Need a second oppinion.

Speedy

Speedy

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Speedy
Planing on a short hop tomorrow morning from KPGD to KGNV. The prog charts on Foreflight showing me "low cekings" at GNV if Im reading this right.

Got on DUATS and it don't look good either I think.

Could one you more experienced flyers take a look at this.

Can I leave earlier maybe ? Down here we are in the raining season pattern. By 2 pm, it's raining.

Thanks

Flying a B-23 Custom. Planing a 12:00 Z departure. :dunno:
 
I base my go/no-go decisions on my own thoughts and observations, and not the thoughts of strangers on the internet. You are the PIC, you should be the final authority on your flight.
 
I'm not "experienced", but go with your third sentence.
 
The go/no-go decision is yours alone. I make mine based on what conditions are and what I expect them to be, and my decisions are a lot more conservative than some peoples' and probably less so than others'.

For what it's worth... as a VFR pilot I avoid clouds like the plague, but I'll fly through rain if I can't go around it, and if visibility is still OK (by MY standards, not just "legal"). I know people who won't fly in rain, though, and I wouldn't argue the point with them. It's the PIC's call, and only his or hers.
 
Speedy said:
Planing on a short hop tomorrow morning from KPGD to KGNV. The prog charts on Foreflight showing me "low cekings" at GNV if Im reading this right.

Got on DUATS and it don't look good either I think.

Could one you more experienced flyers take a look at this.

Can I leave earlier maybe ? Down here we are in the raining season pattern. By 2 pm, it's raining.

:dunno:
Click to expand...
Prog charts don't really show you ceilings.

I took the time to look and all I can tell is that you need some work on weather analysis.

Not sure what you are looking at on DUATS.

Good chance to practice your weather analysis skills independent of whether you actually decide to go or not (and/or return).

Prog chart gives you the big picture including fronts and areas of precip. What do you see for the FL pennisula?

What you must read are TAFs for your 2 points and everything in between. Your departure time is a bit out there but it's covered in part - What do the TAFs tell you?

Based on what they say now, do you think you can make the flight safely? What altitude? What times.

Then look at the TAFs after the next cycle (I don't know the times but amendments come out too). The next cycle will cover more of your flight and presumably be a bit more accurate. What do the TAFs tell you then?

Com'on, get in there and read the weather. It's all available in plain language. Make a go/no go decision each update. Then see how the METARs match the forecast for your planned departure.

Given what seems to be some unfamiliarity with the reports, looks like a no/go but a good chance to buff up those weather skills.
;)
 
Bill Watson said:
Prog charts don't really show you ceilings.
Click to expand...
If you're talking about the Surface Prog charts, you are correct, but here are other prog charts (such as the one I linked) which give categorical ceiling information (VFR/MVFR/IFR/LIFR), and there is also the MAV MOS prognostic graphics site which gives more detailed ceiling information.

Prog chart gives you the big picture including fronts and areas of precip.
Click to expand...
That's the Surface Prog chart. The Significant Wx Prog chart gives more information on ceilings, visibilities, and turbulence.

What you must read are TAFs for your 2 points and everything in between. Your departure time is a bit out there but it's covered in part - What do the TAFs tell you?
Click to expand...
Nothing really significant this far out. However, there are other tools for looking further into the future, especially the MAV MOS graphics (which my experience says few CFI's even know about, no less teach), and the 12/24 Sig Wx Progs (which seem to be a forgotten product these days).
 
Maule- While I applaud your admonition, I think it's a bit zealously misguided. Unfortunately, the private pilot curriculum is sorely lacking in weather training. I had a gut feeling but didn't understand HOW MUCH was missing until I took a weekend weather seminar with Scott D. In the course he showed us several examples of where the pilot got himself into Wx trouble, where he did all of the legal due diligence, but all of the needed information just wasn't there. IIRC some of the examples were from experienced pilots.

So unless one is a weather geek, the average pilot's Wx skills just don't do well beyond a couple hundren nm range.
 
I really like the I pad ForeFlight combo with Stratus weather.I bought that to help me go from central Florida to points north and back mostly.

