Navy Base Shooting (Norfolk)

I feel someone at the base entrance dropped the ball. Media stated officials say he should not have been allowed on base at that time without the proper reason.

The article advised the petty officer of the watch was disarmed. Where does the officer of the watch stand? Is it on the ship? Is it on the pier? I wonder where was the initial contact made with the officer of the watch. I hear there is another checkpoint you must go through to get onto the pier. So, how many checkpoints total are there that one must pass to get to the Mahan?

Someone with knowledge (Fearless) care to comment?
 
I wonder how he got on base with out an official reason. Anytime I go onto the local Air Force base I have to have a valid reason and escort. I mean the reason could be as simple as I'm helping my grandparents grocery shop, but you still need a reason.

I guess a 100% security check and vehicle check will be the only way to keep this from happening again via this source.
 
He had a contractor badge/card.

contractors have free roaming of the base.

I was one from 1981-1995 and a federal worker from 1995-2007. our cards would allow us to come and go as we pleased.
 
Tom-D said:
He had a contractor badge/card.

contractors have free roaming of the base.

I was one from 1981-1995 and a federal worker from 1995-2007. our cards would allow us to come and go as we pleased.
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True. But the media says the officials say even with that, he had no reason to be on base at that time of night. Maybe he sold the guards a convincing story, driving the semi and all.
 
This hits close to home (the pier is less than 2 miles from my house). I was just driving around on base Saturday showing my father-in-law the waterfront and specifically remember pointing out MAHAN.

Corpsmaide said:
I feel someone at the base entrance dropped the ball. Media stated officials say he should not have been allowed on base at that time without the proper reason.
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Everything I have seen/heard says that this dude had a TWIC (Transportation Worker ID Card) and as a truck driver, that is what he used to access the base. While originally the base statement said that allowed him access, NCIS is now on record as saying the TWIC alone should not have allowed him on base. Big question right now is how the hell this dude even had a TWIC, since he was a twice convicted felon (voluntary manslaughter and selling crack). TSA has some serious explaining to do.

http://www.navytimes.com/article/20...CLUSIVE-Ex-convict-ID-d-gunman-Mahan-shooting

Corpsmaide said:
The article advised the petty officer of the watch was disarmed. Where does the officer of the watch stand? Is it on the ship? Is it on the pier? I wonder where was the initial contact made with the officer of the watch. I hear there is another checkpoint you must go through to get onto the pier. So, how many checkpoints total are there that one must pass to get to the Mahan?
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Without going into too many sensitive details, on the Quarterdeck (access point of the ship) there are at least two watchstanders - the Officer of the Deck (OOD) and the Petty Officer of the Watch (POOW). I don't know for sure, but it is possible that the POOW was the only one armed at the time.

Can't really go into much details on watches or checkpoints, but there is at least one checkpoint at the end of the pier.

As I understand it, the sailor that was killed was a member of base security (not a MAHAN crewmember) who would have been at the end of the pier (called Chief of the Guard) and responded to the ship when they called for help. Latest word is that at some point after the suspect grabbed the POOW's weapon, the COG got between the POOW and the perp and that is when he was shot. Depending on some unconfirmed reports, he may or may not have gotten rounds off before being killed.

Still lots of details missing. I am sure once the dust settles, it will result in many teaching points. I will say this; regardless of how the dude got on the ship, the watchstanders did react well under pressure and prevented a bad situation from getting MUCH worse.
 
Corpsmaide said:
True. But the media says the officials say even with that, he had no reason to be on base at that time of night. Maybe he sold the guards a convincing story, driving the semi and all.
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All he would have had to say was, he was making a pick up.
they would have waved him right thru.
 
Tom-D said:
All he would have had to say was, he was making a pick up.
they would have waved him right thru.
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I will say this.....not all Navy base security is equal. IMO, NAVSTA Norfolk is much weaker than San Diego. As long as I have been in the Navy, NAVSTA Norfolk PD reminded a lot of college campus cops.
 
I wonder if the pier is active (as in people out and about) that time of night.

I would not expect a POOW to allow someone to get close enough to be disarmed. I really want to know more in reference to the locations of everyone involved. Like, was the POOW on the quarterdeck and the shooter walked up.

