spilling out the bottom on my plane (battery drain hole). I ask the guy again what voltage and setting he had the charger on and he said, it's one setting. I look at it and it's 24 volts!!!!!! There was a 12 option he claimed he "didnt know about" So now when I try to turn on my master, I get NOThING! I am hoping I lucked out in some fashion that my avionics were completely off and the avi master was off.

A few questions, what do I look for as possible reasons I have no power to gauges etc?

What legal action can take to hold this dude accountable for charging me 25 bucks to blow up my battery and damage who knows what?

As a side note, I had battery tested, while i still will have it swapped out, it tested out good. So I am thinking that something is stopping the power from getting anywhere or all my components are blow up!
 
Last edited:
You'll probably hear from several others that they always verify the cart settings prior to cart starts. Now you know why. What's on your airplane's checklist re this procedure? Master on or off? Did you follow it?
 
wabower said:
You'll probably hear from several others that they always verify the cart settings prior to cart starts. Now you know why. What's on your airplane's checklist re this procedure? Master on or off? Did you follow it?
Click to expand...

4 jumps in 6 months????? what the heck is going on there?
 
jsadamson1 said:
So here is the deal,

I go to fly my sundowner to NOLA for my 5 year anniversary. Waiting patiently for the frost to go away, I am all packed up and sure enough I need a jump. I ask the lineman and he goes and gets the charger. Now mind you I have been jumped 4 times in the last 6 months or so by the same machine just different lineman. After he plugs me in I clearly state, this plane is a 12 volt system, and ask, that's a 12 volt charger right? He say ya it is. So I peek out the window, look to see the plug inserted correctly and tell him to turn it on. I go to start my plane and Incan tell something is wrong so right after it fired I turned it off and told him to unplug the charger. Smoke was filling the cabin and we all jumped out. I quickly realized it was the battery based on the smell and the battery acid spilling out the bottom on my plane (battery drain hole). I ask the guy again what voltage and setting he had the charger on and he said, it's one setting. I look at it and it's 24 volts!!!!!! There was a 12 option he claimed he "didnt know about" So now when I try to turn on my master, I get NOThING! I am hoping I lucked out in some fashion that my avionics were completely off and the avi master was off.

A few questions, what do I look for as possible reasons I have no power to gauges etc?

What legal action can take to hold this dude accountable for charging me 25 bucks to blow up my battery and damage who knows what?

As a side note, I had battery tested, while i still will have it swapped out, it tested out good. So I am thinking that something is stopping the power from getting anywhere or all my components are blow up!
Click to expand...

All that smoke came from some place, have a good A&P inspect the aircraft and find out what is chard and get an estimate to repair.

and get that battery acid out of the aircraft as quickly as you can or add a bunch of bucks to repair the skin at next annual.
 
Legal action? Really? You could call his boss and ask for your $25 back (they should do that anyways, as good businessmen), but the line guy making minimum wage wasn't the PIC on that incident. He may have made a mistake, but the onus was on you to verify the equipment plugged into your plane before you accepted power from it. You and he both messed up.

As far as why you're not getting power now...check all your breakers/fuses. Have the wiring checked. Without an electrical diagram it's hard to know all the places something could have gone wrong.
 
Teller1900 said:
Legal action? Really? You could call his boss and ask for your $25 back (they should do that anyways, as good businessmen), but the line guy making minimum wage wasn't the PIC on that incident. He may have made a mistake, but the onus was on you to verify the equipment plugged into your plane before you accepted power from it. You and he both messed up.

As far as why you're not getting power now...check all your breakers/fuses. Have the wiring checked. Without an electrical diagram it's hard to know all the places something could have gone wrong.
Click to expand...
I don't know about you - but I sure the hell don't know the specs for every ground power unit out there. Nor do I know where all the hidden switches are on it. It's not my job to know how to operate it. I'm paying them to operate it.

If I tell the FBO that I need 12 volt and they tell me they can give me 12 volt and in reality they give me 24 volt and break my equipment - damn right they're going to be paying to fix it.
 
jesse said:
I don't know about you - but I sure the hell don't know the specs for every ground power unit out there. Nor do I know where all the hidden switches are on it. It's not my job to know how to operate it. I'm paying them to operate it.

