>>>Need a Cessna 177 Cardinal RG checkout in Des Moines

Cessna150C

Cessna150C

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I'm looking for a CFI that is current in 177 RGs for a checkout in the Des Moine, IA area.
 
The only thing that's special about it is the W&B. Almost any commercial CFI can check you out competently. It's a Cessna retract.
 
Based on what I learned at Guy Maher's Cardinal Flight clinic, the C177RG is different enough from the other Cessna retracts that working with a CFI with lots of hours in type is a good idea.

If the OP was to post his request on the CFO mail forum, he would get some good responses.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Based on what I learned at Guy Maher's Cardinal Flight clinic, the C177RG is different enough from the other Cessna retracts that working with a CFI with lots of hours in type is a good idea.
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I second that opinion. I would not allow a CFI to check someone out in my plane without more than a few hours in make and model, and at least a couple in my specific bird.
If the OP was to post his request on the CFO mail forum, he would get some good responses.
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I think CFO's list is now restricted to paid-up members. They might make an exception for newbies to the breed looking for information, though. Best to contact Debbie Peterson.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Based on what I learned at Guy Maher's Cardinal Flight clinic, the C177RG is different enough from the other Cessna retracts that working with a CFI with lots of hours in type is a good idea.
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I don't know that you need someone with lots of hours on type, but at least someone with Cardinal experience. The landing gear is the same as other Cessna retracts, but that is is a very different handling airplane from a 172 or 182.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The landing gear is the same as other Cessna retracts, but that is is a very different handling airplane from a 172 or 182.
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I think this depends a lot on the specific model year. Earlier versions had the laminar flow wing. Later versions incorporated a change to the stabilator so that it wasn't quite as touchy on landing. After 1970 or so, the handling charateristics are not quite as divergent from the 172. But even the pre 1970 versions should have been modified under the Cardinal Rule program to address the stabiliator issues.
 
My first couple of rides in my Cardinal checkout were with an instructor who had never flown one.

Bad idea.

Maybe if the CFI has C-210 time, but really, the Cardinal is a great bird but it has quirks in systems and handling that are unique enough to make it worth your while to seek out a Cardinal experienced CFI.
 
I'm confused about what's so difficult about a Cardinal. So it floats a little, ooooooooh, so difficult. Yes, I've instructed a student from 0 to private in one.
 
What would y'all do climbing into a single seat airplane the first time?
 
Henning said:
What would y'all do climbing into a single seat airplane the first time?
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You mean there isn't a Cardinal Type Rating?


Are stick and rudder skills not taught, and people just memorize airspeed numbers and views out the window at the appropriate attitude?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Based on what I learned at Guy Maher's Cardinal Flight clinic, the C177RG is different enough from the other Cessna retracts that working with a CFI with lots of hours in type is a good idea.

If the OP was to post his request on the CFO mail forum, he would get some good responses.
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I am a member of CFO, but didn't realize they have a mail forum. How do I access it. Can't find any info on their site or google.

This checkout is for insurance. They require the check out to be in make and model.
 
Honestly, there is some difference in handling and sight picture in a Cardinal RG compared to, say a 172RG. It is NOT a big difference. I managed to grease my very first ever landing in one, on a 2300 foot runway. If anything, it's easier to land than a 172 or 182. The W&B is screwy (you'll need a lot of ballast with just you and an instructor -- I needed 90 lb in rear cargo), but that's in the POH. The sight picture is enough that it's easy to over-rotate (it looks like it's barely climbing, when in fact it's fine), but all that means is that your first flight shouldn't be pushing performance limits, which is true in any airplane.

They don't float any more than a 172 provided you use the correct approach speed. You'll be WAY under max gross with just you and an instructor, so calculate accordingly. Or just measure the dirty stall speed at altitude.

The one caveat is that combining over-rotation with a no-flap takeoff means a lot of runway. They really like 10 deg flaps on every takeoff. But that's only slightly worse than a 182.
 
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EdFred said:
I'm confused about what's so difficult about a Cardinal. So it floats a little, ooooooooh, so difficult. Yes, I've instructed a student from 0 to private in one.
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I agree with you, for the most part, although I don't know that I would say that it floats more than a 172, for comparison. The biggest issue is that when it does float, unlike 172, you can't just push the nose down to correct it. If you do, the stabilator can really cause the nose to come down more quickly than you want, resulting in a hard nose wheel first landing with resulting porpoising. You have to be a little more subtle-- push down only slightly, if at all, but mostly just hold the attitude constant as the speed bleeds off, and control the descent with the addition of a little power if it is going to drop out on you and you are too high.
 
I'm in Lincoln, NE which isn't too far away and would be willing to travel there. I wouldn't say I'm a one hundred percent expert on them but I have ferried them and we could certainly work through things and get you proficient in it.
 
PPC1052 said:
I agree with you, for the most part, although I don't know that I would say that it floats more than a 172, for comparison. The biggest issue is that when it does float, unlike 172, you can't just push the nose down to correct it. If you do, the stabilator can really cause the nose to come down more quickly than you want, resulting in a hard nose wheel first landing with resulting porpoising. You have to be a little more subtle-- push down only slightly, if at all, but mostly just hold the attitude constant as the speed bleeds off, and control the descent with the addition of a little power if it is going to drop out on you and you are too high.
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I never have my students do that, unless they've ballooned, but unless I'm taking over at that point, we go around. It's always maintain attitude and bleed off the speed, never force it. The Cardinal, unlike the 152, 172 and PA28 trainers, has a lot less of a target speed window for approach and landing than the others I mentioned. You can be over a few knots on those, but not the Cardinal - which is what I meant by the float. It doesn't float when you hit your speed, but how many students hit their speed consistently?
 
