NA"Unschooling"NA

And how did you make the assessment of my knowledge?

I repeat -- broad stroked and ignorant, and somehow acceptable when it's applied to "Christians," but not for other, protected categories.

As a Christian I might have been offended by his statement, however, I interpreted the phrase as not describing all Christians, but rather those who are basically so gung-ho, so zealous that they come across as nuts (or are actually nuts).

There are people who like guns and enjoy shooting or hunting, and there are gun nuts

There are people who people who are concerned about the environment and there are eco-nuts.

While there are certainly some people on POA who think Christians are idiots for believing in God, I don't recall him (steingar) as being someone who has expressed that view.
 
Gee this thread has wandered, but here's a position, FWIW:

A colege degree provides an objective measure that the degreed person has the commitment and ability to jump through a wide variety of hoops, has self-improvement somewhere in his/her constitution, and understands the value of knowledge and challenge.

The specific grist used for that mill is inconsequential, unless its preparatory to some body of knowledge such as engineering, architecture, sciences, or some such which is more efficiently learned through a syllabus than acquired through self-training.
 
Where does that say "college degree".

Right - but take a person with the 2 year degree and put him up against a person with 2 or 4 years experience.

Guess who wins.

That's the point. College should not be a requirement for that type of job.
 
Gee this thread has wandered, but here's a position, FWIW:

A colege degree provides an objective measure that the degreed person has the commitment and ability to jump through a wide variety of hoops, has self-improvement somewhere in his/her constitution, and understands the value of knowledge and challenge.

The specific grist used for that mill is inconsequential, unless its preparatory to some body of knowledge such as engineering, architecture, sciences, or some such which is more efficiently learned through a syllabus than acquired through self-training.

Spelling excepted.

I keed, I keed.

I don't think anyone can legitimately argue that a college education is a bad thing, even if it's just the exposure to ideas that wouldn't have been encountered but for the experience. I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had whether or not it's worth today's costs, and the amount of debt a young person has to incur to get one.
 
A colege degree provides a $60,000 measure that the degreed person has the commitment and ability to jump through a wide variety of hoops, has self-improvement somewhere in his/her constitution, and understands the value of knowledge and challenge.

Fixed that for you.
 
I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had whether or not it's worth today's costs, and the amount of debt a young person has to incur to get one.


The "costs" have been artificially inflated beyond reason.

Who actually pays retail tuition these days? Uncle Sam is footing an ever larger share, and so the only number that matter is what *I* have to pay, now.
 
Right - but take a person with the 2 year degree and put him up against a person with 2 or 4 years experience.

Guess who wins.
I don't know since I have never applied at McDonalds. I also have a 4-year degree...
 
Read his last post in this thread and then get back to me...

:rolleyes2:

The post in question:

While my own experiences and readings agree with the sentiment, I might have phrased it differently.

My experiences, albeit limited, and readings on the subject, somewhat less limited, have suggested to me that the home schooling community is enriched in the more zealous component of the Christian community. I would hesitate to call them "church nuts" out of common courtesy.
 
The "costs" have been artificially inflated beyond reason.

Who actually pays retail tuition these days? Uncle Sam is footing an ever larger share, and so the only number that matter is what *I* have to pay, now.

I don't disagree with you. The costs are way out of line, and there are a wide range of drivers, not the least of which are university administrations rubbing their hands together over grabbing a share of easy student credit. However, the portion the Feds pay is a small percentage. Student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy, so they are essentially forever. It's the student that ultimately gets railed.
 
A colege degree provides an objective measure that the degreed person has the commitment and ability to jump through a wide variety of hoops, has self-improvement somewhere in his/her constitution, and understands the value of knowledge and challenge.

Not really.
The true issue here is that the public school system has degraded to the point where a high school diploma means nothing at all.

As a result, the Bachelor's Degree has become the new de facto standard to represent a certain level of knowledge and capability, because the old standard (high school diploma) now means absolutely nothing.
The problem is that the BS/BA is becoming so watered down that its value has declined rapidly.

