Near miss at CLT

AdamZ said:
Steven I interpret it to mean that I am in a position to take off and I am. Apply throttle along with slight right or left rudder and I'm on my way down the runway on runway heading. I'm not gumming up the controllers sequencing or delaying other traffic one bit.
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Yes, you already said that. I'm not asking about your technique, I'm asking why you believe the words "in takeoff position" appear in the definition of "POSITION AND HOLD". If they do not refer to the orientation of the aircraft what do they refer to?
 
roncachamp said:
Yes, you already said that. I'm not asking about your technique, I'm asking why you believe the words "in takeoff position" appear in the definition of "POSITION AND HOLD". If they do not refer to the orientation of the aircraft what do they refer to?
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I'm wondering why you feel it must mean "the orientation of the aircraft"? It doesn't say anything about the aircraft; it says "in takeoff position". My "position" on the runway is my location, not my orientation. I'm no longer behind the hold short line, I'm "on the numbers" of the assigned runway, ready to go.
 
roncachamp said:
No, she should have used the callsign of the aircraft that was behind JIA390 instead of the Pilatus' callsign when she said; "N409DR, Charlotte Tower, 18L position and hold, traffic landing Runway 23."

Why? Don't you think Blue Streak 390 was clearly visible to the aircraft that was directly behind it in sequence?

I am sorry to be such a frequent irritant.
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Not an frequent irritant sir... To me you are free entertainment.:rofl:
 
roncachamp said:
... I'm asking why you believe the words "in takeoff position" appear in the definition of "POSITION AND HOLD". If they do not refer to the orientation of the aircraft what do they refer to?
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Because in the plane I fly I don't have to be exactly facing runway heading to be ready and prepared to take off. Take it to an extreme. Lets say I'm flying a spiffy Bell Jet Ranger I don't have to be facing runway heading to be able to take off. Yes yes I konw a Jet Ranger is not a PA28 but the premise is the same.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I'm wondering why you feel it must mean "the orientation of the aircraft"? It doesn't say anything about the aircraft; it says "in takeoff position". My "position" on the runway is my location, not my orientation. I'm no longer behind the hold short line, I'm "on the numbers" of the assigned runway, ready to go.
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When the wind in blowing right and I am cleared for take off I will depart across the runway... It is my runway to do what I want with it.

Tower guys get a big kick out of it and any waiting 57 / 37/ 319 crew can't believe what they saw.:yikes::yikes::yikes:

Thank god for excess horsepower.:yesnod::yesnod:
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I'm wondering why you feel it must mean "the orientation of the aircraft"? It doesn't say anything about the aircraft; it says "in takeoff position". My "position" on the runway is my location, not my orientation. I'm no longer behind the hold short line, I'm "on the numbers" of the assigned runway, ready to go.
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Because if it doesn't refer to the orientation of the aircraft it doesn't refer to anything. As you explain it, "position and hold " means "taxi onto the departure runway and hold". But the book definition is "taxi onto the departure runway in takeoff position and hold." Why do you believe those three words were included?
 
AdamZ said:
Because in the plane I fly I don't have to be exactly facing runway heading to be ready and prepared to take off. Take it to an extreme. Lets say I'm flying a spiffy Bell Jet Ranger I don't have to be facing runway heading to be able to take off. Yes yes I konw a Jet Ranger is not a PA28 but the premise is the same.
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Right. The words "in takeoff position" were included in the definition of "POSITION AND HOLD" because in the plane you fly you don't have to be exactly facing runway heading to be ready and prepared to take off. Got it. Thanks.
 
roncachamp said:
Very probably. Field elevation is 748 feet and the control tower rises to 910 feet, the intersection of runway 18L and taxiway A looks to be about 4000 feet from the tower.



If they could would they recognize what it is? These types of alarms are usually only on a speaker, and that's how it sounds in the recording.
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You're probably right about the alarm, but it might be useful to have it on the freq as well. Knowing what it means would just be one more small thing for pilots to learn about towered airport ops. Had the Pilatus pilot heard it,and knew what it was, he might have done what I suggested, kept rolling on the taxiway line to get the hell out of the way.

Maybe it would be too disruptive or confusing, but then again, it might help when pilots and/or controllers are not tracking the Big Picture adequately.
 
I would think tower would only be concerned about spacing. That is, if you can depart very quickly after tower so instructs. How you do it (within reason) should be up to the PIC. I know a lot of folks that both teach and fly with a slight angle to be able to see behind. Don't know how effective that would be on a departure only runway, but I do leave a slight angle to see back or remind tower I'm there if it takes awhile. Since some trubos must spool up and some align and set the DG and departure time, I would think tower would allow a few seconds, but they sure don't want someone to dilly dally.