If I tell the FBO that I need 12 volt and they tell me they can give me 12 volt and in reality they give me 24 volt and break my equipment - damn right they're going to be paying to fix it.
Click to expand...

I'm with you.

Look at it this way: You asked for 100LL, and they sent out a lineman with Jet-A, who didn't know there was a difference. Wouldn't it be the FBOs fault for filling your tank with Jet-A when they were told 100LL?
 
Either a battery on its last legs or a persistent drain from something that's on a hot bus, if I had to guess.

Tom-D said:
4 jumps in 6 months????? what the heck is going on there?
Click to expand...
 
jesse said:
I don't know about you - but I sure the hell don't know the specs for every ground power unit out there. Nor do I know where all the hidden switches are on it. It's not my job to know how to operate it. I'm paying them to operate it.

If I tell the FBO that I need 12 volt and they tell me they can give me 12 volt and in reality they give me 24 volt and break my equipment - damn right they're going to be paying to fix it.
Click to expand...
It's their fault if they plug in 24V AND turn the plane on when you're not there. Absent that...no, it's just as much your fault.

I may not know all the switches on every GPU ever made, but I damn sure go look at the thing and make sure it has what I need before I bring the power inside my plane. It should be marked somewhere what the Volts and Amps are. And you better believe, too, that if we don't check it and fry the electronics, we're going to be the ones standing tall in front of the Chief Pilot...not the line guy.

It's routine for us...even if we recognize the GPU we check to make sure it's plugged into the right place before turning it on. And if we don't recognize it, we go out and look at it to make sure it's compatible (in our case 28V with 600A min, 1200-1600A instantaneous if we're going to use it for start). If we can't find the markings, can't be sure it's right, we don't use it. to use Nick's example...they pull up in a random unmarked tanker truck and try to put it in your gas tank, are you just going to take their word that it's clean AvGas?

None of those units are rocket science. Go take a look at it before you turn your plane on...save yourself a lot of headache. You don't trust the lineguys to preflight a rental plane, do you? Do you never check the gas cap after someone else fuels it? Why not have a second look at the power cart, too?

SkyHog said:
I'm with you.

Look at it this way: You asked for 100LL, and they sent out a lineman with Jet-A, who didn't know there was a difference. Wouldn't it be the FBOs fault for filling your tank with Jet-A when they were told 100LL?
Click to expand...
It would be their fault for doing it, but equally your fault for not stopping them. Same thing again...it's your plane, you're PIC, you have to check their work. I've heard of several guys doing the carpet dance because they weren't monitoring when the gas guy showed up and put 2000lbs of AvGas into a JetA tank. They're not experts on the plane, and if it's a small enough FBO, probably only marginally trained on the equipment (ask me how I know). It's your (PIC's) responsibility to ensure you're getting what you asked for.
 
jesse said:
I don't know about you - but I sure the hell don't know the specs for every ground power unit out there. Nor do I know where all the hidden switches are on it. It's not my job to know how to operate it. I'm paying them to operate it.

If I tell the FBO that I need 12 volt and they tell me they can give me 12 volt and in reality they give me 24 volt and break my equipment - damn right they're going to be paying to fix it.
Click to expand...

Don't bet your egg money on the outcome.
 
wabower said:
Don't bet your egg money on the outcome.
Click to expand...
I do my best to look at the GPU but I'm not renting a GPU. I'm paying the FBO to provide me with 12 volt power. If they fail to provide me with 12 volt power and that damages my equipment they will indeed be held responsible. It's pretty damn clear cut.
 
Teller1900 said:
It would be their fault for doing it, but equally your fault for not stopping them. Same thing again...it's your plane, you're PIC, you have to check their work. I've heard of several guys doing the carpet dance because they weren't monitoring when the gas guy showed up and put 2000lbs of AvGas into a JetA tank. They're not experts on the plane, and if it's a small enough FBO, probably only marginally trained on the equipment (ask me how I know). It's your (PIC's) responsibility to ensure you're getting what you asked for.
Click to expand...
It's fairly easy as a pilot to determine the fuel. It's less easy for a typical general aviation private pilot to understand the operation of every GPU out there. They're not so obvious when looking at them.

