Navy Flight Officer ??

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JamesAdie

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JamesAdie
What is a Navy Flight Officer?

In my Civil Air Patrol squadron there's a couple of older guys who do the training for mission pilots and aircraft checkouts. These two have egos that overpower everyone in the room and when I've asked about their flight experience they claim thousands of hours in F-4's and A-6's during their Naval career.

During a recent gathering at the local watering hole, I overheard one of these guys say to a current Navy Reserve F-18 pilot that he was a retired Navy Flight Officer. This is a title I'm not familiar with, but from the overheard conversation, it sounds as if the older guy with the huge ego wasn't actually a pilot but the guy in back (or the right seat).

Can anyone clarify this for me? Are crew members in two-seat, military aircraft pilots or are they systems operators?

(I mean no disrespect to the non-pilot crewmembers but it seems disrespectful for someone to claim to be a Naval Aviator when they actually weren't)

Thanks,
J
 
JamesAdie said:
What is a Navy Flight Officer?

In my Civil Air Patrol squadron there's a couple of older guys who do the training for mission pilots and aircraft checkouts. These two have egos that overpower everyone in the room and when I've asked about their flight experience they claim thousands of hours in F-4's and A-6's during their Naval career.

During a recent gathering at the local watering hole, I overheard one of these guys say to a current Navy Reserve F-18 pilot that he was a retired Navy Flight Officer. This is a title I'm not familiar with, but from the overheard conversation, it sounds as if the older guy with the huge ego wasn't actually a pilot but the guy in back (or the right seat).

Can anyone clarify this for me? Are crew members in two-seat, military aircraft pilots or are they systems operators?

(I mean no disrespect to the non-pilot crewmembers but it seems disrespectful for someone to claim to be a Naval Aviator when they actually weren't)

Thanks,
J
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Your conclusion is correct, a Naval Flight Officer is a commissioned non-pilot aircrew member, although depending on the aircraft they may perform some duties commonly thought of as copilot duties.
 
Naval Flight Officers are non-pilot officers who perform duties such as Weapons Systems Operators in the two-seat fighter/attack planes. But don't forget the larger aircraft used - AntiSubmarine, AWACS, all of which have NFOs on board doing various non-flying things.
 
It is officially Naval Flight Officer, and while they are not full fledged pilots, they are generally referred to as Naval Aviators within the Navy. Better known as back seat drivers.
 
JamesAdie said:
What is a Navy Flight Officer?

These two have egos that overpower everyone in the room and when I've asked about their flight experience they claim thousands of hours in F-4's and A-6's during their Naval career.

J
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A huge ego is a prerequisite to being a Naval Flight Officer. If you don't believe you are the best, you won't be the best and only the best make the grade. And while they may not be the Pilot (the one with the BIGGEST ego) that pilot would probably die on his first mission without qualified NFOs.

Thus the old saying about walking into a room with one NFO. How can you tell who that is?
Answer: He will tell you.

Your conclusions are probably correct and the NFOs you speak of in your CAP sound like standard NFO material. And I salute them just as I do their chauffeur (the pilot).
 
JOhnH said:
A huge ego is a prerequisite to being a Naval Flight Officer. If you don't believe you are the best, you won't be the best and only the best make the grade. And while they may not be the Pilot (the one with the BIGGEST ego) that pilot would probably die on his first mission without qualified NFOs.
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Well, if that was true there wouldn't be any single-place Navy aircraft. But there are.
 
roncachamp said:
Well, if that was true there wouldn't be any single-place Navy aircraft. But there are.
Click to expand...

I thought about that before posting, but no matter how many qualifiers one puts into a statement, there will always be some anal sob that has to pick it apart.

If I said a car wouldn't go very far without gas, that pretty much assumes it is a gas powered car and not diesel or electric.

My statement assumed a plane with a mission requirement for an NFO.
 
The NFOs started out in the same track as the pilots if flight school. Somewhere along the way, they couldn't hack the rigors, or they just didn't have the stick to make it through flight school. Rather than wash them out completely, the Navy - in it's infinite wisdom keeps them in non-pilot flying roles as has been stated. Most NFOs can take control of an aircraft and get it back to the boat, and maybe, possibly get it on the deck, or more likely they will set up a bail out and ditch the hardware.

They may have thousands of 'flight' hours in the planes mentioned, but they are navigation and ordinance specialists, not pilots.
 
Thinking about it, you've got to have a bunch of respect for these guys to do their job while being yanked and banked. I agree with the ego thing, Naval Aviators tend to be the baddest dudes in the room.

Can NFO's log their flight time as it relates to FAR 61.51?

In the case of the guys I mentioned; they must have earned their certificates after retiring from the Navy and are now CFII's. Can they claim their time as NFO's as part of their total time?

Would it be possible for them to retroactively apply their NFO flight time so that as soon as they earned their ratings they could apply flight time from years earlier?
 