It used to be that a high school diploma meant someone was literate, well spoken, could rapidly make change for a purchase in their head, was able to fill out a mailing label without assistance, and knew who what the Constitution and Declaration of Independence were.
A Bachelor's Degree meant you almost certainly could discuss Greek and Roman history (in broad terms at least), had read the classics, knew who Jung and Heidegger were, understood the tenets of philosophy and logic, and could the volume of rock needed to fill a round hole two feet wide and three feet deep.

Today, a Bachelor's Degree means what a high school diploma meant decades ago, and the level of knowledge is about the same. I am seeing Master's Degrees pop as requirements for positions that used to require a BS/BA.
 
The problem is that the BS/BA is becoming so watered down that its value has declined rapidly.

And the price tag has gone up significantly and continues to rise. This seems to be a market effect of cheap student loans, similar to the lending situation we are still dealing with in the housing market.

Schools couldn't possibly charge what they charge without the various government-administered aid programs.

I am seeing Master's Degrees pop as requirements for positions that used to require a BS/BA.

This is also having a detrimental effect in that most folks are running up significant personal debt to reach this goal just to have a "good job", but they're stifled in their ability to take any significant risks with their knowledge once they land that job in this soft economy because they badly need the job to pay on those student loans for 20 years.

You used to be able to tough out a few lean years with a Masters degree (when they meant something) and your pay would grow significantly as you got a few year's experience under your belt. Now you're going after jobs that once only required a "real" BS/BA and making that salary to pay off the Masters.

Entrepreneur types could "work their way up" in most companies years ago too. Many places were more than happy to hire and train upper people from within. You don't see that nearly as much, anymore.

They'll take the MBA with no experience to manage a technical division or department over someone who worked every job from the bottom up. And then they'll wonder why the staff is unmotivated to work for an Excel-junkie who has no idea what the department even truly does for a living, but pushes every new thing they read about in a trade rag.

It's utterly broken, fiscally and motivation-wise. Once you have that middle-class job, you no longer qualify for the aid or loans unless the price tags are even higher. Vicious cycle. You're not going back at that point. Not if you're not going to make more than a 10% raise for a $50K additional degree. You might go for personal mental enrichment, but fiscally it's not a good deal if you've already worked for the "right" places and have good resume' credentials via real-world experience.

Even more sickening is that there's thousands of MBAs who come out of school who can't figure this out.

If your life itself can't turn a "profit" on your balance sheet by age 30, you're not exactly going to be living the traditional "American Dream" lifestyle without adding even more personal debt.

Then what? Go get your PhD on even bigger loans? It just doesn't make any fiscal sense.

Not saying the no-degree life is necessarily better, which is where I've lived my whole life. I always had to get stuff done faster, cheaper, and better than my "credentialed" counterparts in IT. But they always seem surprised at my ability to fix damn near anything. It's because I had to.

They give up if it's not in a book or they implement stuff that sounds great on paper that's a god-awful nightmare to maintain in the real-world and usually far too complex versus the actual business need. At least in IT, anyway. You sit there wondering if anyone ever explained to them that applying that stuff from critical thinking or logic courses is supposed to be done to their designs.

That's certainly one thing college is poor at teaching... That anyone can learn or do anything with or without the school. It may be harder without the school, but self discipline gets you further than any piece of paper, most of the time.

Especially after you have a few years and a reputation of better than average work.

Something else is going on, because our "highly educated" society has piles and piles of public service announcements with such gems as "Don't ever shake a baby" and other great ones that are aired with quite some frequency, which just stops me in my tracks while my jaw opens in surprise at the utter levels of true stupidity we still embrace here. Culturally we still shun knowledge and ability as "too hard" and people actually agree. There's something really wrong with that.

I'd happily go back and get a PhD on someone else's dime if I ever hit a bad job patch ever again. Student loans are the only loans that are foregiven at death and not paid for by the estate of the deceased. Getting a couple of degrees for fun in my 70s might be a fun way to shaft someone else with a huge bill after I'm dead. ;)
 
For most kids, unschooling makes as much sense as one if us building time in ultralights in order to land an airline gig.

It's not realistic prep.

And to clarify. I'm referring to UNschooling. Not homeschooling as a whole.
 