This is not a professional pilot operating a multi-million dollar airplane Matt. He has no boss to report to. He is the boss and the FBO is whom he will hold responsible.

I have a better then average understanding of electricity - but there is no way I would ever accept full responsibility for the power output of a GPU. I simply do not have the equipment to verify that it's outputting what I need. Instead I tell the FBO what kind of power I need and they can either commit to providing me that or not. It is their equipment. If they tell me they can provide power meeting my specification and they fail to do so and that damages my equipment. They, will indeed, be held responsible. By me. I'm not going to fire myself.

I simply do not care if they are paying their line employee $8 per hour or $800 per hour. It's none of my business. I'm not going to hold their line guy responsible. I'm going to hold the FBO responsible that damaged my equipment by giving me power that was incompatible with what I specified. If that happened because they didn't train their staff - well then they shouldn't be permitting their staff to operate power units that hook up to expensive equipment.

Yes I realize if you're a professional pilot operating expensive equipment your chief pilot may hold you responsible as well. That's his decision. But you can bet your ass the business folks are going to be after that FBO for the damage they caused.

You are confusing the difference between yourself Matt and the typical GA pilot operating equipment he owns.
 
Last edited:
I understand your position, but stand by my previous post about the uncertainty of the outcome. Maybe because I've seen too many similar cases.

jesse said:
I do my best to look at the GPU but I'm not renting a GPU. I'm paying the FBO to provide me with 12 volt power. If they fail to provide me with 12 volt power and that damages my equipment they will indeed be held responsible. It's pretty damn clear cut.
Click to expand...
 
when you offer a service, there is an implied warrantee that says you'll do it correctly. not training the line doing the service is the responsibility of the FBO/??

The FBO has failed on their commitment to the customer, on both counts.
 
Last edited:
jesse said:
If I tell the FBO that I need 12 volt and they tell me they can give me 12 volt and in reality they give me 24 volt and break my equipment - damn right they're going to be paying to fix it.
Click to expand...
I agree -- but I hope you have a witness or two to the conversation between you and the line guy. In any event, you should be talking to the management of that FBO about the damage, and what they're going to do to make it right. If they refuse, call a lawyer.
 
I did have a drain on the electrical system but solved that problem. It's been a while since I last flew.

While I am obviously partial to take the side where I hold the FBO accountable, I still see where everyone is coming from. In my situation, I specifically ask the guy what his system was and told him mine was a 12 volt. If you are a lineman and you are going to take the responsibility for hooking up planes to voltage, then I think you should be either confident enough to know your system and ask questions or tell the pilot you are not sure and don't want the liability. I agree with the people who have stated that it is too hard to know how to work everyone's power unit. Not to mention, it's a service I paid for. If your plane was in the shop and they ruined it, would you not hold the shop accountable??
 
jsadamson1 said:
While I am obviously partial to take the side where I hold the FBO accountable, I still see where everyone is coming from. In my situation, I specifically ask the guy what his system was and told him mine was a 12 volt. If you are a lineman and you are going to take the responsibility for hooking up planes to voltage, then I think you should be either confident enough to know your system and ask questions or tell the pilot you are not sure and don't want the liability. I agree with the people who have stated that it is too hard to know how to work everyone's power unit. Not to mention, it's a service I paid for. If your plane was in the shop and they ruined it, would you not hold the shop accountable??
Click to expand...
If the line person put Jet A in your piston powered plane after telling you the truck contained 100LL, would you hold them accountable? Line crew should be trained on the equipment they operate -- no excuse if they aren't.
 
Ive seen this before and the most likely outcome will be the owner turns it into his insurance co and they will pay for the repairs and then go after the FBO for recovery and the FBO's insurance pays up, if they have any.
 
Ron Levy said:
I agree -- but I hope you have a witness or two to the conversation between you and the line guy. In any event, you should be talking to the management of that FBO about the damage, and what they're going to do to make it right. If they refuse, call a lawyer.
Click to expand...