How comfortable are you flying at 1000 feet and trying to avoid the towers, and the red and yellow areas you see in the weather charts? Do you have weather in the cockpit.

It might be hard to make a go decision until at your departure time.
 
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I looked at the Taf for gnv. It does look like an early morning flight might be possible. Obviously the forecast could change.
 
Thank you Cpt. Ron. As well as the other members who have contributed. I'll take a look later tonight but as of right now I think I'll drive to see y son. I do have weather on board. A G430W with XM as well as an Ipad with Foreflight.

I just bought this bird and this was to be the first trip however Im not yet familiar with this plane and don't need additional trouble with weather. No big deal. I've driven this route abot 20 times the last year. This will be Mammas first trip so I do not want to meke her uncorfortable.

Thanks again guys.
 
Speedy said:
This will be Mammas first trip so I do not want to meke her uncorfortable.

Thanks again guys.
Click to expand...

That right there is enough.
 
First of all, don't try to make go/no decision for a short VFR flight 24 hours in advance. Wake up, analyze the weather, make a decision, and live with it.

FWIW though, I think there is something beneficial about discussing go/no go decisions here. Hey, even the NWS guys discuss forecasts, so why can't we? I always enjoy hearing other people's opinions, even though the choice is the PICs alone. That said, an opinion without empirical weather data is not very helpful.
 
Speedy said:
Thank you Cpt. Ron. As well as the other members who have contributed. I'll take a look later tonight but as of right now I think I'll drive to see y son. I do have weather on board. A G430W with XM as well as an Ipad with Foreflight.

I just bought this bird and this was to be the first trip however Im not yet familiar with this plane and don't need additional trouble with weather. No big deal. I've driven this route abot 20 times the last year. This will be Mammas first trip so I do not want to meke her uncorfortable.

Thanks again guys.
Click to expand...
Not sure if this is appropriate and if not I am sorry, but I am not sure I would make such along cross country irregardless of the weather in anew(to you) bird you are not familiar with. Knowing the area(my bird is in the T200 hangars) why not make a short trip to CHN, or X14 to become familiar with the plane, and then maybe OKE or FXE or LAL before GNV.
 
Brad Z said:
First of all, don't try to make go/no decision for a short VFR flight 24 hours in advance. Wake up, analyze the weather, make a decision, and live with it.
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This.

FL weather changes so much in the summer its hard to know what you can do this far ahead. Start looking at it tomorrow, most likely it will have completely changed.
 
  1. I am thinking that the weather looks perfect for tomorrow morning. Each to his/her own!


Aviation Digital Data Service (ADDS)

Output produced by TAFs form (0143 UTC 15 June 2013)
found at http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/tafs/

