Navy air drop, civilian time… Road to PPL, need input

[DontTreadOnMe]

Wanted to see what others have to say about this, whether you've been down this road or not.

Background: I have 52.6 hrs of both military (27.7 hrs) and civilian (24.9 hrs) flight training.
- RV-6
- Cessna 150/152/172
- T-6A Texan II

Losing your dream of 24 years is hard, then you move on, distract yourself with your work, and you find yourself wanting to just get back to what you wanted to do: fly. It's been over 3 years since I lost my slot, which is the last time I sat in the cockpit… I am ready to get back to it, ready to go for my PPL.

Google search "Does military flight time count towards my PPL?":
- Lots of people asking about PPL's when applying for [military] flight training
- Lots of military applying to a company
- Lots of RAF/Aussie forums… not applicable to me
- Lots of dated information: 2009, 2011, etc.
- Lots of assumptions on the part of posters

My questions:
- Does [single engine] military flight time count towards my PPL?
- Are there any conversions for this as well, or just what I have in my log?
- Are my civilian flight hours from too long ago (starting in 2009)?

Again, this is using military and civilian flight time to earn my PPL - any info/experience with this is much appreciated!

 

[MAKG1]

I don't see any distinction in 14 CFR 61 between military and civilian time. Ratings are mentioned, but you don't have any yet, right?

As long as it's logged and signed as training, it should count.

Having said that, you'll still have to satisfy your CFI, and I'll suggest it won't make much diffrrence, especially for a part 61 outfit. 141 will want you to follow their syllabus.

Time doesn't formally expire, but you'll still have to demonstrate proficiency.

 

[Velocity173]

Sure you can use your military time to meet the aeronautical requirements for a PPL. You just can't use the special rules in 61.73 is all. Of course if you served for more than 90 days active, which I imagine you did, you can use CH33 benefits and get 10 grand per year at a Part 141 approved school once you have your private.

 

[Fearless Tower]

To the OP, are you still in? Did they boot you completely, or did they send you out to the Surface world?

 

[poadeleted20]

- Does [single engine] military flight time count towards my PPL?

Yes. It counts as total flight time towards the required 40 hours, and per 14 CFR 61.41, training time towards the required 20 hours. There is nothing in that regulation which requires successful completion of the military training for the hours to count, just that it have been in a military pilot training program.

- Are there any conversions for this as well, or just what I have in my log?

Not sure what you mean by "conversions". Every hour in your Navy flight log counts as one hour for FAA purposes.

- Are my civilian flight hours from too long ago (starting in 2009)?

There is no expiration time limit on flight training and hours other than the three hours of test prep prior to the practical test which must be accomplished within the two calendar months preceding the start of the practical test.

Again, this is using military and civilian flight time to earn my PPL - any info/experience with this is much appreciated!

My personal guess is that with the exception of the solo requirements (10 hours total, 5 hours XC), you will probably be in a "train to proficiency" situation with all the total and training time requirements already met. How long that will take is impossible to guess without personally giving you a thorough ground and flight knowledge/skill evaluation. And, of course, you will have to study for, take, and pass the aeronautical knowledge ("written") test, too.

 

[DontTreadOnMe]

MAKG and Mcfly - thank you, and no ratings yet and I did serve more than 90 days. I'll be looking in to all of it.

My personal guess is that with the exception of the solo requirements (10 hours total, 5 hours XC), you will probably be in a "train to proficiency" situation with all the total and training time requirements already met. How long that will take is impossible to guess without personally giving you a thorough ground and flight knowledge/skill evaluation. And, of course, you will have to study for, take, and pass the aeronautical knowledge ("written") test, too.

Cap'n Ron - Thorough response, thank you; the above paragraph sums it up for me. I've dusted off my books and will be getting back to it. Also, I'm just shy of solo and XC by about 9 hrs. On a few sites I saw "conversions" (military to civilian hours) referenced over and over, but that appears to only be for [former] military applying to the civilian world.