Thankfully I did have my wife right there who heard the entire conversation. Hopefully if I have to go that route, that will hold up. I will be contacting them tomorrow about the situation. Wish me luck
 
Having your wife as the sole witness is less than ideal, as some might think she might be biased.

FBO's are sometimes cooperative, sometimes not. Less than six miles away from my office sits a G-III with a scuffed winglet and some light-colored paint visible along the top (protruding) edge. A few months ago, a King Air that was regularly parked next to the G-III in the FBO hangar was discovered to have a front-to-back indentation (scrape) in the vertical tail that perfectly matched the height of the winglet.

The paint transfer on the winglet matches the color on the tail of the King Air. The FBO is the only party allowed to move planes in the hangar. The FBO declined to pay for the damage to the King Air, which is now hangared at another facility. The G-III's owner and crew have disavowed any knowledge of contact between the two airplanes. The King Air's insurance carrier paid $22,000 for the repair.


jsadamson1 said:
Thankfully I did have my wife right there who heard the entire conversation. Hopefully if I have to go that route, that will hold up. I will be contacting them tomorrow about the situation. Wish me luck
Click to expand...
 
Im guessing your starter turned uber fast...



Tell the FBO that you will need your sensitive avionics tested, just because they turn on doesn't mean they didn't get F'd up. Not uncommon for transmitters to burn up during these deals....also not uncommon for everything to be just fine too. But if you smelled something than something could be wrong beyond the battery and it is their problem now to determine what that is.

Love what Beech does (circuit protection wise) in the Bonanza for this very instance.
 
Last edited:
jesse said:
It's fairly easy as a pilot to determine the fuel. It's less easy for a typical general aviation private pilot to understand the operation of every GPU out there. They're not so obvious when looking at them.

This is not a professional pilot operating a multi-million dollar airplane Matt. He has no boss to report to. He is the boss and the FBO is whom he will hold responsible.

I have a better then average understanding of electricity - but there is no way I would ever accept full responsibility for the power output of a GPU. I simply do not have the equipment to verify that it's outputting what I need. Instead I tell the FBO what kind of power I need and they can either commit to providing me that or not. It is their equipment. If they tell me they can provide power meeting my specification and they fail to do so and that damages my equipment. They, will indeed, be held responsible. By me. I'm not going to fire myself.

I simply do not care if they are paying their line employee $8 per hour or $800 per hour. It's none of my business. I'm not going to hold their line guy responsible. I'm going to hold the FBO responsible that damaged my equipment by giving me power that was incompatible with what I specified. If that happened because they didn't train their staff - well then they shouldn't be permitting their staff to operate power units that hook up to expensive equipment.

Yes I realize if you're a professional pilot operating expensive equipment your chief pilot may hold you responsible as well. That's his decision. But you can bet your ass the business folks are going to be after that FBO for the damage they caused.

You are confusing the difference between yourself Matt and the typical GA pilot operating equipment he owns.
Click to expand...
There should be not difference between him in his plane and me in mine. This has nothing to do with what I fly or how much it's worth. If you take the keys to a plane, whether it's worth $27M or $27K, you're accepting responsibility for it. I'm absolutely not saying that the FBO holds no culpability, they of course do, but so does the pilot. He may not have to answer to a chief pilot like I do, but he has to answer to himself and to his insurance company (are they really going to be happy with "well they told me it would be OK?) and perhaps to a wife. And he may have to get a jump again in the future; wouldn't it be better to check the unit next time, instead of just taking the line guy's word for it?

The second to last time I flew a piston single I needed a jump start. I wasn't in uniform. I wasn't flying as a "professional pilot." I was in jeans and a t-shirt flying a plane that weighs about as much as my car. I didn't even know where the power receptacle was on the airplane, let alone how to use it. But I got out the manual and read. And then I got out of the airplane and showed the lineguys (who knew way more than me about the plane). And then before they plugged the start cart in (it was my first time ever SEEING, let alone using a 14V start cart) I walked around the cart. I looked at it, read the placards, asked them questions, and THEN accepted the power. It took me an extra, what, three to five minutes? But I knew it was going to work when I hit the battery switch. I wasn't a "Professional Pilot" that day, but that doesn't mean I can't still be professional about my flying.