As to hearing warnings over the radio, P L E A S E don't do that to me. I have so many warnings and synthetic voices in the cockpit now, I have a difficult time determining from where they are all coming. I just ignore some.

Best,

Dave
 
Data point: I have gotten chewed at by tower for not lining up directionally with the runway, when given a P&H....Austin 17L I think, over 2 years ago. I lined up at about a 40degree angle so I could view the approach out my side window and tower said something like, "can you get lined up with the runway?"

If I was feeling snarky I suppose I could have come back, 'sure, if you can guarantee no USAir1493'. As it was we had tcas but it can be hard to assess time to impact with it.
 
rottydaddy said:
You're probably right about the alarm, but it might be useful to have it on the freq as well. Knowing what it means would just be one more small thing for pilots to learn about towered airport ops. Had the Pilatus pilot heard it,and knew what it was, he might have done what I suggested, kept rolling on the taxiway line to get the hell out of the way.

Maybe it would be too disruptive or confusing, but then again, it might help when pilots and/or controllers are not tracking the Big Picture adequately.
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The Pilatus pilot was told the reason takeoff clearance could not be issued immediately, the reason he was holding in position on runway 18L. It was for traffic landing on runway 23, which intersects runway 18L behind him. If he couldn't get the Big Picture from that, I don't see him getting it from hearing the ASDE-X alarm, especially when he cannot see the ASDE-X display.
 
scottd said:
That's the way that I'd interpret this as well. I wouldn't be pointed in the opposite direction of course, but I don't see anything that tells me I have to be completely "lined up" with the centerline on the runway.
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If you wish to see the approach area while on the runway you're going to have to turn towards the opposite direction in many GA airplanes.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I would think tower would only be concerned about spacing. That is, if you can depart very quickly after tower so instructs. How you do it (within reason) should be up to the PIC. I know a lot of folks that both teach and fly with a slight angle to be able to see behind. Don't know how effective that would be on a departure only runway, but I do leave a slight angle to see back or remind tower I'm there if it takes awhile. Since some trubos must spool up and some align and set the DG and departure time, I would think tower would allow a few seconds, but they sure don't want someone to dilly dally.
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How much time is there between "a few seconds" and a "dilly dally"?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Data point: I have gotten chewed at by tower for not lining up directionally with the runway, when given a P&H....Austin 17L I think, over 2 years ago. I lined up at about a 40degree angle so I could view the approach out my side window and tower said something like, "can you get lined up with the runway?"

If I was feeling snarky I suppose I could have come back, 'sure, if you can guarantee no USAir1493'. As it was we had tcas but it can be hard to assess time to impact with it.
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In 1991 it was permitted to issue a landing clearance when aircraft were holding in position. I never liked that, never did it. It took the FAA some time to come around, the procedure was changed a few years ago.

See FAAO 7110.65 para 3-9-4.c.
 
roncachamp said:
How much time is there between "a few seconds" and a "dilly dally"?
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Well.....let's see if I can shed some light on that.
It would be in just Moment.
Or Right-away.
Immediately.
As quick as Jack Robinson.
Before you know it, but that would be tough 'cause you'd have to know it to do it, wouldn't ya?
In a Jiffy or a flash. How many flashes in a jiffy anyway?
2 Shakes of a lamb's tail?
Sooner than you think, but you're pretty fast.
It would be before 'one of these days'.
Or before long.
Or anytime now.
Or sooner than later.
Or in just a little while.
Or in a short time.
Or til Kingdome comes.
Or til the cows come home.

Any help? Perhaps George Carlin could assist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M5eG-aywZQ

Best,

Dave
 
roncachamp said:
The Pilatus pilot was told the reason takeoff clearance could not be issued immediately, the reason he was holding in position on runway 18L. It was for traffic landing on runway 23, which intersects runway 18L behind him. If he couldn't get the Big Picture from that, I don't see him getting it from hearing the ASDE-X alarm, especially when he cannot see the ASDE-X display.
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I'm with you on that one. My initial reaction to the part in the simulation where the alarm was issued followed by some incoherency by the controller was that the pilots could have reacted sooner had they been privy to the alert the instant it occurred. But after trying to put myself in the place of the Pilatus (if only I had one:frown3:) pilot, I concluded that unless that alert came in the form of a loud voice screaming "get that Pilatus off the runway NOW" I'd probably just sit there wondering what to do about the alert and whether it actually involved me in any way. Also after reading the NTSB report it's clear that the RJ pilot began to abort their takeoff long before the ASDE alert occurred in the tower and as soon as they realized the Pilatus was entering the runway.