Fearless Tower - Still "in", IDWO, Reserves - didn't send me SWO Post redesignation I found out that I was one of the "lucky" ones to get Reserves… yea.

 

[poadeleted20]

On a few sites I saw "conversions" (military to civilian hours) referenced over and over, but that appears to only be for [former] military applying to the civilian world.

Airlines and other employers may have some sort of conversion for the difference in how the military measures "flight time" (typically takeoff to landing) versus the FAA method ("when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing") for the purposes of meeting employment requirements. However, I know of no such "conversion" formula in any FAA publication for pilot certification purposes. If the FAA sees a larger number for your military flight experience in your civilian pilot logbook than shows up in your military flight records (Navy logbook, Air Force Form 5's, or whatever they use today), you could be facing some serious FAA difficulty no matter what you might be able to point to on some non-FAA internet web site.

 

[Velocity173]

Airlines and other employers may have some sort of conversion for the difference in how the military measures "flight time" (typically takeoff to landing) versus the FAA method ("when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing") for the purposes of meeting employment requirements. However, I know of no such "conversion" formula in any FAA publication for pilot certification purposes. If the FAA sees a larger number for your military flight experience in your civilian pilot logbook than shows up in your military flight records (Navy logbook, Air Force Form 5's, or whatever they use today), you could be facing some serious FAA difficulty no matter what you might be able to point to on some non-FAA internet web site.

I know a lot of people in the Army will log slightly heavier in their civilian logs because of the difference in definition. Army (helicopter) is takeoff to engine shutdown or crew change. I just kept it simple and made my civilian logbook reflect my military one. I didn't need an extra .1 here and there to get a job anyway.

 

[poadeleted20]

I know a lot of people in the Army will log slightly heavier in their civilian logs because of the difference in definition.

Then they better be able to document how they came up with the different times they put in their civilian logbook. Otherwise, it doesn't look kosher to the FAA if they compare the two.

Army (helicopter) is takeoff to engine shutdown or crew change.

I can see a number of issues there converting from that definition to the FAA's. One such is when we talk about helos on skids air-taxiing out to the pad and then elevating from a hover. Where's the takeoff -- the original lift to hover-taxi, or pressing up from the hover at the pad? If the former, is it done differently for wheeled helos which roll rather than hover to the takeoff point?

I just kept it simple and made my civilian logbook reflect my military one. I didn't need an extra .1 here and there to get a job anyway.

Wise choice, and way simpler to document and explain to the FAA.

 

[Velocity173]

Then they better be able to document how they came up with the different times they put in their civilian logbook. Otherwise, it doesn't look kosher to the FAA if they compare the two.
I can see a number of issues there converting from that definition to the FAA's. One such is when we talk about helos on skids air-taxiing out to the pad and then elevating from a hover. Where's the takeoff -- the original lift to hover-taxi, or pressing up from the hover at the pad? If the former, is it done differently for wheeled helos which roll rather than hover to the takeoff point?
Wise choice, and way simpler to document and explain to the FAA.

I believe the skid guys (OH-58) start logging as soon as they pick up to a hover to taxi out. Basically once the aircraft leaves the ground they're legal. Wheeled guys (UH-60) usually roll out to the runway/pad. Once they pick up to a hover they start logging. So really the only pilots who could log a little heavy in their civ logs would be wheeled because they aren't logging the taxi for takeoff on their military records. Still, if they're doing a long shutdown after landing, all of that counts towards time in their military logs but not civilian.

The aircraft I fly now (B407) has a weight on gear switch so the hobbs starts logging as soon as I pick up and stops on landing. To me, that's the best way to log time in helos.

 

[Blackhawk]

Then they better be able to document how they came up with the different times they put in their civilian logbook. Otherwise, it doesn't look kosher to the FAA if they compare the two.
I can see a number of issues there converting from that definition to the FAA's. One such is when we talk about helos on skids air-taxiing out to the pad and then elevating from a hover. Where's the takeoff -- the original lift to hover-taxi, or pressing up from the hover at the pad? If the former, is it done differently for wheeled helos which roll rather than hover to the takeoff point?
Wise choice, and way simpler to document and explain to the FAA.