You may have a better than average understanding of electricity, but I certainly don't. I'm not an engineer; I'm a journalist by training and a pilot by trade. I've had no special training on GPUs. I just learn by looking at them and asking questions. After four years working the line and five years flying for pay I've never fried an airplane's electrical system...

You're absolutely right, it shouldn't matter what the guys are being paid, it should be one level of safety. But the bottom line is, it isn't. And we (the PICs) are the last line before something goes wrong. If their equipment FAILS and causes damage, then yes, they are fully accountable. But in the case of user error because the pilot didn't even try to verify the system before using it...the buck stops at the guy that hits the master switch.

jesse said:
I do my best to look at the GPU but I'm not renting a GPU. I'm paying the FBO to provide me with 12 volt power. If they fail to provide me with 12 volt power and that damages my equipment they will indeed be held responsible. It's pretty damn clear cut.
Click to expand...

Tom-D said:
when you offer a service, there is an implied warrantee that says you'll do it correctly. not training the line doing the service is the responsibility of the FBO/??

The FBO has failed on their commitment to the customer, on both counts.
Click to expand...
Again, I'm not saying that the FBO is free of all wrongdoing. But the responsibility, thus blame, is shared.

jsadamson1 said:
I did have a drain on the electrical system but solved that problem. It's been a while since I last flew.

While I am obviously partial to take the side where I hold the FBO accountable, I still see where everyone is coming from. In my situation, I specifically ask the guy what his system was and told him mine was a 12 volt. If you are a lineman and you are going to take the responsibility for hooking up planes to voltage, then I think you should be either confident enough to know your system and ask questions or tell the pilot you are not sure and don't want the liability. I agree with the people who have stated that it is too hard to know how to work everyone's power unit. Not to mention, it's a service I paid for. If your plane was in the shop and they ruined it, would you not hold the shop accountable??
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to sound like I'm coming down on you, I'm just saying don't expect the FBO to volunteer to pay for the repairs (who knows, hopefully they will) and it might behoove you to check next time. I don't expect you to be familiar with every type of power unit you might encounter, lord knows I'm not, but you found the 12/24 switch AFTER the fact, didn't you? Couldn't you have found it before, and avoided this all together?

The example of having the plane in the shop does not apply, I don't believe. In that case, they have accepted full responsibility for the plane; it is in their care and out of your hands. In this case, you flipped the switch on the airplane. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but that makes you at least partially responsible. But, as others have said, I'm sure it's neither here nor there...the insurance company will sort it from here.
 
taters said:
Im guessing your starter turned uber fast...



Tell the FBO that you will need your sensitive avionics tested, just because they turn on doesn't mean they didn't get F'd up. Not uncommon for transmitters to burn up during these deals....also not uncommon for everything to be just fine too. But if you smelled something than something could be wrong beyond the battery and it is their problem now to determine what that is.

Love what Beech does (circuit protection wise) in the Bonanza for this very instance.
Click to expand...

What does the bonanza have for this type of situation? I was told I may have a relay that blocks voltage spikes. After looking in my plane, I do have a relay that both leads off the battery go to first. I am hoping this is the case but won't know till I get a wiring diagram or have it tested. I am hoping since he turned his power on first before I turned on the master that it fried it first and stopped there!! We will see.

And yes, my starter was spinning rather fast. As soon as I realized it was too fast we also realized there was smoke and a foul smell.
 
I don't know what Bonanza's have, but I know relays don't block voltage spikes. (Heck, they're often the cause of them without a snubber.)
 
Teller1900 said:
There should be not difference between him in his plane and me in mine. This has nothing to do with what I fly or how much it's worth. If you take the keys to a plane, whether it's worth $27M or $27K, you're accepting responsibility for it. I'm absolutely not saying that the FBO holds no culpability, they of course do, but so does the pilot. He may not have to answer to a chief pilot like I do, but he has to answer to himself and to his insurance company (are they really going to be happy with "well they told me it would be OK?) and perhaps to a wife. And he may have to get a jump again in the future; wouldn't it be better to check the unit next time, instead of just taking the line guy's word for it?