Rather than broadcast the alert directly to the pilots a better approach would be some animated system that could recognize the mistake when it occurred, i.e when the controller issued the TP&H clearance to the Pilatus.
 
roncachamp said:
If you wish to see the approach area while on the runway you're going to have to turn towards the opposite direction in many GA airplanes.
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How many GA (piston) airplanes have no visibility at 90 degrees to the side? You might have to move your head off the headrest to see around the right seat passenger but all the airplanes I've flown provide some ability to see out the side. And in any case, I stand by my earlier statement that an airplane turned 45 degrees to the runway heading is more visible to arriving traffic (and possibly the tower) than one on and aligned with the centerline.

BTW, one thing I haven't seen discussed here is the fact that the LC probably wasn't looking at where she thought the Pilatus was located when she gave that improper instruction. Are there any rules about this? Do you normally confirm an aircraft's location visually?
 
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roncachamp said:
As you interpret it the words "in takeoff position" have no meaning. So why are they included?
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If I were called upon to interpret the legal requirements of that phrase, absent specific definition elsewhere (or even use elsewhere indicating otherwise), I would define it to mean "the aircraft is readily capable of takeoff."

Obviously, that's something of a flexible standard. A light aircraft at a 60 degree angle is readily capable because all it takes is a slight effort and perhaps a few seconds to be lined up and on your way. With a heavier aircraft, not so - the effort required is increased, as is the time involved, meaning that there is no ready capability.

The basic rule in statutory/rule interpretation is that you try to effectuate intent. I'd say that it's indisputable that the intent behind this rule is to allow for quick and efficient, but safe, departures. A light aircraft at a 60-degree angle effectuates all three of those - it imposes no burden on quickness/efficiency, while considerably increasing the margin of safety by allowing the pilot to look down the runway in both directions.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Well.....let's see if I can shed some light on that.
It would be in just Moment.
Or Right-away.
Immediately.
As quick as Jack Robinson.
Before you know it, but that would be tough 'cause you'd have to know it to do it, wouldn't ya?
In a Jiffy or a flash. How many flashes in a jiffy anyway?
2 Shakes of a lamb's tail?
Sooner than you think, but you're pretty fast.
It would be before 'one of these days'.
Or before long.
Or anytime now.
Or sooner than later.
Or in just a little while.
Or in a short time.
Or til Kingdome comes.
Or til the cows come home.

Any help? Perhaps George Carlin could assist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M5eG-aywZQ
Click to expand...

Fascinating. The length of time that an aircraft should be expected to stop on a runway before commencing takeoff roll, after receiving a takeoff clearance while on the taxiway, was the subject of a lengthy discussion in rec.aviation.piloting about twelve years ago. As I recall it was as long as thirty or sixty seconds.
 
gismo said:
How many GA (piston) airplanes have no visibility at 90 degrees to the side? You might have to move your head off the headrest to see around the right seat passenger but all the airplanes I've flown provide some ability to see out the side.
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Quite a few, in most Brand C piston airplanes a wing would be blocking the view of approaching aircraft.

BTW, one thing I haven't seen discussed here is the fact that the LC probably wasn't looking at where she thought the Pilatus was located when she gave that improper instruction. Are there any rules about this? Do you normally confirm an aircraft's location visually?
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I think she probably was looking at where she thought the Pilatus was located when she gave that position and hold instruction. I think she thought it was at the end of runway 18L.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
If I were called upon to interpret the legal requirements of that phrase, absent specific definition elsewhere (or even use elsewhere indicating otherwise), I would define it to mean "the aircraft is readily capable of takeoff."
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In that sense, how do the statements below differ?


"Taxi onto the departure runway in takeoff position and hold."

"Taxi onto the departure runway and hold."
 
roncachamp said:
Quite a few, in most Brand C piston airplanes a wing would be blocking the view of approaching aircraft.

I think she probably was looking at where she thought the Pilatus was located when she gave that position and hold instruction. I think she thought it was at the end of runway 18L.
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Darn,,, I have to agree with Steven again.:yikes:

I have visited with the guys/gals up in the cab at KJAC and they will use binocs to confirm N numbers of taxiing and aircraft waiting their turn in line for departure.
Steven, is it a ATC requirement to visually confirm the location of aircraft on the field?
 
roncachamp said:
In that sense, how do the statements below differ?


"Taxi onto the departure runway in takeoff position and hold."

"Taxi onto the departure runway and hold."
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The former would require that the plane be in a position such that takeoff would be readily accomplishable from the position held.

The latter would require merely that the plane get on the runway (unless there's something in the rules providing otherwise).
 
N801BH said:
Darn,,, I have to agree with Steven again.:yikes:
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Oh oh. I sense a trend....

Steven, is it a ATC requirement to visually confirm the location of aircraft on the field?
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Not necessarily visually, sometimes that's impossible.



FAA Order 7110.65 Air Traffic Control


3-1-7. POSITION DETERMINATION

Determine the position of an aircraft before issuing
taxi instructions or takeoff clearance.