I just kept it simple and logged in my civilian logbook but since FAR 1 has a different definition of flight time than what the military has I don't think it be a big issue and don't know of any cases where the FAA has brought action against someone. It is no different from the difference between Hobbs time and flight time. The two are not necessarily the same, especially in airplane's with airspeed driven Hobbs meters. A bigger issue if someone wants to go to an airline is that some ask you to convert military time to civilian,msomemsay not to.

On the comment you made on the military time counting toward the 20 hours of dual. Do you think this is the case if the military IP has not "logged" this time in the pilot's logbook? If there is no IP signature is the training "logged"? That is one that I have thought about.

 

[poadeleted20]

I just kept it simple and logged in my civilian logbook but since FAR 1 has a different definition of flight time than what the military has I don't think it be a big issue and don't know of any cases where the FAA has brought action against someone. It is no different from the difference between Hobbs time and flight time. The two are not necessarily the same, especially in airplane's with airspeed driven Hobbs meters.

There's a big difference between which of the two (Hobbs/tach) you choose to use for aircraft maintenance purposes and having different times in different pilot logbooks for the same flight. The latter will raise questions if noticed.

A bigger issue if someone wants to go to an airline is that some ask you to convert military time to civilian,msomemsay not to.

That's entirely up to the airline, not the FAA, and they'll tell you what they allow for meeting their hiring requirements. And the answer may vary between different airlines, so make sure you read the instructions for that particular airline's application form before you start putting in numbers.

On the comment you made on the military time counting toward the 20 hours of dual. Do you think this is the case if the military IP has not "logged" this time in the pilot's logbook? If there is no IP signature is the training "logged"? That is one that I have thought about.

My Navy Aviator's Flight Log Book has a "Kind of Flight Code" column, and the middle letter "D" in that code tells that it's student aviator flight training. That along with the instructor's name recorded in the Remarks column (which it has on all my training flights and I believe is SOP) will suffice for the FAA to accept it as "training received". I believe the Air Force and Army have equivalent means of denoting training received, too.

 

[Blackhawk]

There's a big difference between which of the two (Hobbs/tach) you choose to use for aircraft maintenance purposes and having different times in different pilot logbooks for the same flight. The latter will raise questions if noticed.

That's entirely up to the airline, not the FAA, and they'll tell you what they allow for meeting their hiring requirements. And the answer may vary between different airlines, so make sure you read the instructions for that particular airline's application form before you start putting in numbers.

My Navy Aviator's Flight Log Book has a "Kind of Flight Code" column, and the middle letter "D" in that code tells that it's student aviator flight training. That along with the instructor's name recorded in the Remarks column (which it has on all my training flights and I believe is SOP) will suffice for the FAA to accept it as "training received". I believe the Air Force and Army have equivalent means of denoting training received, too.

Again, if a pilot can point to the difference in military flight time verses what FAR 1 states I don't think the FAA would bring a case nor do I know of any cases and over the years I can just about guarantee that more than a few military pilots have shown up at a FSDO with civilian and military logs that did not match up. Again, with the Hobbs time you will often have a difference between what is shown in aircraft logs or flight school logs and what is legal to put in your log book. Not only is it perfectly legal to log the FAR 1 time but in the case of 121 and 135 pilots they may violate duty and flight time limitations if they try to use the Hobbs time verses the FAR 1 legal definition of flight time. This goes hand in hand with military verses civilian differences in logging PIC time. But really kind of a pointless argument as I agree with you that it is probably just safer and easier for pilots to log the time 1 for 1.

I agree with the airlines and it is a reason for someone who intends to fill out airline applications to go with the more conservative route.

The Army does not have a means of designating dual time- it is recorded the same as copilot time or "PI". In addition, unless a student presents a civilian logbook to an IP I know of no record for Army pilots that contains the name of the IP from flight school. I know I have no paper record though I do remember some of the names, especially my primary IP. Not that I need that info at this point.