Forecast for: KSRQ (SARASOTA/BRADENT, FL, US) Text: KSRQ 142338Z 1500/1524 29009KT P6SM SCT030 BKN250 Forecast period: 0000 to 0400 UTC 15 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the WNW (290 degrees) at 10 MPH (9 knots; 4.7 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Ceiling: 25000 feet AGL Clouds: scattered clouds at 3000 feet AGL
broken clouds at 25000 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period Text: FM150400 25004KT P6SM SCT250 Forecast period: 0400 to 1500 UTC 15 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the WSW (250 degrees) at 5 MPH (4 knots; 2.1 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Clouds: scattered clouds at 25000 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period Text: FM151500 28005KT P6SM SCT035 SCT250 Forecast period: 1500 to 1900 UTC 15 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the W (280 degrees) at 6 MPH (5 knots; 2.6 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Clouds: scattered clouds at 3500 feet AGL
scattered clouds at 25000 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period Text: FM151900 28010KT P6SM BKN250 Forecast period: 1900 UTC 15 June 2013 to 0000 UTC 16 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the W (280 degrees) at 12 MPH (10 knots; 5.2 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Ceiling: 25000 feet AGL Clouds: broken clouds at 25000 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period Forecast for: KMCO (ORLANDO , FL, US) Text: KMCO 150125Z 1501/1524 26006KT P6SM FEW100 BKN150 OVC250 Forecast period: 0100 to 0600 UTC 15 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the W (260 degrees) at 7 MPH (6 knots; 3.1 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Ceiling: 15000 feet AGL Clouds: few clouds at 10000 feet AGL
broken clouds at 15000 feet AGL
overcast cloud deck at 25000 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period Text: FM150600 29004KT P6SM SCT040 BKN200 Forecast period: 0600 to 1400 UTC 15 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the WNW (290 degrees) at 5 MPH (4 knots; 2.1 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Ceiling: 20000 feet AGL Clouds: scattered clouds at 4000 feet AGL
broken clouds at 20000 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period Text: FM151400 07008KT P6SM SCT040 SCT250 Forecast period: 1400 to 1800 UTC 15 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the ENE (70 degrees) at 9 MPH (8 knots; 4.2 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Clouds: scattered clouds at 4000 feet AGL
scattered clouds at 25000 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period Text: FM151800 08013KT P6SM SCT050 Forecast period: 1800 UTC 15 June 2013 to 0000 UTC 16 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the E (80 degrees) at 15 MPH (13 knots; 6.8 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Clouds: scattered clouds at 5000 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period Forecast for: KGNV (GAINESVILLE , FL, US) Text: KGNV 142328Z 1500/1524 21008KT P6SM VCTS BKN035CB Forecast period: 0000 to 0200 UTC 15 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the SSW (210 degrees) at 9 MPH (8 knots; 4.2 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Ceiling: 3500 feet AGL Clouds: broken clouds at 3500 feet AGL Weather: VCTS (thunderstorm in vicinity) Text: TEMPO 1500/1502 VRB15G25KT 3SM -TSRA BKN025CB Forecast period: 0000 to 0200 UTC 15 June 2013 Forecast type: TEMPORARY: The following changes expected for less than half the time period Winds: variable direction winds at 17 MPH (15 knots; 7.8 m/s)
gusting to 29 MPH (25 knots; 13.0 m/s) Visibility: 3 miles (5 km) Ceiling: 2500 feet AGL Clouds: broken clouds at 2500 feet AGL Weather: -TSRA (light rain associated with thunderstorm(s)) Text: FM150200 13003KT P6SM SCT030 Forecast period: 0200 to 1400 UTC 15 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the SE (130 degrees) at 3 MPH (3 knots; 1.6 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Clouds: scattered clouds at 3000 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period Text: FM151400 09008KT P6SM SCT035 Forecast period: 1400 UTC 15 June 2013 to 0000 UTC 16 June 2013 Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change Winds: from the E (90 degrees) at 9 MPH (8 knots; 4.2 m/s) Visibility: 6 or more miles (10+ km) Clouds: scattered clouds at 3500 feet AGL Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Maule- While I applaud your admonition, I think it's a bit zealously misguided. Unfortunately, the private pilot curriculum is sorely lacking in weather training. I had a gut feeling but didn't understand HOW MUCH was missing until I took a weekend weather seminar with Scott D. In the course he showed us several examples of where the pilot got himself into Wx trouble, where he did all of the legal due diligence, but all of the needed information just wasn't there. IIRC some of the examples were from experienced pilots.

So unless one is a weather geek, the average pilot's Wx skills just don't do well beyond a couple hundren nm range.
Click to expand...
I thought being a pilot means being a weather geek!

It's all about having a mission... or making one up. The best way to learn more about the weather is to try to get somewhere on a given date. As long as you aren't somewhere with 360 days of CAVU, having a cross country mission will force you to learn more about weather. You just have to make sure there is a plan B that doesn't involve flying.

There are so many resources (Thanks for the link Cap'n Ron) that the only excuse for not knowing more is not working at it. But it is tough if you don't have the motivation of a mission.

Bill "already waiting for our local TV geek's 7 day forecast in prep for next weekend's trip to NYC" Watson
 

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Hi All, It is 4:19 am and the above is between PGD and GVL. This would be a bit of a challenge to fly through at the moment for me. I would not go right now on that trip.

edit: It looks like the image is not a screen shot but a dynamic image. So now at 7 am the trip looks like it is doable.
 