NOTE-
The aircraft's position may be determined visually by the
controller, by pilots, or through the use of the ASDE.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
The former would require that the plane be in a position such that takeoff would be readily accomplishable from the position held.

The latter would require merely that the plane get on the runway (unless there's something in the rules providing otherwise).
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How does a position such that takeoff would be readily accomplishable from the position held differ from just getting on the runway?
 
roncachamp said:
How does a position such that takeoff would be readily accomplishable from the position held differ from just getting on the runway?
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In the first, you're necessarily in a position from which takeoff can be accomplished easily (e.g., aligned with the runway); in the other, you're just on the runway - maybe perpendicular, maybe backwards, etc.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
In the first, you're necessarily in a position from which takeoff can be accomplished easily (e.g., aligned with the runway); in the other, you're just on the runway - maybe perpendicular, maybe backwards, etc.
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So "in takeoff position" refers to the "the orientation of the aircraft", not to the location of the aircraft?
 
roncachamp said:
Quite a few, in most Brand C piston airplanes a wing would be blocking the view of approaching aircraft.
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Good point, I was inappropriately thinking only of the issue of traffic departing from behind and probably also relating to low wing airplanes as well.

I think she probably was looking at where she thought the Pilatus was located when she gave that position and hold instruction. I think she thought it was at the end of runway 18L.
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Wouldn't the difference between a Pilatus and an airliner be fairly obvious? I think there was another jet waiting there.
 
gismo said:
Wouldn't the difference between a Pilatus and an airliner be fairly obvious? I think there was another jet waiting there.
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Yes, the difference between a Pilatus and an airliner should be fairly obvious. The animation didn't indicate what type aircraft was in sequence behind Blue Streak 390, just the callsign, Air Shuttle 2681. Sounds like one of several small regional jet airliners. She didn't issue a position and hold to "Pilatus 409 Delta Romeo", she issued it to "November 409 Delta Romeo", and the Pilatus pilot didn't say the type either, just "9 Delta Romeo". Looking at a full length 18L departure from the control tower a regional jet wouldn't look much different than a bizjet and she might have believed that's what N409DR was.
 
roncachamp said:
The Pilatus pilot was told the reason takeoff clearance could not be issued immediately, the reason he was holding in position on runway 18L. It was for traffic landing on runway 23, which intersects runway 18L behind him. If he couldn't get the Big Picture from that, I don't see him getting it from hearing the ASDE-X alarm, especially when he cannot see the ASDE-X display.
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What does that have to do with the fact that he didn't pay any mind to the fact that another plane was cleared to take off on the runway onto which he'd just been cleared to take position?

Here's how I think hearing the alarm may have helped, even though everyone concerned in this incident was not paying full attention:

The Pilatus pilot enters the runway and hears the alarm. Realizing, at least (we hope), that he is taking a runway, he deduces that the hazard indicated may have something to do with him. He looks to the right, sees the jet coming at him on 18L, and gets the hell off the runway.
He responded well enough to the controller's alert, even though he was not addressed directly (the Pilatus starts moving towards the left side of the runway when the controller tells the jet to abort),so it may be reasonably assumed that he'd notice an alarm.
 
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Speaking of alarms... would they get TCAS RAs on the ground, or only once airborne?
 
rottydaddy said:
What does that have to do with the fact that he didn't pay any mind to the fact that another plane was cleared to take off on the runway onto which he'd just been cleared to take position?
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Nothing. Did he hear that clearance? Was he on the local control frequency when it was issued or read back?

See messages #9 and #25.
 
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I was issued my first position and hold last week with an RJ 4 miles out. I had NO view of the inbound in my 172 at 90* to the runway, and got into the position as soon as the controller issued it. I must admit, it made me kinda nervous. There was no other traffic behind me on the taxiway, so that was not an issue. Question: Can a PIC refuse the position and hold request and ask to wait until the arriving traffic has landed and cleared the runway?
 
DutchessFlier said:
I was issued my first position and hold last week with an RJ 4 miles out. I had NO view of the inbound in my 172 at 90* to the runway, and got into the position as soon as the controller issued it. I must admit, it made me kinda nervous. There was no other traffic behind me on the taxiway, so that was not an issue. Question: Can a PIC refuse the position and hold request and ask to wait until the arriving traffic has landed and cleared the runway?
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Affirmative.
 
As we should have learned from the Sarasota accident ten years ago (see below), what pilots need to remember is that if you're at an intersection rather than full length, and the controller doesn't say "at intersection X..." as part of the runway entry clearance (either "taxi into position and hold" or "cleared for takeoff"), something's wrong and needs to be fixed before you enter the runway. Likewise, if the controller says "at intersection X" and you're not at intersection X (i.e., you're either at a different intersection or full length), that, too, needs to be fixed before you enter the runway.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X20686&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X20686&key=2
 
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