 

[poadeleted20]

Again, if a pilot can point to the difference in military flight time verses what FAR 1 states I don't think the FAA would bring a case nor do I know of any cases and over the years I can just about guarantee that more than a few military pilots have shown up at a FSDO with civilian and military logs that did not match up.

I didn't say there would be a case brought, just that it would raise questions. If you're ready with good answers, mighty fine, but expect to have to explain the difference.

The Army does not have a means of designating dual time- it is recorded the same as copilot time or "PI". In addition, unless a student presents a civilian logbook to an IP I know of no record for Army pilots that contains the name of the IP from flight school. I know I have no paper record though I do remember some of the names, especially my primary IP. Not that I need that info at this point.

Then if you have only those Army flight records to document time needed to meet FAA Part 61 training time requirements, and you need that time to meet those requirements, you could have a problem. Of course, this is only going to be an issue for someone who failed to complete their military pilot training, because military wings get you a CP ticket regardless of your actual aeronautical experience (once you take the military equivalence written test) and there are no training time requirements for ATP.

 

[Blackhawk]

I didn't say there would be a case brought, just that it would raise questions. If you're ready with good answers, mighty fine, but expect to have to explain the difference.

Then if you have only those Army flight records to document time needed to meet FAA Part 61 training time requirements, and you need that time to meet those requirements, you could have a problem. Of course, this is only going to be an issue for someone who failed to complete their military pilot training, because military wings get you a CP ticket regardless of your actual aeronautical experience (once you take the military equivalence written test) and there are no training time requirements for ATP.

Actually it comes up any time a pilot must show "logged dual", such as a RW pilot doing a private add-on due to the wording "...must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor..." I don't know of an exception for pilots doing an add-on even though I don't know of a way for the pilot to get to that point without the 20 hours of logged time.

 

[MAKG1]

Are military instructors not "authorized?"

 

[poadeleted20]

Actually it comes up any time a pilot must show "logged dual", such as a RW pilot doing a private add-on due to the wording "...must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor..." I don't know of an exception for pilots doing an add-on even though I don't know of a way for the pilot to get to that point without the 20 hours of logged time.

You're confusing two questions here. One is when your civilian pilot logbook shows a different flight time for the same flight as that flight shows in the military flight record. The other is whether or not military pilot flight training is counted as "training received". Let's look at the two questions separately.

For the first question, I stand by my position that if the two logs show different flight time for the same flight, you'd better have an explanation the FAA will accept. However, if you have and can make that explanation, there will be no problem.

For the second question, if the military record clearly shows that it was a military pilot training flight with an instructor (like the "D" code in the Navy log book), I again say there will be no problems. However, if your military flight records do not show in a demonstrable manner that it was a pilot training flight with an instructor (as you suggest is the case with Army flight records -- I'm not familiar with that service's flight records as I am with USAF and US Navy), you should not try to count it towards any FAA Part 61 "training time" requirement unless you have some other FAA-acceptable supporting documentation.

 

[poadeleted20]

Are military instructors not "authorized?"

In some contexts, but not all. 14 CFR 61.41 says the following:

Sec. 61.41

Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA

(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either--
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.
(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.

So, the logged training time from a military instructor may be used to meet training time requirements for an FAA pilot certificate or rating. However, that's the limit of that authorization. They are not authorized to give a flight review, solo, IPC, complex, tailwheel, practical test, etc, endorsement unless they also hold a FAA CFI ticket with appropriate ratings/privileges (in which case their military instructor status is moot).

 

[Velocity173]

You CAN make the distinction between FAR 1 and the Army definition of flight. In the Army in a wheeled aircraft such as a Black hawk, they aren't logging the taxi out for takeoff because they haven't left the ground yet. That could be 5 minutes added for each flight that they could use in their civilian log books. A skids guy, they should almost mirror their civ logs because they obviously are hover taxiing. In their case their military logs should be higher than their civ logs because they don't stop til engine shutdown. With a 2 min NG cool down each flight a 58 guy could be getting a .1 here and there.

