Navaho Ambulance down short of PWK

mikea

mikea

Touchdown! Greaser!
Gone West
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iWin
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That was a fustrating "expert" Now no one will want to learn how to fly them scary small airplanes.
 
Right before this they had the scary list of the 4 recent GA plane crashes - over the last 3 weeks - over the entire United States.

Now to Erin with traffic: "Another fatal accident on the Stevenson..."
 
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Still don't know how a pilot can run out of fuel. The Navajo can hold a nice a mount of fuel even with pax on board.
 
I think that we need to lobby to have every single car crash and the # of fatalities reported. Why is every one out for GA...
 
Inverted said:
Still don't know how a pilot can run out of fuel. The Navajo can hold a nice a mount of fuel even with pax on board.
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Fuel starvation and fuel exhaustion are two different things.
 
saracelica said:
That was a fustrating "expert" Now no one will want to learn how to fly them scary small airplanes.
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:confused:I don't see anything wrong with anything he said. He wasn't trashing small airplanes, he was speaking the truth. You're talking about that Robert Mark guy, right?
 
GCA319 said:
:confused:I don't see anything wrong with anything he said. He wasn't trashing small airplanes, he was speaking the truth. You're talking about that Robert Mark guy, right?
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I didn't see anything wrong with what he said either, he wasn't exactly concise but w/e

I think the OP was more likely referring to the expressions of and questions asked by the news anchors. That was a bit painful. Also the recent small airplane crashes graphic they displayed
 
dell30rb said:
I didn't see anything wrong with what he said either, he wasn't exactly concise but w/e

I think the OP was more likely referring to the expressions of and questions asked by the news anchors. That was a bit painful. Also the recent small airplane crashes graphic they displayed
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The media's perspective on aviation is always painful:mad2:
 
dell30rb said:
I didn't see anything wrong with what he said either, he wasn't exactly concise but w/e

I think the OP was more likely referring to the expressions of and questions asked by the news anchors. That was a bit painful. Also the recent small airplane crashes graphic they displayed
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I couldn't even sit through watching the whole fiasco.

I would have asked if they could make up a similar graphic on the recent auto deaths from just this week: "Pilots are required to have hundreds of hours of intense training and skill reviews at least every second year. When was the last time you had a driving test?" "The aircraft must be completely maintained and inspected at least annually. When was the last time your car was inspected?" (Private cars are not inspected in Illinois, other than for emissions)
 
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mikea said:
"Pilots are required to have hundreds of hours of intense training and skill reviews at least every second year. When was the last time you had a driving test?" "The aircraft must be completely maintained and inspected at least annually. When was the last time your car was inspected?"
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Did we watch the same video? I don't recall him (either the interviewer or the expert) saying those things.
 
Inverted said:
Still don't know how a pilot can run out of fuel. The Navajo can hold a nice a mount of fuel even with pax on board.
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It depends on which Navajo you're flying, how many passengers, and what power settings you use. However, when operating with 8 passengers and luggage, yes, I have had to be very careful with my fuel planning, even with my economy power settings that I use. Unfortunately, the owner does not permit LOP operation (and since he doesn't have an engine monitor, it's rather difficult to do safely), or I could extend my range further.

Running out of fuel would be a very stupid way to crash, though.
 
Everskyward said:
Did we watch the same video? I don't recall him (either the interviewer or the expert) saying those things.
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That's what I would have said.

The better answer is to have them call the AOPA PR rep.
 
mikea said:
That's what I would have said.
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That would have gone over well...

I didn't have much problem with the "expert". What is said was simplified but more or less the truth. Small airplanes are statistically far more likely to have accidents than airliners and many accidents are due to pilot error.
 
Counting windows it looks like a chieftain, so just shy of 200gal useable. Those big TIO540s can be thirsty depending on how hard you run them.
 
Skylane81E said:
Counting windows it looks like a chieftain, so just shy of 200gal useable. Those big TIO540s can be thirsty depending on how hard you run them.
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This summer in the Chieftain I fly we were burning about 50 gph average for the trip (owner likes to go fast). In the 310 HP Navajo I fly (196 gallons) it averages out to 40 gph or a hair less at my economy cruise power, which is nicer.
 
Everskyward said:
That would have gone over well...