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Just spoke with the briefer. I have decided to wait until about 11 am EDT to leave. According to the briefer, that line of weather should have decipated by then. As long as I make it there by 2 pm EDT I should be fine.

Thanks for all the help. YES I DO need to learn A LOT MORE on weather.

Thanks again. Will report upon my return Sunday.
 
I have found that reading the forecast discussion helps me immensely. So much so that I tend to use the discussions as just about my sole weather source until I get to <24hrs. Then I start looking at all the other weather info.

For the OP, here are the links to the forecast discussions that may be relevant to you (these three cover the entire Florida peninsula):

Jacksonville (covers as far south as OCF): http://www.crh.noaa.gov/product.php...X&product=AFD&format=txt&version=1&glossary=0
Tampa: http://forecast.weather.gov/product...W&product=AFD&format=txt&version=1&glossary=0
Miami: http://forecast.weather.gov/product...L&product=AFD&format=txt&version=1&glossary=0
 
Speedy said:
Just spoke with the briefer. I have decided to wait until about 11 am EDT to leave. According to the briefer, that line of weather should have decipated by then. As long as I make it there by 2 pm EDT I should be fine.

Thanks for all the help. YES I DO need to learn A LOT MORE on weather.

Thanks again. Will report upon my return Sunday.
Click to expand...


I am glad that you are considering going. Now at 7 am to me the line of storms that looked bad at 4 am look not so bad and that I could make your flight without much problem.
 
Like I said, get a good night sleep, wake up, check the weather and then go (or not) fly.
 
Brad Z said:
Like I said, get a good night sleep, wake up, check the weather and then go (or not) fly.
Click to expand...


Given that is the approach that we need to take towards flying I agree with the poster in the Red board who said, "if you are in a hurry, drive, if you have plenty of time use your small airplane." You need to be able to wait a few days sometimes to complete a long cross country due to weather issues.
 
Well we made it. I was able to stay away from the storms no problem. Flight flowing was very helpful. Now I'm waiting for Mamma to wake up and get ready for the return trip. Weather looks good right now for an 8 am departure back home.

The bird flew great. Not a bit of trouble.
 
That's great to hear!

As a pilot with a plane and a mission (20 trips by car, 100+ miles), you are on the beginning of a wonderful relationship with the weather.... and all the geeks that obsess over it.

One certainly does not need to be a weather geek to be a cross country pilot. I guess it's just another set of skills, introduced during training, that need to get filled in by investigation and practice.

Reflecting on my past, the mission that first immersed me in weather was the soaring. The mission was to soar every weekend day, and eventually to go somewhere every flight. Quite challenging anywhere but particularly in NJ.

At one point, I was using a grease pencil to plot graphs on a sheet of Skew-T paper I had mounted in a glass picture frame. Now I see Skew-T discussions here on this board and I barely have a clue as to what they are talking about.

Now, with much more time and flexibility, I spend most of my weather analysis time figuring out what day to leave and return rather than what the weather will be on a given day.... But I relish those opportunities to try and hit a time and date 100s of mile a away.

Bill "it's all about a mission" Watson
 
Speedy said:
Well we made it. I was able to stay away from the storms no problem. Flight flowing was very helpful. Now I'm waiting for Mamma to wake up and get ready for the return trip. Weather looks good right now for an 8 am departure back home.

The bird flew great. Not a bit of trouble.
Click to expand...

I used to go out of my way to try to scrub a mission due to weather phobia. I am glad that you got the mission in.
 
Ron Levy said:
Thanks for that info -- when we start IR training, I'll be expecting your weather knowledge to be exceptional. :D
Click to expand...

ChrisK said:
Baha. Busted! ;)
Click to expand...

I thought for sure I shared that with you:lol:. I took his course after we had our last telephone consult on Area Forecasts. I think about a week later....

After I went to the course, I had a wonderful day VFR XC flight. The return flight at night...wasn't as fun, and I shared that with you too. I haven't continued to practice those skills much, as my XC trips waned. And now that we have the family hauler, I may as well get a single seat airplane for boring holes in the sky.