The second to last time I flew a piston single I needed a jump start. I wasn't in uniform. I wasn't flying as a "professional pilot." I was in jeans and a t-shirt flying a plane that weighs about as much as my car. I didn't even know where the power receptacle was on the airplane, let alone how to use it. But I got out the manual and read. And then I got out of the airplane and showed the lineguys (who knew way more than me about the plane). And then before they plugged the start cart in (it was my first time ever SEEING, let alone using a 14V start cart) I walked around the cart. I looked at it, read the placards, asked them questions, and THEN accepted the power. It took me an extra, what, three to five minutes? But I knew it was going to work when I hit the battery switch. I wasn't a "Professional Pilot" that day, but that doesn't mean I can't still be professional about my flying.

You may have a better than average understanding of electricity, but I certainly don't. I'm not an engineer; I'm a journalist by training and a pilot by trade. I've had no special training on GPUs. I just learn by looking at them and asking questions. After four years working the line and five years flying for pay I've never fried an airplane's electrical system...

You're absolutely right, it shouldn't matter what the guys are being paid, it should be one level of safety. But the bottom line is, it isn't. And we (the PICs) are the last line before something goes wrong. If their equipment FAILS and causes damage, then yes, they are fully accountable. But in the case of user error because the pilot didn't even try to verify the system before using it...the buck stops at the guy that hits the master switch.



Again, I'm not saying that the FBO is free of all wrongdoing. But the responsibility, thus blame, is shared.


I'm not trying to sound like I'm coming down on you, I'm just saying don't expect the FBO to volunteer to pay for the repairs (who knows, hopefully they will) and it might behoove you to check next time. I don't expect you to be familiar with every type of power unit you might encounter, lord knows I'm not, but you found the 12/24 switch AFTER the fact, didn't you? Couldn't you have found it before, and avoided this all together?

The example of having the plane in the shop does not apply, I don't believe. In that case, they have accepted full responsibility for the plane; it is in their care and out of your hands. In this case, you flipped the switch on the airplane. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but that makes you at least partially responsible. But, as others have said, I'm sure it's neither here nor there...the insurance company will sort it from here.
Click to expand...

As for not verifying information, I did what any person would do, I asked the guy in charge of his equipment if it would match up with what I am in charge of which is my aircraft. If a lineman who I am paying a service for to jump my plane tells me to my face that his unit is a 12 volt unit, then what else should I asks him? Should I ask him if he is sure? Should I ask him twice to see if he changes his mind? I knew to ask for two reasons, first time I had a jump in a different plane, I was told of I ever needed a jump to ask what there system was before hooking power up, the other reason is because my airport has a heavy flow of military aircraft which I know is much different than my GA plane.

While in hindsight it would have been better to peek at the machine to verify the voltage (at minimum save me the hassle of all this) in every profession I have worked in, you are in charge of the equipment you operate, if it ruins someone's property while under your control, you are liable. If the lineman said, over there is the unit, put it back when your done, well that would make me responsible for the unit. Let's say I broke their unit, who would be held responsible??
 
Start carts aren't hard to understand, and most of the indicators are in plain sight for a reason. Making a quick sashay around the cart to determine/verify voltage and amperages is a prudent move. Always remember that one word = .001 picture.

jsadamson1 said:
As for not verifying information, I did what any person would do, I asked the guy in charge of his equipment if it would match up with what I am in charge of which is my aircraft. If a lineman who I am paying a service for to jump my plane tells me to my face that his unit is a 12 volt unit, then what else should I asks him? Should I ask him if he is sure? Should I ask him twice to see if he changes his mind? I knew to ask for two reasons, first time I had a jump in a different plane, I was told of I ever needed a jump to ask what there system was before hooking power up, the other reason is because my airport has a heavy flow of military aircraft which I know is much different than my GA plane.

