NBC Today Show - Pilots reveal fatigue issues

believe it when i see it. this is nothing new.
 
You're right. Story always ends the same.
"Yeah, they're probably tired but we're broke. If you make us adopt these rules, we will either go out of businesss or cut service to all the small markets and your constituents will vote your sorry ass out of office. Do you understand that, Congresswoman Sludgepump?"

tonycondon said:
believe it when i see it. this is nothing new.
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oh and now, once congress requires two ATPs in every regional airliner, they will be able to claim that if they go to shorter work days they will not have enough pilots!
 
I seriously like the nap idea. It wouldn't cost anything, and it would probably help, as long as nobody accidentally keys the PA mic when someone's snoring up there...:D
 
rottydaddy said:
I seriously like the nap idea. It wouldn't cost anything, and it would probably help, as long as nobody accidentally keys the PA mic when someone's snoring up there...:D
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I like the nap idea too, but I have a hard time believing the FAA will buy off on it. Although, come to think of it, now you are allowed to leave the cockpit for physiological reasons. Couldn't napping be one of those reasons? You wouldn't even need to physically leave the cockpit, just mentally.
 
rottydaddy said:
I seriously like the nap idea. It wouldn't cost anything, and it would probably help, as long as nobody accidentally keys the PA mic when someone's snoring up there...:D
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Problem is, when you wake up, you're effectively drunk for about the first 20 minutes or so. Emergencies don't wait, and they really require two pilots - Do you want one of them to be "drunk" if there's an emergency? IMHO, pilots should be given better rest rules - For example, 10 hours from the time the hotel shuttle gets to the hotel, to the time the hotel shuttle leaves the hotel, or 11-12 hours block to block. That would allow for a full night's sleep, shower, breakfast, shuttling time, etc... Us truck drivers have it WAY better than pilots do right now.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Problem is, when you wake up, you're effectively drunk for about the first 20 minutes or so.
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Yeah. That is after deep REM sleep. Not so much after a 5 or 10 minute power nap.

IMHO, pilots should be given better rest rules - For example, 10 hours from the time the hotel shuttle gets to the hotel, to the time the hotel shuttle leaves the hotel, or 11-12 hours block to block.
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And in many cases, even that isn't enough. It is hard to wind down from a day at work "instantaneously". 10 hours at the hotel will barely get you 7 hours of sleep by the time you factor in winding down, getting something to eat, and getting ready to go out the door the next day.

That would allow for a full night's sleep, shower, breakfast, shuttling time, etc... Us truck drivers have it WAY better than pilots do right now.
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Marginally. See above.
 
Here is an interesting article on fatigue countermeasures. I heard this guy speak at Bombardier Safety Standdown a couple years ago and he mentioned this study.

article said:
A joint study by scientists with NASA and the FAA examined the effectiveness of a planned cockpit rest period to improve subsequent performance and alertness in commercial long-haul flight operations [34]. The authors of the study compared two groups of long-haul flight crewmembers flying the same sequence of four scheduled 9 hour transpacific flights. One group was allowed a 40-minute nap opportunity (one crewmember at a time) during a period of low workload while the aircraft was at cruise altitude. The other group followed the same procedures, but was instructed to continue their normal flight activities during the designated 40-minute period

Crewmembers who were allowed to nap fell asleep on 93% of the available occasions and slept for an average of 26 minutes. They also showed better performance (on a reaction time/vigilance task) and higher physiological alertness during the last 90 minutes of flight (measured by brainwaves and eye movements) than the control group crewmembers who had not napped. Planned cockpit rest is not currently sanctioned by FAA regulations, but, a proposal to allow planned cockpit rest, based on the findings in this study, is currently under review.
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As a gypsy trucker in the '70's, I could tell you some stories about log books and rest periods.

No amount of legislation can make a person fall to sleep by the clock and wake up rested by the clock. Our circadian rythm often doesn't know what time it is.

In addition there are few restrictions on what you can do. You could spend all day at hard physical labor and report to work legally fresh and ready to go, but in fact very fatiqued. Not sure how time restrictions prohibit that. In fact, the more time off a person has to have, the more likely someone is to pick up a second job or activity which will insure one is never fresh except on paper.
 
bbchien said:
Yeah. We'll require installation of a panel mounted alarm clock....

Oh. TWO ATPs. We'll require two alarm clocks, panel mounted. They can't both appear on the MEL, either.
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Stop it. The feds will see this and think it's a good idea, and then we'll pay $800 each for $8 alarm clocks and have to have them certified annually for accuracy and loudness.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
Stop it. The feds will see this and think it's a good idea, and then we'll pay $800 each for $8 alarm clocks and have to have them certified annually for accuracy and loudness.

Dan
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Don't forget when the FAA decides to make airworthiness directives on them for something really silly. Then you have to pay the repair costs to!

David
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Yeah. That is after deep REM sleep. Not so much after a 5 or 10 minute power nap.
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A 5 or 10 minute power nap doesn't really do you any good, though. 20, maybe. 45, better. Hour and a half, now you're talking worthwhile. But IMHO, allowing crews better rest so they don't need a nap in the cockpit is WAY preferable. :yes:

And in many cases, even that isn't enough. It is hard to wind down from a day at work "instantaneously". 10 hours at the hotel will barely get you 7 hours of sleep by the time you factor in winding down, getting something to eat, and getting ready to go out the door the next day.
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I know exactly what you mean, and I agree - But a nice 14-15 hour rest period will never pass. :(
 
Many years ago I was riding along on a late night check delivery run -- trying to swagger around in the pilotssss lounge like a Freight Dog poser at 3am. They were teasing one of the fellows ... thats why you turn the radio way up dude ... thats what the squelch is for.

I didn't get the joke till it was explained to me, the fellow had dosed off on his way to Indianapolis and had to be roused by air traffic control.

It was certainly a fatigue issue because at that time laptops looked like this:
 

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Greg Bockelman said:
Oh yes it does. When it takes toothpicks to keep the eyelids open, 10 minutes will get you to the rest break. :D
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I agree. When I used to regularly drive long distances at night, I could extend my "time of useful conciousness" 30-60 minutes with a 10 minute rest when I was really tired. I'm not saying this restored me to peak performance but it did allow me to continue down the freeway without fear of falling asleep or having to prop my eyes open. The only downside was the occasional incident where a passing truck would shake my parked car and leave me temporarily shocked into thinking I was still driving down the road. The adrenaline from that would bring me wide awake in seconds but after another 10 minutes I would be totally zonked.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
A 5 or 10 minute power nap doesn't really do you any good, though. 20, maybe. 45, better. Hour and a half, now you're talking worthwhile. But IMHO, allowing crews better rest so they don't need a nap in the cockpit is WAY preferable. :yes:
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IMO the problem isn't so much the insufficient time for resting between flights as it is the issue of circadian rhythms. So unless the off duty periods include 8 hours that coincide with the pilot's "normal" sleep schedule, adding time to the between flight breaks probably won't help much. Given that, I think the idea of in-flight naps is probably the best solution.
 
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