Necessity of clearance into Class B

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Maulrus

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Maulrus
Hi! I'm a student pilot flying out of New Orleans Lakefront (KNEW). Generally we fly a practice area east of the airport, which is partially under the outer layer of New Orleans Class B (though most of the flying is done beyond the 20 NM boundary). Every time we go out to the practice area with flight following, we get cleared into the Bravo airspace. However, we rarely fly higher than 3500 in the practice area, and the floor of the airspace is 4000. Assuming we never went above 4000, is it necessary to get cleared into the Class B? Flying VFR, do I even need to talk to New Orleans Departure?

I know this is a basic question, but it falls under the broad category of communications/airspace stuff that is still hazy to me. Thanks in advance for any help!
 
No, but you might as well accept the clearance should you inadvertantly bust it while doing airwork. Which, is probably why they gave you the clearance in the first place.
 
Sac Arrow said:
No, but you might as well accept the clearance should you inadvertantly bust it while doing airwork. Which, is probably why they gave you the clearance in the first place.
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Okay, that makes sense. But I could, if I felt so inclined, go up there and buzz around underneath that airspace without saying a word to Departure, right (not that I'm planning to do so, of course)?
 
No, you don't. They made a cutout in KMSY's Class B for KNEW.
http://skyvector.com/?ll=30.042159615023188,-89.98654622744208&chart=118&zoom=3

(Okay, beat to the punch). And yes, you can fly around in the area with a 4000' base all you want as long as they don't think you went above 3999'. I'm based underneath O'Hare's Class B (3,600' shelf) and never get a VFR clearance into their airspace and only occasionally talk to them.
 
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Maulrus said:
Hi! I'm a student pilot flying out of New Orleans Lakefront (KNEW). Generally we fly a practice area east of the airport, which is partially under the outer layer of New Orleans Class B (though most of the flying is done beyond the 20 NM boundary). Every time we go out to the practice area with flight following, we get cleared into the Bravo airspace. However, we rarely fly higher than 3500 in the practice area, and the floor of the airspace is 4000. Assuming we never went above 4000, is it necessary to get cleared into the Class B? Flying VFR, do I even need to talk to New Orleans Departure?

I know this is a basic question, but it falls under the broad category of communications/airspace stuff that is still hazy to me. Thanks in advance for any help!
Click to expand...

Welcome to Poa!!

Technically No and No. Since I don't know you're airspace though it might be something that they like there.

Does your CFI have you using Flight Following?

What usually happens after you takeoff?

Others will be along soon with better answers. :D
 
Maulrus said:
Okay, that makes sense. But I could, if I felt so inclined, go up there and buzz around underneath that airspace without saying a word to Departure, right (not that I'm planning to do so, of course)?
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All day long. If you stay out of class B, there is no need to talk to them.

Entering class B requires permission. I wouldn't assume that because you were cleared into B on the way out, that it would be OK to go into B on the way back.
 
Remember that, if you're solo, you are unable to accept the bravo clearance without an endorsement.
 
The OP's question made me take a look at online sectional to see how similar KADS is.

That caused another question about the symbology showing the height of the class "D" for KADS, which is the dashed box with "-30". I know 30 represents 3000 feet MSL, but the minus sign is....? up to 2999 since the Bravo shelf is 30|110 in that same space?
 
AggieMike88 said:
The OP's question made me take a look at online sectional to see how similar KADS is.

That caused another question about the symbology showing the height of the class "D" for KADS, which is the dashed box with "-30". I know 30 represents 3000 feet MSL, but the minus sign is....? up to 2999 since the Bravo shelf is 30|110 in that same space?
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Yup. Pretty common to have D airspaces like that under a Bravo shelf.
 
AggieMike88 said:
The OP's question made me take a look at online sectional to see how similar KADS is.

That caused another question about the symbology showing the height of the class "D" for KADS, which is the dashed box with "-30". I know 30 represents 3000 feet MSL, but the minus sign is....? up to 2999 since the Bravo shelf is 30|110 in that same space?
Click to expand...

Yes. Wait until they finally force through the Bravo expansion they've been trying to get. Even less space for traffic so they can bring South landing Love arrivals in lower.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Yes. Wait until they finally force through the Bravo expansion they've been trying to get. Even less space for traffic so they can bring South landing Love arrivals in lower.
Click to expand...

First I've heard of the expansion plans... any links for additional info?
 
Maulrus said:
Assuming we never went above 4000, is it necessary to get cleared into the Class B?
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Technically no, but there are two problems with that:

1. You may screw up. How well can you hold altitude while fumbling with a TAC and an AF/D, calculating a diversion (for instance)?

2. Your altimeter had better be RIGHT. IFR altimeters need to be accurate to 75 feet. If the aircraft isn't IFR equipped, it might be worse. There are also temperature and pressure altimeter errors, even if you're set to the nearest airport setting (the errors are zero on the ground at the station that provided the measurement; they aren't at altitude).