Last edited:
I'm homeschooled. It's nice, because if I went to public school I wouldn't be able to do near the amount of flying I do. I'm not homeschooled in the traditional way though, I go to classes 2 days a week and I learn, then do all the bookwork at home. Whoever said that most homeschoolers are really awkward hit the nail on the head. They are. I'm thankful for the fact I spend most of my time at the airport so I have some interaction.

Homeschoolers are usually pretty quick to tell you have much more awesome they are than you too. I get to bite my tounge alot, but one of the unwritten rules of homeschooling is that you have to be nice to everyone.
 
Last edited:
My wife and I are products of the public school system. Both of us felt poorly prepared for college and adult life. We homeschooled our three kid up to high school age. We always felt that we could be better examples and that we had only one chance to do it right. They spent most of their younger years along side of us at our airport business. I have no regrets.

We felt that we didn't have what it took to prepare them for college and to give them more social life in their high school years. We were also going to do what it took to get them into the upper level colleges. We then sent all three to boarding schools with the idea that they would be in the best learning environment and know that they would be expected to do well and to go to college.

The secular homeschool families are far and few here in KS compared to what we had in Fresno and Hayward CA. It was great to network and spend time with a larger group of like-minded people.

One kid is getting ready for grad school (2012), another is entering the 2nd year of college, and youngest is getting ready for college (2012). We accomplished what we planned to do and I feel that my kids are going to be productive members of society. No regrets.

Kevin
 
Your ignorant, broad stroke prejudice is showing....

Dan I'd have to agree with Zaitcev's description. My kids are homeschooled and and attend a 1-day-a-week public outreach program. There are definitely some "Christian Nuts" in the group. I don't think its 2/3rds. These are folks who truly feel that public school is too secular and frown on science education that might conflict with their "scientific" reading of the Bible. Its pretty strange. I'd also point out that there are some "Jewish Nuts" also.

P.S. We are a christian family doing homeschool, not to rail against the government, not because we think public school sucks, not because they don't teach the Bible in school, but just because we want to.
 
Dan I'd have to agree with Zaitcev's description. My kids are homeschooled and and attend a 1-day-a-week public outreach program. There are definitely some "Christian Nuts" in the group. I don't think its 2/3rds. These are folks who truly feel that public school is too secular and frown on science education that might conflict with their "scientific" reading of the Bible. Its pretty strange. I'd also point out that there are some "Jewish Nuts" also.

P.S. We are a christian family doing homeschool, not to rail against the government, not because we think public school sucks, not because they don't teach the Bible in school, but just because we want to.

You damn ignorant bigot!
 
Dan I'd have to agree with Zaitcev's description. My kids are homeschooled and and attend a 1-day-a-week public outreach program. There are definitely some "Christian Nuts" in the group. I don't think its 2/3rds. These are folks who truly feel that public school is too secular and frown on science education that might conflict with their "scientific" reading of the Bible. Its pretty strange. I'd also point out that there are some "Jewish Nuts" also.

P.S. We are a christian family doing homeschool, not to rail against the government, not because we think public school sucks, not because they don't teach the Bible in school, but just because we want to.


We home-schooled for a number of reasons, some of which I have exposed here in earlier posts on other threads. Outright hostility to Christianity while applying kid gloves to every other faith was one factor.

Consider the typical homeschool family profile: Someone must be home home full (or at least most) time, there has to be the commitment and dedication to persevere through bureaucratic blockades, you must endure better-than-you glances from better-off parents, you must be willing to ignore the better minds who tell you you're ruing your child's future, and sometimes ignore your children's sometimes understandable pleas to be "just like everyone else."

Is it any wonder people who fit this profile might also take their beliefs and faith seriously?

I'm not excusing boorish, immature, ill informed, or clannish behavior -- it happens. Get over it. Yet it's not unique to Christians.

My issue is that it seems perfectly acceptable to make broad brush statements such as "Christian-nuts" in a day and age when we have to carefully tip-toe around each and every group and even refer to epithets with single letters ("Don't say the S word!")

Replace "Christian" with other, more sensitive minority terms and see what happens.