But I still look forward to IR training:goofy::goofy::goofy:


Kudos to the OP for making mission. We await him to post about the return trip.
 
Well guys the return trip was a little more eventful. About 40 minutes out of Gainesville I switched tanks. The fuel pressure went to 1.3 on the right tank. It was 5.0 on the left. I switched back to the left and back to normal I went. I decided to land in Lakeland and check it out. After landing and while taxi, I switched back to the right tank. Engine immediately stopped.

No mechanic available on Sundays. Called a friend and he told me to check the fuel vent under the wing. Stick a coat hanger in there he said. I did. Some black stuff came out. Got back in, fired her up. I went to the right tank and she kept good pressure. Took off and while at cruise, I switched over and no problems. Made it home with no further incident. Had an A&P check it Monday. He replaced both fuel vent hoses. I flew her this morning for about one hour switching tanks and no more problems.

I will admit that the first time I saw that fuel pressure down to almost zero my a$$ puckered right up. Now I think I'll switch tanks while taxing and make sure both have good pressure.

I have fallen in love with this Mouse.
 
Speedy said:
Well guys the return trip was a little more eventful. About 40 minutes out of Gainesville I switched tanks. The fuel pressure went to 1.3 on the right tank. It was 5.0 on the left. I switched back to the left and back to normal I went. I decided to land in Lakeland and check it out. After landing and while taxi, I switched back to the right tank. Engine immediately stopped.

No mechanic available on Sundays. Called a friend and he told me to check the fuel vent under the wing. Stick a coat hanger in there he said. I did. Some black stuff came out. Got back in, fired her up. I went to the right tank and she kept good pressure. Took off and while at cruise, I switched over and no problems. Made it home with no further incident. Had an A&P check it Monday. He replaced both fuel vent hoses. I flew her this morning for about one hour switching tanks and no more problems.

I will admit that the first time I saw that fuel pressure down to almost zero my a$$ puckered right up. Now I think I'll switch tanks while taxing and make sure both have good pressure.

I have fallen in love with this Mouse.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the report on the return trip. I sure saw a lot of "red" on my radar Foreflight last night in the state of Florida so you were right to be careful about the weather. You don't want to be flying into the "red". One of my flying instructors doesn't like to fly into the yellow, another one is ok with that.

I am also glad that you got home safely. I have a 1978 Piper Warrior and unfortunately part of the game is dealing with various issues such as you had. The 1978 version of the Warrior is worth about 40k, new ones are out of my budget at 300K plus! Of course new planes can have issues too.
 
Glad you caught the potential fuel starvation issue. Did you save a sample of the gunk?
 
You had mentioned that you just bought the plane. I found that I had to work through a mag that was moody with my airplane. Had a mag out episode over Leesburg which I thought of when you were talking about your fuel tank episode. The 2nd mag got me home safely.

It seems like we pilots have to work through issues when we get "new to us" airplanes.
 
I did save some Jaybird. Looked like dirt but sticky. The other side was clean. The A&P said sometimes the fumes create a sticky substance around the edges of the vent tube. Another issue was that the previous owner flew the plane a grand total of 192 hours in 10 years. Said that nothing hurts a plane more than sitting in the hanger. I've had the plane 16 days and have put 12 hours on it. There's bound to be some more hidden squawks down the line.
 
I live in California, but learned to fly in Sweden and the UK. I'm constantly amazed at how little tolerance there is for any kind of weather amongst VFR pilots in So Cal. If there's as much as a cloud in the sky, the whole fleet's sitting in the hangar. It's a like a graveyard out there on days with a ceiling. Where I learned to fly, if you couldn't stand a little weather you simply couldn't fly for the next 6 months - simple as that. So all this wx gun shyness might seem like a real safe option, but in fact it's the opposite.

My view might differ, but I think it is an essential VFR skill to be able to fly in weather that isn't perfect. This is a skill that a new pilot needs to develop. There is nothing unsafe about it if approached correctly, just make sure you have some basic instrument skills in in your knowledge bank. Some are part of the basic PPL syllabus, but it wouldn't hurt to have an hour or two more. You need to find your own personal comfort level. It varies from pilot to pilot.