I didn't have much problem with the "expert". What is said was simplified but more or less the truth. Small airplanes are statistically far more likely to have accidents than airliners and many accidents are due to pilot error.
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Ya don't think they'd keep my number on hand as the next go to expert, huh?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
This summer in the Chieftain I fly we were burning about 50 gph average for the trip (owner likes to go fast). In the 310 HP Navajo I fly (196 gallons) it averages out to 40 gph or a hair less at my economy cruise power, which is nicer.
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We go slow, so between 30 and 40 on the 350hp ship
 
mikea said:
Ya don't think they'd keep my number on hand as the next go to expert, huh?
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Only if the REALLY want to turn people off GA. Sarcasm won't bring people over to your side.
 
Did they refuel enroute?
 
Is the flight on the tracker?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It depends on which Navajo you're flying, how many passengers, and what power settings you use. However, when operating with 8 passengers and luggage, yes, I have had to be very careful with my fuel planning, even with my economy power settings that I use. Unfortunately, the owner does not permit LOP operation (and since he doesn't have an engine monitor, it's rather difficult to do safely), or I could extend my range further.

Running out of fuel would be a very stupid way to crash, though.
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One one Navajo I am familiar with and thats the -310. -350 is the Chieftain. But I know what you are saying. I only load cargo but we can get maybe 800 lbs into ours with full fuel.
 
Skylane81E said:
Counting windows it looks like a chieftain, so just shy of 200gal useable. Those big TIO540s can be thirsty depending on how hard you run them.
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FAA has deemed ours as all having 192 usable. We factor 35GPH with our power settings but we run really conservative.
 
I think the 350 may be a few gallons more. I don't remember the exact capacity, but when some one asks I just say 200gal because it's so close.

That 35 number is probably close to what we burn. I think I was told 17/side the way they get run.
 
Sorry I meant 36GPH. We use that to calculate fuel burn based on our block times. Our Navajo As have 186 gal, the Bs 187, and the Chieftain 192. At least that's what the FAA makes us use.
 
3 hours 41 minutes. If they didn't take off with full fuel, that's a bit of a stretch.
 
Flying h4x0r said:
That's weird how it picks up a return every minute at the same location from 10:46 to 1:58. am at 700 MSL (which is just above field elevation). Was the transponder on and squawking all that time?
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700MSL is exactly the ground. My home base is 758.
 
He may have encountered stronger than planned headwinds with a KORD forecast for 02018G38. Working in the city yesterday, my building was swaying to the point you could see the windows flex.
 
Inverted said:
Sorry I meant 36GPH. We use that to calculate fuel burn based on our block times. Our Navajo As have 186 gal, the Bs 187, and the Chieftain 192. At least that's what the FAA makes us use.
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Now that I'm at the airport we are indeed 192gal
 
This plane had a known problem with the fuel flow indicator. When the pilot set the FF to 18 gph, the engine was actually burning 21 gph. That's 3 gph per engine more than the pilot knew he was burning. That's 6 additional gallons per hour. In a 3.75 hour period, he burned 22.5 extra gallons he didn't know he was burning. This problem was written up more than 5 times and nothing was ever done about it. As a matter of fact, the squawk sheets for these write ups were removed and never fixed. The Chief Pilot and Chief Mechanic knew of this problem and did nothing about it. This accident was avoidable and is tragic. The Chief Pilot and Mechanic should be held accountable. Mr. Didier did not have "get there itis". He had a problem with his plane he was unaware of. Pilots are generally taught that it's safer to fly an airplane based on time, using a known fuel burn rate. If the plane was burning more gas than the pilot knew, there's nothing he can do other than land sooner. Fuel gauges in light planes are notoriously unreliable and off by many gallons plus or minus the actual amount.
 
Fearless Tower said:
ATC audio is up at LiveATC.net:
http://www.liveatc.net/recordings.php

They pretty much stated 'we're out of fuel'.
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Emergency is declared at 7:17 into that recording.

014OVC at the time...ugh! Not much time to find a clear field when breaking out of the clouds.

New controller voice at 14:05 into the recording (was female, then male).

Around 25:25 ATC asks another aircraft if any ELT is being heard on 121.5 MHz. None heard yet, recording ends shortly thereafter.

Really very little heard from the doomed aircraft.
 
Morne said:
Emergency is declared at 7:17 into that recording.

014OVC at the time...ugh! Not much time to find a clear field when breaking out of the clouds.
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Riverwoods is not too congested. It's almost entirely upscale residences on huge lots and former farms.
 
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