Contrary to the Professor's snide remarks, I have direct expereince as well as direct observation of public and private and home schooling in several different roles: full time, state certified classroom teacher, parent of home-schooled children, parent of public school children, home school group instructor, curriculum preparer and reviewer, and long time friends with several other home-school families.
 
Contrary to the Professor's snide remarks, I have direct expereince as well as direct observation of public and private and home schooling in several different roles: full time, state certified classroom teacher, parent of home-schooled children, parent of public school children, home school group instructor, curriculum preparer and reviewer, and long time friends with several other home-school families.

The Professor's snide remarks centered around the fact that while you called the originator of the comments you found offensive ignorant, you are wholly ignorant of the contextual environment in which the comments were made. Rather ironic. You don't live in the Bay Area. For all you know, you would agree that the people in question are indeed "church nuts".

It is nice to hear that you took such stock in the education of your offspring, that you have such expansive local expertise, and that your area is devoid of anyone you would consider a religious zealot.
 
Is it any wonder people who fit this profile might also take their beliefs and faith seriously?

I'm not excusing boorish, immature, ill informed, or clannish behavior -- it happens. Get over it. Yet it's not unique to Christians.

My issue is that it seems perfectly acceptable to make broad brush statements such as "Christian-nuts" in a day and age when we have to carefully tip-toe around each and every group and even refer to epithets with single letters ("Don't say the S word!")

Replace "Christian" with other, more sensitive minority terms and see what happens.

OK, I'm with you on this. I'm perfectly willing to call out the other "Nuts" in our homeschool groups.

There are some folks who are using homeschooling as a way to shelter/incarcerate their children so that they are not exposed to any opposing views which could lead to --SHUDDER-- independent thought. Fortunately for us, those folks are so averse to the establishment that they won't send their kids to a 1-day-a-week public program. So, my kids aren't exposed to that kid of bigotry.
 
OK, I'm with you on this. I'm perfectly willing to call out the other "Nuts" in our homeschool groups.

There are some folks who are using homeschooling as a way to shelter/incarcerate their children so that they are not exposed to any opposing views which could lead to --SHUDDER-- independent thought. Fortunately for us, those folks are so averse to the establishment that they won't send their kids to a 1-day-a-week public program. So, my kids aren't exposed to that kid of bigotry.

That's the price of freedom.

Oh -- and kids eventually grow up and are exposed to all sorts of things, sheltered or not. The real question is when should this exposure occur?

I love all these lofty statements about "socialization."

Yeah, right, sure... :rolleyes2:

Admit it -- most of us shook the dust off our feet after HS. We won't do commerce with, or pee-on-them-if-they-were-on-fire half of our school peers.

:no:

Why don't the Amish get scrutinized for their educational approach? After all, they cease education at 6th grade, focus on reading (German and then English), basic arithmetic, and basic writing, and are confined to their own culture and concerns. "Independent thought" is not a highlight of an Amish education. Why are we ok with that?

They're quaint and are good for the tourist trade?
 
I love all these lofty statements about "socialization."

Yeah, right, sure... :rolleyes2:
From personal experience I think socialization is important. I had a stay-at-home mother until I went to school and she went back to work. I'm not sure that my parents made much effort in getting me to interact with other kids before that. I only remember that going to school and dealing with other kids was a huge adjustment when I would rather be off by myself. I can only imagine if I had been somewhat isolated from the real word until an older age. I went to a big suburban pubic school system and a big state university and I'm glad that I got the exposure to different kinds of religions, lifestyles and opinions at a young age. I also learned to deal with being somewhat "different" from others which has been an advantage to me as an adult. I also think my education was equivalent to people I know who went to private or parochial schools. Even today I know some wealthy parents who send their kids to public school even though they could afford private school.
 
I did the "unschool" thing.

For background... my parents are both university educated. Their parents were all not only university educated but in the education field (three teachers and a school principle). My father was an engineer until he retired. My mother was a graphics artist before she left the workforce. They were not religious...well, they were married in a church, but it was a Unitarian Universalist church.

In the early 80s my mother had her first run-in with cancer. Surgery and radiation, followed 4 years later by another surgery and neutron beam therapy. It was of the "you have six months to live" variety. So from the time I was about 5 they were both totally stressed out, at times incapacitated for extended periods, throwing what little money they had left at experimental treatments that cost $$$,$$$. Some time after that my father had a run-in with Cancer of his own. "Stressful."