Love those guys, thousands of hours 'in' jet aircraft. Figures they'd graduate to CAP aircrew where their mad skilz can be properly appreciated.
 
When I graduated college I took the NFOQT. (NFO Qualification Test). I did well enough on every part, except for vision to qualify for a commission to train as a Naval Flight Officer, but I would have been restricted from being a pilot. So I guess that technically, I did wash out as a pilot, but it was even before entering the program. So I applied to the Air Force and again, because of my vision I was offered a commission to become an AF Meteorologist. They were going to send me to Texas to get a Masters degree. But at the time, I figured if I wasn't going to be a pilot, I wasn't going in. That was the biggest, dumbest mistake I ever made.


docmirror said:
The NFOs started out in the same track as the pilots if flight school. Somewhere along the way, they couldn't hack the rigors, or they just didn't have the stick to make it through flight school. Rather than wash them out completely, the Navy - in it's infinite wisdom keeps them in non-pilot flying roles as has been stated. Most NFOs can take control of an aircraft and get it back to the boat, and maybe, possibly get it on the deck, or more likely they will set up a bail out and ditch the hardware.

They may have thousands of 'flight' hours in the planes mentioned, but they are navigation and ordinance specialists, not pilots.
Click to expand...
 
JOhnH said:
But at the time, I figured if I wasn't going to be a pilot, I wasn't going in. That was the biggest, dumbest mistake I ever made.
Click to expand...

As in 'not joining the military alltogether' or declining the option of getting a masters and becoming a weatherman ?
 
JamesAdie said:
What is a Navy Flight Officer?

In my Civil Air Patrol squadron there's a couple of older guys who do the training for mission pilots and aircraft checkouts. These two have egos that overpower everyone in the room and when I've asked about their flight experience they claim thousands of hours in F-4's and A-6's during their Naval career.

During a recent gathering at the local watering hole, I overheard one of these guys say to a current Navy Reserve F-18 pilot that he was a retired Navy Flight Officer. This is a title I'm not familiar with, but from the overheard conversation, it sounds as if the older guy with the huge ego wasn't actually a pilot but the guy in back (or the right seat).

Can anyone clarify this for me? Are crew members in two-seat, military aircraft pilots or are they systems operators?

(I mean no disrespect to the non-pilot crewmembers but it seems disrespectful for someone to claim to be a Naval Aviator when they actually weren't)

Thanks,
J
Click to expand...


This all seems so familiar for some reason....
 
roncachamp said:
Like an F-4 or an F-14? Those aircraft have been replaced with single-place aircraft.
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The terms that come to mind are ECMO, RIO, CIC. The EA-6B has 1 right seater, and two in the back. the E2, has 3 in the tube, the S2 has 2 in the back.

none can fly the aircraft.

the F4 had no controls in the rear seat, nor did the RA-5C, E2, F4, or the old AD5N/Q, the A6 had nothing in the right seat, thus the back/right seaters had no flight training.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Love those guys, thousands of hours 'in' jet aircraft. Figures they'd graduate to CAP aircrew where their mad skilz can be properly appreciated.
Click to expand...

I've attended two CAP meetings both were a BS session about what we did in the military.

I figured that flying for free had its price.
 
roncachamp said:
Oh? Single-place F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s are no longer in service?
Click to expand...

Yes, but the have been augmented by 2 seat versions which have grown from them. As for new productions and acquisitions, which do we currently get more of?
 
Tom-D said:
the F4 had no controls in the rear seat,
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Most of them did. The USAF called for controls in the rear seat and the USAF was the largest user of the F-4. Of course, if the F-4 had originally been built for the USAF it wouldn't have had a rear seat.
 
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The F-14 had no stick nor throttle in the rear seat and the front seat had no control over the Phoenix Missile. Thus the RIO needed the stick actuator, aka, the pilot, to get to the place where the RIO could kill the bad guys. Both had control of the ejection sequence for both seats if required.

OTOH, it would quite common for a NFO to be a Flying Squadron Commander embarked or ashore in the USN, while a WSO in the USAF to be a Squadron Commader of a flying wing would be earthshaking and AFAIK, never happens (unless it's a drone squadron).

Cheers
 
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X3 Skier said:
The F-14 had no stick nor throttle in the rear seat and the front seat had no control over the Phoenix Missile. Thus the RIO needed the stick actuator, aka, the pilot, to get to the place where the RIO could kill the bad guys. Both had control of the ejection sequence for both seats if required.
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What was the combat record of the Phoenix Missile in USN service?
 
roncachamp said:
What was the combat record of the Phoenix Missile in USN service?
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What is the weight of an elephant? Equally relevant question. Or perhaps what is the combat record of the Minuteman Missile if you prefer.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
What is the weight of an elephant? Equally relevant question. Or perhaps what is the combat record of the Minuteman Missile if you prefer.

Cheers
Click to expand...
It's like asking what the combat record of HMS WARRIOR was.
 