As far as logging the dual, I would think the FAA would accept PI time as dual logged regardless of any indicator of it being dual. Just put in the remarks of your civ logs of what training occurred during the flight.

 

[poadeleted20]

As far as logging the dual, I would think the FAA would accept PI time as dual logged regardless of any indicator of it being dual. Just put in the remarks of your civ logs of what training occurred during the flight.

What is the official US Army definition of "PI"? I really don't know. Blackhawk's post seemed to equate it to "co-pilot" time, which the FAA would definitely not accept as "training time" without additional documentation of instruction received from an Army-authorized instructor.

 

[Blackhawk]

You're confusing two questions here. One is when your civilian pilot logbook shows a different flight time for the same flight as that flight shows in the military flight record. The other is whether or not military pilot flight training is counted as "training received". Let's look at the two questions separately.

For the first question, I stand by my position that if the two logs show different flight time for the same flight, you'd better have an explanation the FAA will accept. However, if you have and can make that explanation, there will be no problem.

For the second question, if the military record clearly shows that it was a military pilot training flight with an instructor (like the "D" code in the Navy log book), I again say there will be no problems. However, if your military flight records do not show in a demonstrable manner that it was a pilot training flight with an instructor (as you suggest is the case with Army flight records -- I'm not familiar with that service's flight records as I am with USAF and US Navy), you should not try to count it towards any FAA Part 61 "training time" requirement unless you have some other FAA-acceptable supporting documentation.

No, I'm not confusing the questions. The comment was made several times in this thread that the military training time in primary can count toward additional ratings. As we've established this is not the case unless there is some way to show logged dual instruction. The FAA has never really said what "logged" is as long as there is some record, be it a civilian logbook with an IP signature, a military record showing dual instruction, heck, even a napkin. I am not familiar with the Navy and Air Force records, but I know the newer Army records do not show this though some of the older paper records may have IP signatures if the pilot still has these. I know the Army actually purged these from my flight records years ago when they went from manual to electronic records, though aside from sentimental value it was no big deal.
I agree with you on the logging and my recommendation to anyone in the military with civilian flying aspirations would be to keep an electronic logbook with separate total times, one that matches your military total time and another that is the meets the FAR 1 definition of flight time.

 

[Blackhawk]

What is the official US Army definition of "PI"? I really don't know. Blackhawk's post seemed to equate it to "co-pilot" time, which the FAA would definitely not accept as "training time" without additional documentation of instruction received from an Army-authorized instructor.

That's what it is. There is no distinction between "PI dual" and "PI SIC" in the Army. There is actually a CP or "copilot" time in the Army, but it is actually non-stick time, time when a rated aviator is on an aircraft acting as a crew member but not at flight controls- kind of like back seater time in the Navy and Air Force.

 

[Blackhawk]

Are military instructors not "authorized?"

As Ron wrote, yes (kind of). The issue is not "authorized", the issue is "logged". The first question I ask a military pilot who wants to count military dual toward training required is "show me the logged instruction", some proof of the dual.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, I'm not confusing the questions. The comment was made several times in this thread that the military training time in primary can count toward additional ratings. As we've established this is not the case unless there is some way to show logged dual instruction. The FAA has never really said what "logged" is as long as there is some record, be it a civilian logbook with an IP signature, a military record showing dual instruction, heck, even a napkin.

The FAA has very specifically stated on numerous occasions that military flight records are required to show military flight experience that wasn't logged in a pilot logbook IAW 14 CFR 61.51. So, that napkin would have to include all the items required by 61.51 to be acceptable (even if it says "Fort Rucker Officers Club" on it). If the Army flight records you provide do not have a means to clearly distinguish pilot training time with an instructor from performance of co-pilot duties, then the FAA will not accept it as "training time" for Part 61 purposes.

I am not familiar with the Navy and Air Force records, but I know the newer Army records do not show this though some of the older paper records may have IP signatures if the pilot still has these.