EdFred said:
I never have my students do that, unless they've ballooned, but unless I'm taking over at that point, we go around.
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Yeah, I am not saying that it's (pusing forward on the yoke) a good idea. I'm just saying that you don't get punished for it in a 172 the way you do with a 177.
 
Cessna150C said:
I am a member of CFO, but didn't realize they have a mail forum. How do I access it. Can't find any info on their site or google.

This checkout is for insurance. They require the check out to be in make and model.
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There is a guy on CFO actually one of the guys that runs the site, Keith Peterson. Keith is not a CFI but when I was looking for at a 177RG the insurance company said "oh a check out with Keith Peterson is just fine for us" The guy has a huge rep in the Cardinal world and owns an RG. He is located in Illinois south west of Chicago so I'm not srue if that distance would be worth it for you. You can contact him through CFO.
 
EdFred said:
The Cardinal, unlike the 152, 172 and PA28 trainers, has a lot less of a target speed window for approach and landing than the others I mentioned. You can be over a few knots on those, but not the Cardinal - which is what I meant by the float. It doesn't float when you hit your speed, but how many students hit their speed consistently?
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Book approach speed in my '76 FG with 30 degrees of flaps is 60 to 70. I learned in a Diamond DA-20 which really floats if you don't hit your airspeeds, so it was never much of an issue for me stepping into the Cardinal.
 
AdamZ said:
There is a guy on CFO actually one of the guys that runs the site, Keith Peterson. Keith is not a CFI but when I was looking for at a 177RG the insurance company said "oh a check out with Keith Peterson is just fine for us" The guy has a huge rep in the Cardinal world and owns an RG. He is located in Illinois south west of Chicago so I'm not srue if that distance would be worth it for you. You can contact him through CFO.
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I hired Keith to come down and check out my Cardinal before I bought it. Well worth the money. I don't recall how much I spent for his examination and advice. He will fly to you which is included in his hourly rate. I want to say it was around $1000 plus lunch (he was very clear about wanting lunch :)) for travel, plus half a day of his time to look over the plane. I did not, however, hire him to check me out for the insurance underwriting requirements.
 
It's a free market and there are plenty of CFIs out there, so there should be no problem with the OP finding an instructor with Cardinal time.
 
MAKG1 said:
Honestly, there is some difference in handling and sight picture in a Cardinal RG compared to, say a 172RG. It is NOT a big difference.
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I agree with you...I'd just say that if I was getting checked out in one, I'd want a CFI who has at least flown one before. Otherwise, what is the point of having to do a checkout?
 
Fearless Tower said:
I agree with you...I'd just say that if I was getting checked out in one, I'd want a CFI who has at least flown one before. Otherwise, what is the point of having to do a checkout?
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Since the first time I checked myself out in a Cessna 188C, I've asked the same question. Probably it's because most people don't understand the protocol for checking yourself out in a plane, and they're too lazy to actually read through the manual and go through a test regime.
 
IF people do a proper W&b on a 177rg, their first few landings aren't much if an event. It can easily forward cg with 2 people up front and fuel.

I am in KC with 50-100 recent hours. Other than the different landing picture and properly reviewing the manual, it shouldn't be much of an issue. Of course, these should be done in every new plane.

It is not tolerate of bad landings and PIO, at least not as tolerant as a 172.
 
I'm sure there are CFIs who can step into a Cardinal and check someone else out in it after a quick solo run, but there are also some who can't. All I'm saying is, if it was my airplane, I would not turn it over to a Cardinal-naive CFI like the one who nearby grabbed the yoke from me in my plane on landing because the sight picture looked wrong to him. The sight picture IS different and it is easy to over-rotate on landing. It is also more sensitive than most Cessnas to airspeed, and in the case of my specific airplane, you can sink like a rock or float halfway down the runway, if you're off your target airspeed by only a few knots on either side.
 
Cessna150C said:
I am a member of CFO, but didn't realize they have a mail forum. How do I access it. Can't find any info on their site or google.

This checkout is for insurance. They require the check out to be in make and model.
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It's their digest they use in place of a forum. I think Keith is the admin for it.

Also, check the Members Helping Members section of the site. Could be a good group of Cardinal owners are in your area and can point out the right CFI for you.
 
If you need any pointers give me a call. When you get the bird back we could go over it in more detail. I've spent hundreds of hours in those... and will be flying one the next two days.

Ryan
 
azure said:
I'm sure there are CFIs who can step into a Cardinal and check someone else out in it after a quick solo run, but there are also some who can't.
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No argument there. There are a few of them around, it shouldn't be too hard to find someone local with experience.
 
It's not like a Cardinal is an F-16, but it is more demanding than an Archer or Skyhawk.

Sure, if you can fly a 172, you can fly a 177 with no dual at all and probably do fine.

But if you're going to pay someone to teach you, your money will be better spent if your CFI at least knows where the tiedown rings are.
 
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