Your 500 foot margins are probably adequate if you stick to them.

Be thankful that you're being offered the clearance. It's really helpful. I never had such consideration when I was learning....
 
I can see the reasoning behind the request. But I agree with you as well. And seeing what is proposed around DTO, that can also cause some conflict with all of the student activity happening here at USAG.
 
It is kinda weird to get a Bravo clearance without requesting one... seeing as how you'd only be flying in D and E airspace, it's certainly not necessary.
I have no idea why they'd do that for you, although the "just in case" theory seems pretty logical.
What does your instructor think? :confused:
 
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You can be underneath without a clearance, but remember the controller can put someone right above you. Someone big and fast. ;)
 
rottydaddy said:
It is kinda weird to get a Bravo clearance without requesting one... I have no idea why they'd do that for you, although the "just in case" theory seems pretty logical.
What does your instructor think? :confused:
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The first time I got a Bravo clearance without asking was on a night training flight. Leaving Greenville Majors to go back to Denton, we were nearly at McKinney's (KTKI) Delta Space when the controller instructs me to climb into the Bravo and provides the clearance.

Took me a sec to process that I did hear what I thought I heard, but still asked for reconfirmation.

Fortunately, it was a slower night and the controller was very friendly. "Yes, I need you to climb to 4500 and you're cleared into the Bravo. I have some inbound IFR traffic into McKinney and Adisson and wanted to get you above them. Besides, it's a clear night and you will have a better view of D/FW from up there."

And he was right.
 
I get cleared into bravo quite a bit. Usually I ask and get it if they can accommodate. Sometimes I just assume it ain't gonna happen (like VFR around JFK) when they surprise me and clear me into the Bravo direst White Plains(HPN).

It all just has to do with which arrivals and departure corridors they have active and how busy they are.
 
rottydaddy said:
It is kinda weird to get a Bravo clearance without requesting one...
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Not really. It depends entirely on the Bravo and where you are relative to airline traffic.
 
Looking at the Class B, interesting corridor through it, just what altitudes can you go through and not talk to anyone? SFCB100 and 20B70 skyvector does not give you the text in the rules or the flip side of the TAC.
 
VGT, our Class D tucked in under the Class B will not issue the Cleared into class B clearance. They will get you a squawk and a frequency and a suggested heading to remain clear. You have to call Appch and get radar ID'd before you can get cleared.

The Class D is [-45] and the Class B overhead is 45B90.
The Class D is only 2500AGL.
 
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Captain said:
I get cleared into bravo quite a bit. Usually I ask and get it if they can accommodate. Sometimes I just assume it ain't gonna happen (like VFR around JFK) when they surprise me and clear me into the Bravo direst White Plains(HPN).

It all just has to do with which arrivals and departure corridors they have active and how busy they are.
Click to expand...
I started laughing when I read that because I expected the next sentence to say something about flying a heavy. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
GeorgeC said:
Remember that, if you're solo, you are unable to accept the bravo clearance without an endorsement.
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Yeah, no worries there, I have that endorsement.

Anyway, thanks for all the answers everybody! Really cleared up my confusion. :D
 
Generally, the better you are on the radio, not fumbling or sounding insecure, the more often the controllers will feel like you know what you're doing and be okay with putting their job on the line with "Cleared in the Class Bravo"...

Remember, if you sound like you're going to screwup, they must keep you separated from the other traffic in there or they get pulled off the scope, the tapes get pulled, and they get to rack up a "deal" on their record.

Some Bravos just can't deal with you effectively. Vegas is notorious for it, but I've had Bravo clearances there. The problem in Vegas is lack of space inside the valley to set up a pattern for all the inbounds that keeps us little guys out of the way. They get nervous. They have to put airliners on collision courses with you at similar altitudes and then issue the correct vectors to turn them in. One timing glitch and it all goes down the tubes for them.

I've also heard that generally Chicago is a PITA but haven't experienced it personally yet. I can see why -- with the retarded levels of traffic United crams into O'Hare at bank time. In any weather, their push and everyone deviating around the weather is unreal.

Everywhere else, never had a problem. Just think about what you're going to say and speak clearly. It's really rare to get "Remain clear of the Bravo" forever. You'll still usually get a discrete squawk and they'll eventually be able to see your on-course desired path and work you into their flow somehow. The big hint that they really need you to go away is when they reiterate "Squawk VFR" in that same breath. That's the equivalent of Foghorn Leghorn's, "Go away kid, ya bother me!" line to the Chicken Hawk. ;)

If they can, controllers will generally work with you. Just don't be off wandering around on headings or altitudes. It can make both your days go really badly. I never took it personally if they couldn't. That just meant that there was way too much high speed aluminum tubing wandering around over that direction and I probably didn't want to be over there anyway. A quick "thanks for your help" courtesy as you're leaving certainly never hurts either.
 
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