The FAA does not require instructor signatures on military flight records, just that the records show it was flight training received in a military pilot training program.

I agree with you on the logging and my recommendation to anyone in the military with civilian flying aspirations would be to keep an electronic logbook with separate total times, one that matches your military total time and another that is the meets the FAR 1 definition of flight time.

Glad we agree on that.

 

[poadeleted20]

That's what it is.

What is "what it is"? I asked "A or B", and you said "Yes".

There is no distinction between "PI dual" and "PI SIC" in the Army. .

I'm still not getting what the exact, official definition of "PI" time is. Is that "Pilot under Instruction", i.e., a pilot or pilot trainee receiving training from an instructor-designated pilot? If so, the FAA won't care much whether you were acting as co-pilot or first pilot while receiving that training as long as it was pilot training received in a military pilot training program.

There is actually a CP or "copilot" time in the Army, but it is actually non-stick time, time when a rated aviator is on an aircraft acting as a crew member but not at flight controls- kind of like back seater time in the Navy and Air Force

No, the Navy and Air Force both have their equivalent of what you describe as US Army CP time. It was "Co-Pilot" in the Navy, and CP in the USAF. If a pilot not acting as PIC was flying the plane, it was logged as FP or "First Pilot" time, and if not flying, it was Co-Pilot or CP time. The PIC also logged Aircraft Commander (AC) time regardless of whether s/he was flying plus FP time when "hands on". That included when a rated pilot/aviator occupied a seat normally occupied by a non-pilot NFO/WSO (e.g., F-111 right seat). NFO/WSO's logged something else entirely, and did not log pilot time in their military records even when flying the aircraft.

 

[Blackhawk]

What is "what it is"? I asked "A or B", and you said "Yes".

I'm still not getting what the exact, official definition of "PI" time is. Is that "Pilot under Instruction", i.e., a pilot or pilot trainee receiving training from an instructor-designated pilot? If so, the FAA won't care much whether you were acting as co-pilot or first pilot while receiving that training as long as it was pilot training received in a military pilot training program.

No, the Navy and Air Force both have their equivalent of what you describe as US Army CP time. It was "Co-Pilot" in the Navy, and CP in the USAF. If a pilot not acting as PIC was flying the plane, it was logged as FP or "First Pilot" time, and if not flying, it was Co-Pilot or CP time. The PIC also logged Aircraft Commander (AC) time regardless of whether s/he was flying plus FP time when "hands on". That included when a rated pilot/aviator occupied a seat normally occupied by a non-pilot NFO/WSO (e.g., F-111 right seat). NFO/WSO's logged something else entirely, and did not log pilot time in their military records even when flying the aircraft.

PI=pilot time. Someone on a set of flight controls but not the PIC. It can be a student in flight school or it can be a rated aviator in a dual control aircraft. The Army does not make a distinction.
CP sounds like the same as the Navy's "Co-Pilot" and CP in the USAF. I did not know they had those. No FAA equivalent.
PC= aircraft commander. In the Army always at a flight control station.
IP the same. Could log it in the front or back. I never counted my IP time when not occupying a flight control station as civilian flight time although the Army did count it.

 

[Velocity173]

Ron, "PI" simply means Pilot. It's like a second in command position. Has nothing to do with on or off the controls. "PC" means Pilot in Command. That has nothing to do with on or off the controls either. In the Army they are both briefed positions.

 

[Blackhawk]

The FAA has very specifically stated on numerous occasions that military flight records are required to show military flight experience that wasn't logged in a pilot logbook IAW 14 CFR 61.51. So, that napkin would have to include all the items required by 61.51 to be acceptable (even if it says "Fort Rucker Officers Club" on it). If the Army flight records you provide do not have a means to clearly distinguish pilot training time with an instructor from performance of co-pilot duties, then the FAA will not accept it as "training time" for Part 61 purposes.

The FAA does not require instructor signatures on military flight records, just that the records show it was flight training received in a military pilot training program.