While in hindsight it would have been better to peek at the machine to verify the voltage (at minimum save me the hassle of all this) in every profession I have worked in, you are in charge of the equipment you operate, if it ruins someone's property while under your control, you are liable. If the lineman said, over there is the unit, put it back when your done, well that would make me responsible for the unit. Let's say I broke their unit, who would be held responsible??
Click to expand...
 
jsadamson1 said:
What does the bonanza have for this type of situation? I was told I may have a relay that blocks voltage spikes. After looking in my plane, I do have a relay that both leads off the battery go to first. I am hoping this is the case but won't know till I get a wiring diagram or have it tested. I am hoping since he turned his power on first before I turned on the master that it fried it first and stopped there!! We will see.

And yes, my starter was spinning rather fast. As soon as I realized it was too fast we also realized there was smoke and a foul smell.
Click to expand...

I have had that happen so I know the feeling, the later Bonanzas have avionics switch which is normally closed and get powered open when the avionics master switch is off (applies a ground). You can fire up the avionics by pulling the Avionics CB out in fact. I was told this system was put in place to protect the avionics in a misguided GPU hook-up.
 
wabower said:
Start carts aren't hard to understand, and most of the indicators are in plain sight for a reason. Making a quick sashay around the cart to determine/verify voltage and amperages is a prudent move. Always remember that one word = .001 picture.
Click to expand...

I do not believe that the pilot is responsible for operation of the FBO equipment.

Just because it's an easy do, does not make it your responsibility.

When you over night at the local FBO and rent a hangar space for the night, and the line boy dents your aircraft while putting it away, is that your fault for not supervising the move?

more than 1 line boy has lost their job for less, because the FBO knows they are responsible for the training of, and the actions of their employees.
 
This kind of stuff happens ALL THE TIME. A prudent pilot will "trust but verify."

This bears home particularly to a corporate pilot far away from home. What is the boss going to say when he arrives at the plane and the crew has allowed some bozo to melt the airplane? Check everything all the time.
 
Teller1900 said:
There should be not difference between him in his plane and me in mine. This has nothing to do with what I fly or how much it's worth. If you take the keys to a plane, whether it's worth $27M or $27K, you're accepting responsibility for it. I'm absolutely not saying that the FBO holds no culpability, they of course do, but so does the pilot. He may not have to answer to a chief pilot like I do, but he has to answer to himself and to his insurance company (are they really going to be happy with "well they told me it would be OK?) and perhaps to a wife. And he may have to get a jump again in the future; wouldn't it be better to check the unit next time, instead of just taking the line guy's word for it?
Click to expand...
It's not always that easy to check. The insruance company isn't going to go after him, that's just ridiculous.

If his wife faults him for not receiving the power he requested - he needs a new one.

Teller1900 said:
The second to last time I flew a piston single I needed a jump start. I wasn't in uniform. I wasn't flying as a "professional pilot." I was in jeans and a t-shirt flying a plane that weighs about as much as my car. I didn't even know where the power receptacle was on the airplane, let alone how to use it. But I got out the manual and read. And then I got out of the airplane and showed the lineguys (who knew way more than me about the plane). And then before they plugged the start cart in (it was my first time ever SEEING, let alone using a 14V start cart) I walked around the cart. I looked at it, read the placards, asked them questions, and THEN accepted the power
Click to expand...
That's wonderful that you did that. But you're absolutely missing the point here Matt. If the FBO agrees to provide 12 volts of power to an aircraft and they instead provide 24 volts and that damages the aircraft. That FBO is liable. Period. You can say all you want about the pilot checking -- but that does NOT change the above.

We are not talking about the PIC's responsibility for a flight. The PIC knew the power he needed. He contracted with a company that said they'd provide him with that power. They instead provided incompatible power that damaged his equipment. They are liable. He did his duty.

Maybe he wants to hold himself to a higher standard. Maybe he doesn't. That's up to him. He's not working for someone that will -- nor should he really beat himself up for this. The FBO ****ed up.
 
taters said:
I have had that happen so I know the feeling, the later Bonanzas have avionics switch which is normally closed and get powered open when the avionics master switch is off (applies a ground). You can fire up the avionics by pulling the Avionics CB out in fact. I was told this system was put in place to protect the avionics in a misguided GPU hook-up.
Click to expand...