NFO= Non-Functioning Obstacle.
Not Fully Operational
Non-Functioning Orifice
Non Flying Obstacle
and many many more that should not be posted here..... :nono:
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but where does the ego come from?

I have thousands of hours sitting on a Boeing, doesn't mean I know how to fly one.
 
JamesAdie said:
Thinking about it, you've got to have a bunch of respect for these guys to do their job while being yanked and banked. I agree with the ego thing, Naval Aviators tend to be the baddest dudes in the room.

Can NFO's log their flight time as it relates to FAR 61.51?

In the case of the guys I mentioned; they must have earned their certificates after retiring from the Navy and are now CFII's. Can they claim their time as NFO's as part of their total time?

Would it be possible for them to retroactively apply their NFO flight time so that as soon as they earned their ratings they could apply flight time from years earlier?
Click to expand...

Their NFO seat time is not "rated stick shaker" time, it counts for nothing in the civilian world to be applied toward civil ratings.

It does add to their aviation experience to add to their skills in regards to ACM (management) and aeronautical decision making.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Maybe I'm missing something, but where does the ego come from?
Click to expand...

It comes from wearing brown shoes, a leather jacket and calling oneself a naval aviator.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
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Threefingeredjack said:
NFO= Non-Functioning Obstacle.
Not Fully Operational
Non-Functioning Orifice
Non Flying Obstacle
and many many more that should not be posted here..... :nono:
Click to expand...

You forgot the best one...'No Future Opportunities'


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
RotorAndWing said:
The "ego" comes from the person who regales you with their stories but conveniently leaves out certain details so you are assuming they are what they really aren't. :rolleyes:
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Funniest thing about NFOs, is the carriers are full of them. I know a few pilots who are ships company on CVNs and they are constantly ragging on the NFOs standing bridge an CDC watches. They love bossing folks around because it is the only time they are actually in control. They are so used to having to ride around in the back.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
docmirror said:
The NFOs started out in the same track as the pilots if flight school. Somewhere along the way, they couldn't hack the rigors, or they just didn't have the stick to make it through flight school. Rather than wash them out completely, the Navy - in it's infinite wisdom keeps them in non-pilot flying roles as has been stated.
Click to expand...
Completely untrue. In fact, it takes a special board to approve a washed-out pilot for retraining as an NFO -- and most don't get it. The only thing stopping most NFO's from becoming pilots was the 20/20 vision requirement.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Funniest thing about NFOs, is the carriers are full of them. I know a few pilots who are ships company on CVNs and they are constantly ragging on the NFOs standing bridge an CDC watches. They love bossing folks around because it is the only time they are actually in control. They are so used to having to ride around in the back.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...

Yup.

When I was in VP-46 back at Moffett we had an NFO get promoted to CO. A little man with a chip on his shoulder.......:nonod::rolleyes2:
 
Ron Levy said:
Completely untrue. In fact, it takes a special board to approve a washed-out pilot for retraining as an NFO -- and most don't get it. The only thing stopping most NFO's from becoming pilots was the 20/20 vision requirement.
Click to expand...

Correct, but don't all NFOs get some actual stick time during their pipeline, or I that just the jet guys?

At my last command, I worked for an S-3 NFO who got to log some time in TA-4Js during his initial training.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Fearless Tower said:
Correct, but don't all NFOs get some actual stick time during their pipeline,
Click to expand...
They did when I went through, in T-34's, T-39's, and TF-9's.

At my last command, I worked for an S-3 NFO who got to log some time in TA-4Js during his initial training.
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They replaced the TF-9's with TA-4's back in the 70's, so yes, that would be likely. In addition, many S-3 NFO's were designated as "CO-TAC's" and replaced pilots in the right front seat. They got a lot of stick time which was FAA-loggable if they had a pilot certificate with AMEL rating.
 
Ron Levy said:
Completely untrue. In fact, it takes a special board to approve a washed-out pilot for retraining as an NFO -- and most don't get it. The only thing stopping most NFO's from becoming pilots was the 20/20 vision requirement.
Click to expand...

That's what I faced. I wore glasses, never given the opportunity for pilot training. Signed on the be an AF Navigator from day one, Stratigic Air Command.

Remember, in some heavy aircraft, the pilots are bus drivers. Although they carry the mantel of command, it's the AF Navigator that is responsible for weapon security, directing the pilot to the target area, delivering the weapons on target, directs the air refueling rendezvous, and then providing headings to get the pilot back to home base.

Master Navigator, USAF (Ret), all before the days of GPS
B-52G, 1000 hrs, Radar Navigation, Celestial, Pressure Pattern Navigation
B-1B, 1500 hrs, Radar Navigation, INS assist with radar fix point updates
 
Fearless Tower said:
Correct, but don't all NFOs get some actual stick time during their pipeline, or I that just the jet guys?

At my last command, I worked for an S-3 NFO who got to log some time in TA-4Js during his initial training.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...

About 10 hrs of T-37 time, high alt navigation, intro to acro.
 
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