I've certainly flown my fair share into stupid weather and gotten my a** handed to me, but I've also learned more from that than maybe any other flying I've done. Today I have a pretty good idea of what I can take and what I can't. You can always turn around and you can always land. If you truly are willing to live by those two decrees, you will not make a fool of yourself or endanger your own security. But you have to stick to them when the going gets tough. It's when you don't, that bad stuff happens.

I've flown down to 500ft VFR ceilings in my twin with somewhere between 1-3 mile visibility. This is no fun at all, but in a twin, and with good knowledge of the land, or being prudent and following roads and staying well atop of any topography or obstructions, it can be done. On a single, I'd probably want a a little more margin. Honestly, I'll fly 1000ft ceilings all day long, but once they creep under that I'm pretty much heading for a landing spot, personally. Combine with rain, or vis creeping down towards 1 mile, hilly terrain and that tolerance goes down a lot more. Good thing about wx is that it never stays bad for that long. I've done tens of thousands of nautical miles in major cross country flying (VFR) and I've never gotten stuck more than a few hours. Actually, not true - I had to give up coming into the LA basin once after a 3000nm trip return and back. It was so frustrating having to give up about 30nm from my home airport, but it couldn't be helped. The wx was to the ground and there was no way around it. Came back and picked the airplane up a few days later.

Next time there's bad weather, don't cancel your trip or your flying lesson. Give yourself some more time and go out and see if you can work your way through it safely either on your own or with your instructor. In most cases it can be done. If not, you just land and wait it out or make other arrangements.
 
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Speedy said:
Now I think I'll switch tanks while taxing and make sure both have good pressure.
Click to expand...
Always a good idea, but remember the behavior on the ground at low fuel flows is often different than in the air, moving 100+ knots, and at higher fuel flows.
Also, a restriction may allow the bird to idle, and even to run up, but not provide enough fuel for takeoff or cruise.
Just saying, ground checks don't always equal air behavior.

Personally, I switch tanks once in cruise or cruise climb, and closely watch the fuel pressure for a few minutes. That's the same point at which the boost pump goes off.
 
Speedy said:
Well guys the return trip was a little more eventful. About 40 minutes out of Gainesville I switched tanks. The fuel pressure went to 1.3 on the right tank. It was 5.0 on the left. I switched back to the left and back to normal I went. I decided to land in Lakeland and check it out. After landing and while taxi, I switched back to the right tank. Engine immediately stopped.

No mechanic available on Sundays. Called a friend and he told me to check the fuel vent under the wing. Stick a coat hanger in there he said. I did. Some black stuff came out. Got back in, fired her up. I went to the right tank and she kept good pressure. Took off and while at cruise, I switched over and no problems. Made it home with no further incident. Had an A&P check it Monday. He replaced both fuel vent hoses. I flew her this morning for about one hour switching tanks and no more problems.

I will admit that the first time I saw that fuel pressure down to almost zero my a$$ puckered right up. Now I think I'll switch tanks while taxing and make sure both have good pressure.

I have fallen in love with this Mouse.
Click to expand...

When you said you switched to the right tank and the engine stopped immediately, how immediate was it? If less than a few minutes, you have another problem. It would take a while at idle, with a clogged fuel vent, to draw enough fuel and create a vacuum to stop the fuel flow.
If the fuel selector was at fault and stopped the flow from the right tank, the engine, at idle, would still run for a while as it consumed the fuel remaining in the carb fuel bowl.
So, how immediate was the engine stop when you switched tanks?
 
A valid point, a useful experiment is to shut the fuel off on the ground and see how long it takes for the engine to sputter. Here is a hint,

I once "fixed" a plane who's engine quit while pulling onto the runway, pilot had started, taxied, run up and started to take the runway all with the fuel off. Had the taxi time been less or the run up skipped or any number of other variables the thing could have kept running long enough to get him into the air.
 
You need a second opinion?

[insert Rodney Dangerfield type comment here]
 
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