Glad we agree on that.

The problem with the Army is that I know of no other way to prove dual other than an IP signature, pen or electronic. There is no flight time I can look at in an Army flight log and say "that is dual time".

 

[Blackhawk]

Ron, "PI" simply means Pilot. It's like a second in command position. Has nothing to do with on or off the controls. "PC" means Pilot in Command. That has nothing to do with on or off the controls either. In the Army they are both briefed positions.

Been a few years, but I believe "PI" must be at a set of flight controls. CP is not at a set of flight controls.

 

[Velocity173]

Been a few years, but I believe "PI" must be at a set of flight controls. CP is not at a set of flight controls.

Yeah, I was referring to "on the controls" as physically flying the aircraft. As you said you do have to be seated at a control position but there's no requirement to actually be the sole manipulator of the controls to log either PI or PC.

 

[poadeleted20]

PI=pilot time. Someone on a set of flight controls but not the PIC. It can be a student in flight school or it can be a rated aviator in a dual control aircraft. The Army does not make a distinction.

Then that is not sufficient to obtain FAA "training time" credit. You'd need other supporting documentation that any particular flight was training with an IP for that time to receive "training time" credit. That said, it's not likely to be an issue -- I doubt anyone who failed to complete US Army pilot training is going to be ready for an FAA PP practical test with less than 20 more hours with a CFI. Possible, but not likely.

CP sounds like the same as the Navy's "Co-Pilot" and CP in the USAF. I did not know they had those. No FAA equivalent.

Correct. Closest would be SIC time, which means acting as required SIC but either not "hands on" or not rated for the aircraft.

PC= aircraft commander. In the Army always at a flight control station.

Can be elsewise in something like a P-3 or B-52. OTOH, it's really hard to be in an F-15E without being at a control station (the case of that guy stuffed in a drop tank on an F-14 on the TV show NCIS notwithstanding).

IP the same. Could log it in the front or back. I never counted my IP time when not occupying a flight control station as civilian flight time although the Army did count it.

So would the FAA, although the only situation where the FAA cares about how much instructor time you have is when qualifying as a Part 141 instructor.

 

[Velocity173]

One disparity you'll see with some pilots getting out of the Army is PIC time. Some pilots log PIC in their civ logs while being the sole manipulator of the controls even though they are just a PI. That can amount to a significant difference between what their military records show as PIC and their civ logs. I only logged briefed, acting PIC time in my civ logs so they matched my military ones. My employer even asked if my PIC claim was Army PIC time. Yes, yes it is.

 

[Blackhawk]

Then that is not sufficient to obtain FAA "training time" credit. You'd need other supporting documentation that any particular flight was training with an IP for that time to receive "training time" credit. That said, it's not likely to be an issue -- I doubt anyone who failed to complete US Army pilot training is going to be ready for an FAA PP practical test with less than 20 more hours with a CFI. Possible, but not likely.

Correct. Closest would be SIC time, which means acting as required SIC but either not "hands on" or not rated for the aircraft.

Can be elsewise in something like a P-3 or B-52. OTOH, it's really hard to be in an F-15E without being at a control station (the case of that guy stuffed in a drop tank on an F-14 on the TV show NCIS notwithstanding).

So would the FAA, although the only situation where the FAA cares about how much instructor time you have is when qualifying as a Part 141 instructor.

I agree.

 

[Blackhawk]

One disparity you'll see with some pilots getting out of the Army is PIC time. Some pilots log PIC in their civ logs while being the sole manipulator of the controls even though they are just a PI. That can amount to a significant difference between what their military records show as PIC and their civ logs. I only logged briefed, acting PIC time in my civ logs so they matched my military ones. My employer even asked if my PIC claim was Army PIC time. Yes, yes it is.

What I recommend pilots do is keep two separate log books or an electronic logbook. As you pointed out employers usually only count PIC time as the person who signed for the aircraft.
On the flip side a pilot may need the FAA PIC time to qualify for a rating such as the ATP and not tracking this may hurt them.