I started out in public schools. Some time around 3rd grade I was so monumentally bored by them it was killing me. For 4th grade my school put me into an "advanced" class and for each new subject I was top of the class for about two weeks, then bored to tears. Part way through 5th grade I couldn't take any more and I dropped out. My mother actually came to the school and unenrolled me. Gave them a line about how we were going to be traveling or something.

From that point on I was left to set my own curriculum, do my own thing, and learn (or not) at my own pace. My parents were not in great health and my father was working 10+ hours a day to try to pay off medical bills and keep his family afloat, and I had pretty much learned to take care of myself and not burden either of them by that point. About the only "teaching" was when my father would argue (debate) with me...which he did on any subject you can imagine.

I read thousands (no exaggeration) of books including the CRC handbook of chemistry and physics (67th edition or so, cover to cover). I built computers and computer components (learned to read a schematic at about 10 and was wire wrapping complex boards that did real world things, like provide a RAM emulator for ROMs for another device so I could side load machine code into someone else's hardware by about 13). I wrote and sold commercial software. At 15 I was splitting time between C++ development as a consultant and walking over to the public library where I would sit and read 1 or 2 books in a day. At 17 I started putting myself through college (never applied for any financial aid, parents had no money, etc) with consulting work. I was 18 when I signed the mortgage papers on my house. I hit a 6 figure income before age 30 and have done a lot of cool things along the way. I'm now a manager with a pretty decently sized (publicly traded, 30+ years old, and continuously profitable even through this past down-turn) tech company.

I'm not exceptionally intelligent and I had absolutely no socioeconomic advantage to leverage but I've done OK. I honestly believe that one of the few advantages I've enjoyed in life is that I did not go through the full 12+ years of American public schools.

And, just to reiterate, it has nothing to do with religion. My only exposure to religion from my parents was my father challenging me with Pascal's Wager when I was 9 or 10 (when I started declaring myself an Atheist), but he was doing that just to see how I would respond.

Socialization is important...but there are plenty of isolated kids in American Public schools. Proximity to others does not guarantee social interaction.
 
Replace "Christian" with other, more sensitive minority terms and see what happens.
I'm sorry, Dan, but I relayed the FACTS: the homeschooling community in that specific time and place was heavily dominated by Christian nuts. There were no Muslim nuts and gay nuts at all. I cannot replace "Christian" with anything else in that description because then the statement would become FALSE. I am going to leave it as an excercise to your critical thinking as to why gay nuts or Muslim nuts did not homeschool in any significant numbers. Also, way to troll. -- Pete
 
I'm sorry, Dan, but I relayed the FACTS: the homeschooling community in that specific time and place was heavily dominated by Christian nuts. There were no Muslim nuts and gay nuts at all. I cannot replace "Christian" with anything else in that description because then the statement would become FALSE. I am going to leave it as an excercise to your critical thinking as to why gay nuts or Muslim nuts did not homeschool in any significant numbers. Also, way to troll. -- Pete

You are correct!

10 POINTS FOR GRIFFENDOR!!!!!
 
I have 4 kids in the public school system, 1 attends Auburn, 2 in high school and a rising 1st grader. While my boys have all certainly been exposed to my views and beliefs, I have always encouraged them to be independant thinkers. It has served them well. (however, college boy has his hands full with upper level thinkers like....well you know) I know that public school sucks and that is why I have never relied on it (alone) to educate my kids. That is my job as a parent and PS is just another tool in my box. I am a contractor by trade. My kids work with me during the summers. I also require them to have a job during the school year. My kids work, go to school, participate in extra curricular activities and are free thinkers. I believe it is up to parents to prepare their kids to be free thinking, productive adults. Not public schools or indoctrinating higher ed types.
 
i'm just a public school slacker. public high school public university. my uncle is home schooling his kids, or more accurately my aunt is homeschooling their kids, up until high school where they go to the local country school district. class size is ~25 per grade I think there. They don't like the "big" school district that I went to where there are about 90 kids per grade lol.
 
Back
Top