I do not know much about navy piers and the security involved. How well and what training do POOWs receive. It is not a LE position I take it. When I was in the Air Force they had security forces augmentees to stand guard at various posts when needed. The training, looking back, was a joke. I could see several of the augmentees being challenged and not knowing how to react. Training may be better now.
 
To get into secured areas of NAS you must have a smart card, to release the turn style.

Everett carrier port is the same way. the pier is secured by turnstile gates. but it is a lot newer base than Norfolk.
 
Corpsmaide said:
I wonder if the pier is active (as in people out and about) that time of night.

I would not expect a POOW to allow someone to get close enough to be disarmed. I really want to know more in reference to the locations of everyone involved. Like, was the POOW on the quarterdeck and the shooter walked up.

I do not know much about navy piers and the security involved. How well and what training do POOWs receive. It is not a LE position I take it. When I was in the Air Force they had security forces augmentees to stand guard at various posts when needed. The training, looking back, was a joke. I could see several of the augmentees being challenged and not knowing how to react. Training may be better now.
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Training has gotten MUCH more robust since I came in (before USS COLE and 9/11). That said, considering some of the watchstanders I see theses days while I walk around the ship as Command Duty Officer, I am very thankful that they killed the perp as quickly as they did.

Not comfortable posting the security stuff in an open forum, but I might be able to explain a little over a beer or a flight in the Baron. Shoot me a PM. I'm pretty busy these days, but might be able to fit something in the schedule in the near future.
 
Tom-D said:
To get into secured areas of NAS you must have a smart card, to release the turn style.

Everett carrier port is the same way. the pier is secured by turnstile gates. but it is a lot newer base than Norfolk.
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A lot of the west coast bases are that way now. Norfolk is in the Stone Age.
 
Fearless Tower said:
A lot of the west coast bases are that way now. Norfolk is in the Stone Age.
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You should see the sub base at Bangor.

Total control of all personal on Delta dock. You don't have a smart card and a reason to be there. you are not passing the gate.

Same at the nuclear repository at Indian Head Island.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Training has gotten MUCH more robust since I came in (before USS COLE and 9/11). That said, considering some of the watchstanders I see theses days while I walk around the ship as Command Duty Officer, I am very thankful that they killed the perp as quickly as they did.

Not comfortable posting the security stuff in an open forum, but I might be able to explain a little over a beer or a flight in the Baron. Shoot me a PM. I'm pretty busy these days, but might be able to fit something in the schedule in the near future.
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Understood. Will do.
 
Hey guys,

This was a terrible event & my prayers go out the the family of the watchstander who was killed.

However, can we refocus the thread? It is starting to wander towards sub-optimal territory for public forums.
 
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How does it happen?
Complacency.
Same dull thing night after night. All kinds of workers coming and going during the day - less at night and that is when you get relaxed. A 19 or 20 year old POOW (or some such) who would rather be at the bar shooting pool or in bed with some dolly - mind drifting away. This is just an ordinary ship, not the Admirals Flag Ship. Nothing that any group of jihadis would spend any time planning a hit on it. An experienced con with significant prison time who is a master at smiling and lying through his teeth, "yo man, how ya doin tonite? did they leave my package here?" as he slides up close.

The real question is what was the guy's reason for going to the ship? A grudge against someone on the night shift in the ship? Or maybe the POOW himself? Or strung out on meth and hallucinating? Lots of questions.

Dry rot happens even in elite units. Look at the POTUS SS scandals. Look at the nuke launch crews cheating on readiness tests. POTUS better hope the flight crews for AF-1 don't have dry rot.
There mods, brought it back on topic. AM I good or what :D
 
Dr. O said:
How does it happen?
Complacency.
Same dull thing night after night. All kinds of workers coming and going during the day - less at night and that is when you get relaxed. A 19 or 20 year old POOW (or some such) who would rather be at the bar shooting pool or in bed with some dolly - mind drifting away. This is just an ordinary ship, not the Admirals Flag Ship. Nothing that any group of jihadis would spend any time planning a hit on it. An experienced con with significant prison time who is a master at smiling and lying through his teeth, "yo man, how ya doin tonite? did they leave my package here?" as he slides up close.

The real question is what was the guy's reason for going to the ship? A grudge against someone on the night shift in the ship? Or maybe the POOW himself? Or strung out on meth and hallucinating? Lots of questions.

