Need a reality check on 10+ year old DUI

U

Uncertified

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I'm not a pilot, but I'd like to become a private pilot. I'm not looking to change careers or anything, just looking to start a fun hobby.

A little over ten years ago I got a DUI, blew a .18. This was long before I ever even thought about being a pilot. No incidents since then.

I went to see an AME today for a medical. He told me that despite ten years of a clean record, that I am considered "dependent" on alcohol, and in order to get certified I will have to agree to complete abstinence, attend AA meetings, and submit to random alcohol testing.

To someone uninitiated like me, this sounds absurd. The doctor kept referring to me as an alcoholic. Doesn't ten years of a clean record mean anything? Why would I attend AA meetings when I haven't had an incident in a decade? What the hell am I supposed to say at the meetings?

I'm hoping maybe the doctor was having an off day or something. He did not officially do an exam, he just kind of scared me off of it. Was he right, and I'm the crazy one?
 
Believe it or not, we get this same post about every week here. I'd recommend the search feature and read some of the other threads. The doctor wasn't giving personal opinion, he was giving FAA policy.

The FAA medical system is not about fairness. It isn't a court of law and it isn't about reality, it's about what might be. Your BAC meets the criteria that was set for them to be concerned and therefore you are deemed to be dependent for the purposes of flying. Because of that, you will have to enter the Human Intervention Motivational Study (HIMS) to be granted a medical. It's expensive, it's inconvenient and it's the only way you'll get to be a private pilot.

There is an option called sport pilot, which you do not need a medical for, just a driver's license. The training is less, but what you can do is limited too. And there's always gliders and ultralights.
 
There's a sticky FAQ thread, which has several versions of this question that have been asked in the past... including some success stories from people who did (ultimately) make it through the process, although, as bflynn has said, it required a lot of both time and money:

FAQ: DUI's and alcohol/drug abuse
 
Sport Pilot is probably your best option. You’ll be limited to flying in the daytime under visual flight rules, but that’s how most private flying takes place anyway. You’ll only be allowed a single passenger, and you’ll only be allowed to fly “Light Sport Aircraft.”

It’s really not that limiting. Sport Pilots can fly anywhere in the US or the Bahamas and people do long cross-country trips under Sport Pilot rules. Also, if you get a Sport Pilot license, all your training will count toward a Private ticket later.

Why not do Sport Pilot first and see if you’re satisfied with it? If not, then commit the time and money necessary to get an FAA medical.
 
Half Fast said:
Sport Pilot is probably your best option. You’ll be limited to flying in the daytime under visual flight rules, but that’s how most private flying takes place anyway. You’ll only be allowed a single passenger, and you’ll only be allowed to fly “Light Sport Aircraft.”

It’s really not that limiting. Sport Pilots can fly anywhere in the US or the Bahamas and people do long cross-country trips under Sport Pilot rules. Also, if you get a Sport Pilot license, all your training will count toward a Private ticket later.

Why not do Sport Pilot first and see if you’re satisfied with it? If not, then commit the time and money necessary to get an FAA medical.
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Thank you for the input. I am intrigued by that idea, but in my area (Chicago suburbs) I can't seem to find much information on either rentals of this type of plane or instructors.
 
kath said:
There's a sticky FAQ thread, which has several versions of this question that have been asked in the past... including some success stories from people who did (ultimately) make it through the process, although, as bflynn has said, it required a lot of both time and money:

FAQ: DUI's and alcohol/drug abuse
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Thank you for the response. Do you have any insight on how much time/money we're talking about here? I'd like to fly. I'm willing to spend some time and money to do this, but there is a limit.

In regards to the hurdles the AME suggested may be necessary, I am likewise open to some, but not necessarily all. I am willing to forgo alcohol for some time, and submit to reasonable testing. But I don't think I'm willing to go on an apology tour of psychiatrists and support groups for something that happened so long ago and for which I've long since paid my debt to family and society.
 
bflynn said:
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There is an option called sport pilot, which you do not need a medical for, just a driver's license. The training is less, but what you can do is limited too. And there's always gliders and ultralights.
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keep in mind that if you apply for a med certificate and are denied you cannot go for the Sport cert. think hard about this before submitting the required paperwork for the medical. just having a conversation the AME is not considered making application for the medical. I hold the Sport certificate and while I'm limited to a smaller 2-seat airplane along and daytime VFR flying I hold the necessary endorsements for flying to class D, C and B airspace.
 