My Mooney 201 had that system as well.
 
kgruber said:
This kind of stuff happens ALL THE TIME. A prudent pilot will "trust but verify."

This bears home particularly to a corporate pilot far away from home. What is the boss going to say when he arrives at the plane and the crew has allowed some bozo to melt the airplane? Check everything all the time.
Click to expand...

That's great and everything but it really is not his responsibility to know how the cart works. How does he even know that the cart has a switch? Explicitly telling the line guy that you need 12v should be enough.

That said as PIC you are responsible for making sure your airworthy and fueled after the line guys work on your plane. I always, always check my fuel caps and visually verify that my airplane has the correct amount of fuel after I ask a line guy to top it off.

This saved my butt once. I had 4 passengers and some baggage in the warrior and fueled to tabs, would be just under gross weight. I flew down to Wilmington to stay for the weekend. When I got out of the plane I told the line guy I wanted it filled to tabs. 3 minutes later the fuel truck pulls up. I told the fuel guy I wanted it filled to tabs. He said ok, no problem. FYI the tabs on a warrior are very large and easy to see.

I return 2 days later, run through my preflight... and lo and behold, they topped the damn thing off. I had to make them drain the fuel out of it and refund me for the extra fuel. Had I not checked, I would have taken off considerably over gross. I was extremely ****ed.


^Anyway you are responsible as PIC for checking the plane after they work on it. But you expect them to know how to do their job and don't need to stand there and look over their shoulder. You expect a line guy to know how to properly fuel a piper. You don't have to sit there and tell him how to do it, but you should check afterwards that the caps are on and the correct amount of fuel. Same goes for jumpstarting. You tell him you need a 12v jump on a piper and expect that they are going to operate their cart correctly. You still need to check the plane is running properly before you go fly it, but you don't have to baby sit the line guy.
 
Last edited:
taters said:
I have had that happen so I know the feeling, the later Bonanzas have avionics switch which is normally closed and get powered open when the avionics master switch is off (applies a ground). You can fire up the avionics by pulling the Avionics CB out in fact. I was told this system was put in place to protect the avionics in a misguided GPU hook-up.
Click to expand...
The purpose of that system isn't to protect the avionics in the above situation - from an electrical prospective that doesn't add up. In fact, when the system has no power the avionics bus is actually on. When power is applied to the system there is a brief moment in time where the avionics are actually receiving power until the normally closed relay powers up and disconnects the circuit. So in reality there is actually less protection from this scenario. But the relay activates so fast you really can't tell.

When the relay is activated (powered up) it disconnects the avionics power circuit.
When the relay is not-activated (not powered) it reconnects the avionics power circuit.

The avionics master in a bo goes straight to the relay. When you turn the switch ON it actually removes power from the relay which then spring loads into the closed position and the power to the avionics is connected. When you turn the avionics master switch off it activates the relay which then removes power from the avionics.

So to sum this up...if the airplane has no juice then the relay has the avionics power circuit activated. Which is why it's not providing protection in the above scenario.


What it does do is this:

An avionics master switch failure is not the end of the world. You can simply pull the circuit breaker that powers that relay which then causes the relay to connect the power to the system. I suspect this is the main reason they did it.

They really should explain the above more in the POH. It doesn't protect anything, it probably protects things less, but it DOES provide a fail-safe.
 
Last edited:
kgruber said:
It is.
Click to expand...

Disagree. Do you need to know how to drive and operate the fuel truck before you ask the line guy to put fuel in your airplane? Do you need to know what all the switches and buttons and vents are on the fuel truck in order to let someone else put 100LL in your plane?

You tell the guy to put 100LL in the plane and then you let him do his job. Check the plane after he is done to make sure it was done right.

Tell the guy you need a 12volt jump and you get your jump and then check the plane to make sure it was done right.

There are alot of different types of carts out there. Do I need to know how to operate all of them?
 
Just get the repair bill, and small claims form. Go to the FBO manager and ask him whether he is going to just pay it or would rather go to court.

<---<^>--->
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top