Dry rot happens even in elite units. Look at the POTUS SS scandals. Look at the nuke launch crews cheating on readiness tests. POTUS better hope the flight crews for AF-1 don't have dry rot.
There mods, brought it back on topic. AM I good or what :D
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I would not call it dry rot, but complacency is most likely a factor.

You are correct- the big issue right now is trying to determine what the hell this dude was even doing there.
 
As I have said before...COMPLANCENCY KILLS! I live by this. One of my Field Training Officers drilled this into my head. We learn from others, in both fortunate and unfortunate situations.
 
Corpsmaide said:
True. But the media says the officials say even with that, he had no reason to be on base at that time of night. Maybe he sold the guards a convincing story, driving the semi and all.
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With a CAC card you may enter the base anytime. We often work graveyard shifts on projects where the equipment has to be up during the day.

Searching every person and vehicle is simply not practical. There is a huge amount of traffic entering our military bases. Even with an ID check the traffic backs up for blocks. We're building automated base access systems for quite a few US and foreign basis to reduce the backup.
 
Baron2PG said:
With a CAC card you may enter the base anytime. We often work graveyard shifts on projects where the equipment has to be up during the day.

Searching every person and vehicle is simply not practical. There is a huge amount of traffic entering our military bases. Even with an ID check the traffic backs up for blocks. We're building automated base access systems for quite a few US and foreign basis to reduce the backup.
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As far back as 07 when I retired from the base we had only one place for deliveries, you were required to go there to get what was address to you.
 
Well some good news out of this horrible incident:

It appears that there are some widespread "unrelated" structural changes to base accessibility and layout, as well as revisions to ID/pass policies that will hopefully harden our bases without stovepiping legitimate access.
 
warthog1984 said:
Well some good news out of this horrible incident:

It appears that there are some widespread "unrelated" structural changes to base accessibility and layout, as well as revisions to ID/pass policies that will hopefully harden our bases without stovepiping legitimate access.
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Those structural changes will last 6 months until everyone goes back to just glancing at the ID presented without questioning whether it is a library card or a valid military ID.
 
weilke said:
Those structural changes will last 6 months until everyone goes back to just glancing at the ID presented without questioning whether it is a library card or a valid military ID.
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Yes. They may look, but do not see. Complacency.
 
weilke said:
Those structural changes will last 6 months until everyone goes back to just glancing at the ID presented without questioning whether it is a library card or a valid military ID.
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I would hope that if (for example) a sailor saw a bright yellow taxicab pull up to a gate where taxis are NEVER allowed past that a few warning bells would go off, but maybe not. :dunno:

Then again, I'm still amazed how everybody in the security office manages to retire without stockbroker-class ulcers.
 
warthog1984 said:
I would hope that if (for example) a sailor saw a bright yellow taxicab pull up to a gate where taxis are NEVER allowed past that a few warning bells would go off, but maybe not. :dunno:

Then again, I'm still amazed how everybody in the security office manages to retire without stockbroker-class ulcers.
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You need to remove the human from the equation by using smart cards and a automatic locking doors, and turn styles to gain access to the secured areas of the bases. JMHO

As far back as 1995 when I started working the engine shops at NAS I carried a smart card and it was coded with the info that allowed me to go where I had reason to go. It would open the doors to the building I worked in but not the flight line or the Prop shop building. It really was a good system for safety of a secured areas with out posting a watch.
I now notice that each hangar door that can be reached from the street has a card lock on it too.
 
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weilke said:
Those structural changes will last 6 months until everyone goes back to just glancing at the ID presented without questioning whether it is a library card or a valid military ID.
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If it is what I am thinking of, the 'structural changes' have been getting installed around bases nationwide for a few years. NS Norfolk had them before this incident. And contractor access has indeed been bottlenecked at bases in the area since Tuesday.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If it is what I am thinking of, the 'structural changes' have been getting installed around bases nationwide for a few years. NS Norfolk had them before this incident. And contractor access has indeed been bottlenecked at bases in the area since Tuesday.
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Sorta. Not so much additional infrastructure as removing some of the situational dependencies and possibilities for blending in / talking your way in.

Basically, making it so that even 2-3 years down the road- if you are NOT Navy everybody in the area will:

1) know it
2) be questioning it.
 
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