Uncertified said:
Thank you for the input. I am intrigued by that idea, but in my area (Chicago suburbs) I can't seem to find much information on either rentals of this type of plane or instructors.
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i'm also in the chicago burbs. there is one school that, i believe, still has the LSA program. SimplyFly is located at the Chicago-Aurora airport (KARR).
https://www.simplyflyadventures.com/ last i recall they were using the Remos G3 and GX for Sport Pilot training. I have a few hours in those and the fly well. Good luck.
 
rk911 said:
keep in mind that if you apply for a med certificate and are denied you cannot go for the Sport cert. think hard about this before submitting the required paperwork for the medical. just having a conversation the AME is not considered making application for the medical. I hold the Sport certificate and while I'm limited to a smaller 2-seat airplane along and daytime VFR flying I hold the necessary endorsements for flying to class D, C and B airspace.
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Thank you. Yes, I left the doctor's office today thinking he was screwing me over, but I'm starting to realize he was probably trying to help. He didn't actually do the exam, he just warned me about what's ahead of me. My beef here appears to be with the FAA regulations, not with the AME.
 
Uncertified said:
Thank you. Yes, I left the doctor's office today thinking he was screwing me over, but I'm starting to realize he was probably trying to help. He didn't actually do the exam, he just warned me about what's ahead of me. My beef here appears to be with the FAA regulations, not with the AME.
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Right. Choose your battles wisely. The FAA is a windmill not worth tilting at.

Sounds like you might have an option for Sport Pilot training. After you have your ticket, though, rental options might be limited, so you may need to consider buying your own plane. There are decent options at almost every budget point.
 
Uncertified said:
I went to see an AME today for a medical.

He did not officially do an exam,
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Well, which one was it because it can't be both.


What do you mean by no more incidents? No more arrest? Do you still drink alcohol? If so, you're an alcoholic in FAA terms.
 
martym said:
Well, which one was it because it can't be both.
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I went to his office, expecting to get a medical exam. Instead I got a lecture about how problematic the FAA will find my history. We shook hands and I left. No exam took place.
 
Uncertified said:
I went to his office, expecting to get a medical exam. Instead I got a lecture about how problematic the FAA will find my history. We shook hands and I left. No exam took place.
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You got very lucky. If he put the medical through your options would've been severely limited.

Here's the deal. The FAA uses their own criteria to define substance dependence. For the 3rd class medicals required by private pilots the pertinent regulation is 14 CFR 67.307. You can google it.

The portion that is important to your situation is 14 CFR 67.307 (a)(4)(ii)(A) "Increased tolerance". The aeromedical certification division at the FAA has taken the stance that a DUI with .15 or greater BAC is demonstration of increased tolerance. With your DUI you will be deemed substance dependent. You'll have to go through the HIMS program (google it) and you'll spend at least $10k.

After completing the program and obtaining a medical certificate you will be required to undergo some form of monitoring for as long as you hold an FAA medical. You will be required to abstain from alcohol and mood altering substances for as long as you hold an FAA medical.

Your options are:
1. Do the above, get a medical and fly with the privileges afforded a private pilot with a 3rd class medical.
2. Do the above, get a medical. Allow that medical to expire. Complete the necessary steps to become compliant with BasicMed. Fly with the privileges of a private pilot under BasicMed. These privileges are less than a medical holding pilot, but the reduction probably doesn't impact 90% of private pilots.
3. Don't do the above. Fly under the light sport rules. You will not require a medical but you must fly aircraft that qualify under the light sport rules. Many of these aircraft are what the non-pilot public consider airplanes. These limitations are more restrictive than option #2, but many find them acceptable for the flying they'd like to do.
4. Fly an aircraft that does not require a medical, BasicMed, and doesn't meet the definition of an LSA. Options include ultralights, gliders, and balloons.
 
According to a quick google, only 2.27% of drivers have ever had a DUI. How is it that they all show up here? Honestly, I don’t drink, but am shocked by the frequency of this question posted to the board.
 
DesertNomad said:
According to a quick google, only 2.27% of drivers have ever had a DUI. How is it that they all show up here? Honestly, I don’t drink, but am shocked by the frequency of this question posted to the board.
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I got here after googling my situation, and I'm very grateful for the responses. I'm sorry for muddying up the forum, but it's actually been very informative.
 
Uncertified said:
I got here after googling my situation, and I'm very grateful for the responses. I'm sorry for muddying up the forum, but it's actually been very informative.
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No worries - it's just a very common topic here. I hope you can get things sorted out... with your medical and with alcohol in general.... the FAA really prefers zero consumption.
 
I'll just add this, as it addresses your question of "what am I supposed to do?" as you go through exams and AA meetings, should you choose that route.

Focus on the similarities, not the differences (this will be instantly recognized by those who know ;). Hopefully you can be sincere in acknowledging that alcohol was once a problem and that it has the potential to be a problem again. Even if you have to draw on some lifestyle choices from 10 years ago to identify with the people you'll be interacting with, I'd encourage you to do that.

Simply going through the process with an "I don't belong here but it's what the FAA says I have to do to fly" is potentially going to end up in you not getting where you want to be. Last but not least, I personally recommend (and so will many others on this board) that you NOT go through with the 3rd Class medical if you are not committed to abstain from alcohol for the life of exercising the pilot certificate, whether under the 3rd Class or Basic Med. It's just not a smart thing to do.
 
Even after 40 years you still need an evaluation. He has the Feds were set to intercept Film Director Roman Polanski for a 53 year ago event.

0.18 and making an effort to drive means tolerance. Tolerance can only be had by drinking long and hard and FAA knows that.

Above 0.149 the evaluation decision is between abuse and untreated dependency. Only the rarefied HIMS Psychiatrist can credibly make that call per part 67. No reputable one will even bother to see you until you have 6 months of urine random proven sobriety.

Abuse can be special issued after four months of proven sobriety; but dependency requires 6 months and the ability to discuss the difference between abstinence, and of recovery. You have to know what recovery is to be in recovery.

We never even got to, are you abstinent and if you say so, can you substantiate that? What. Any use of alcohol after abuse, is by part 67 definitions, dependency as in , “doesn’t stop”. “Keep watch” is 100% correct, too.

So that AME did you a service. You were thing “what’s the problem here...I’m fine”. Maybe sport pilot is the thing for you.....

For dependency, We are talking urine testing at $1,400 a year. Counselor at $150 a session. Weekly group aftercare, $3,000 evaluations by the psychiatrists and also under sone conditions by the psychologist, the HIMS AME’s time, twice a week logged AA attendance. This recurrent in some form for six years. Ya gotta want it bad.
 
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DesertNomad said:
According to a quick google, only 2.27% of drivers have ever had a DUI. How is it that they all show up here? Honestly, I don’t drink, but am shocked by the frequency of this question posted to the board.
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Just some rough guess math, 200 million drivers x 2% with dui x 0.6% of the population being a pilot = 20,000+ people googling how to deal with it.
 
There is another option, contact me offline if you want some details.
 
rk911 said:
i'm also in the chicago burbs. there is one school that, i believe, still has the LSA program. SimplyFly is located at the Chicago-Aurora airport (KARR).
https://www.simplyflyadventures.com/ last i recall they were using the Remos G3 and GX for Sport Pilot training. I have a few hours in those and the fly well. Good luck.
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Keep in mind that light sport can just be a regular airplane that qualifies as an LSA. A lot of the 2 seater "grasshoppers" are in that group, a lot of Piper Cubs, Taylorcrafts, and Aeroncas. They're cheaper and they're taildraggers, which some people care about. It doesn't have to be a 100k+ airplane built for light sport.
 
bflynn said:
Keep in mind that light sport can just be a regular airplane that qualifies as an LSA. A lot of the 2 seater "grasshoppers" are in that group, a lot of Piper Cubs, Taylorcrafts, and Aeroncas. They're cheaper and they're taildraggers, which some people care about. It doesn't have to be a 100k+ airplane built for light sport.
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Not just taildraggers. Don’t forget Ercoupes. Low wing, tricycle gear legacy airplanes. Even Sam Walton used to fly one.
 
Probably easiest, ya. I’ll forward direct contact info that way.
 
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Uncertified said:
I went to his office, expecting to get a medical exam. Instead I got a lecture about how problematic the FAA will find my history. We shook hands and I left. No exam took place.
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Correct because without an application completed on the FAA's MedXPress website, they can't do a medical.
 
Uncertified said:
Thank you for the input. I am intrigued by that idea, but in my area (Chicago suburbs) I can't seem to find much information on either rentals of this type of plane or instructors.
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Good news, bad news. First the bad news...you've got a LOT of hoops to jump through to get an FAA medical certificate. Now the good news...you're not far from the Bolingbrook, IL office of one of the premier docs in the country who handles difficult medical certifications...Dr. Bruce Chien. http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/ Hire him. Listen to his advice. Follow it to the letter. If anyone can help you navigate the FAA's minefield, it's Dr. Bruce.
 
Uncertified said:
...He didn't actually do the exam, he just warned me about what's ahead of me....
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Assuming you filled out the online MedXpress form, a key issue is whether the AME (or his staff) entered the confirmation number from that form into the system. If that happened, then the FAA considers an application to have been submitted, which would disqualify you from the sport-pilot option unless the medical-certification process were successfully completed. If it were me, I would want to confirm that this has not occurred.
 
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