[NA] mid-size hatch/suv?

[GeorgeC]

• Honda CR-V
• Toyota RAV4
• Subaru Forester
• Subaru Impreza Outback Sport
• Ford Focus hatchback
• Hyundai Elantra Touring

Discuss.

 

[EdFred]

NOTA.

Get a truck.

 

[tonycondon]

Leah has a 98 Impreza Outback Sport. We really like it.

 

[dell30rb]

You should take a look at the 2011 chevy equinox. Inexpensive, tons of room. Has more interior room than my 2001 grand cherokee limited. The interior / exterior and overall quality is excellent. It handles very well, light steering feel and strong brakes. Fuel econ is ridiculously good. Only downside is that its pretty slow

 

[Bob Noel]

• Honda CR-V
• Toyota RAV4
• Subaru Forester
• Subaru Impreza Outback Sport
• Ford Focus hatchback
• Hyundai Elantra Touring

Discuss.

Is the Escape (Escape Hybrid) too big?

 

[Everskyward]

I have a 2003 Subaru Legacy Outback which I like. One of these days I'll replace it with something new. I'm thinking about the Forester or the Outback Sport because they are shorter and I don't really need the length of the car I have now.

 

[GeorgeC]

Yeah, we're looking for something shorter and with better mileage than our current ride, so the Equinox and Escape are both out.

Manual transmission is preferred, so that would downweight the CR-V and RAV4. The CR-V felt plasticy and underpowered. The RAV-4 was nice but slightly on the large side. Neither of them has great mileage.

Similarly, AWD is mostly overkill for DC, so that would downweight the Subies, but I really liked the way they drove. Their mileage wasn't great, though.

Haven't driven the Ford or Hyundai yet.

 

[Bob Noel]

Yeah, we're looking for something shorter and with better mileage than our current ride, so the Equinox and Escape are both out.

Those other vehicles get better than 30mpg using fuel contiminated with ethanol?

 

[bluee]

VW Touareg hybrid?

 

[GeorgeC]

Those other vehicles get better than 30mpg using fuel contiminated with ethanol?

The Ford claims to get 36 hwy...

 

[GeorgeC]

VW Touareg hybrid?

Beaucoup $$$. Maybe the sportwagen, though.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Those other vehicles get better than 30mpg using fuel contiminated with ethanol?

My 2002 Ford Focus is getting about 30 mpg for me on whatever fuel I happen to buy - almost no freeway driving but also almost no stop and go. A more recent vintage should do better.

(Winter time, slogging through snow storms, different route to work with lots of stop lights - I was down into the low 20's)

 

[Bob Noel]

The Ford claims to get 36 hwy...

ok, but don't forget that fuel contiminated with ethanol doesn't give you the same mpg.

btw - my Mariner Hybrid is interesting. Book is 29mpg highway, 33 city. But I typically see the mpg higher than 29 on highway trips and less than 33 for non-highway. This is real world experience on a now almost 5 year old vehicle with AWD.

another btw - the Focus seats are comfortably high, just a bit lower than the seats in the Mariner/Escape. Shorter/older people can get in/out of the Focus easier than the Escape. As my parents got older I used my father's Focus to drive Mom and Dad around rather than my Mariner.

 

[weilke]

Between the Forrester and the Impreza, I would go with the Impreza. But really ask yourself whether you need AWD. It adds to operating cost (tires, fuel) and has additional parts that can fall off in the long run. I bought my Outback for northern Minnesota winters, in temperate climates I dont really see the need for it.

- The impreza is a compact, not really a midsize.
- Subaru can't make a clutch that lasts.

 

[zaitcev]

I lived with 2006 RAV4.3 for about 4 years, traded it in for a real jeep. It was excellent in every respect as a car, 24 mpg in daily driving for something this big was amazing. It easily swallows a Christmas tree, for example. Sure you can get 36 mpg from a car on a highway, my Neon easily touched that in 1996, but you get it only because of lower weight. However, it has no low gear and that turned out a big problem. The only vehicle in this class that has it is Suzuki Grand Vitara. Trading RAV4 for GV seems a bit too silly though, so I just got Wrangler instead. Mileage? Who cares anymore. It burns less than I spend putzing around the pattern in a Cherokee (Piper, not Jeep).

If I wanted a cheap to buy, cheap to run car in class of RAV4, only in 2011, I would've bough Fit or Cube.

 

[dell30rb]

Yeah, we're looking for something shorter and with better mileage than our current ride, so the Equinox and Escape are both out.

Manual transmission is preferred, so that would downweight the CR-V and RAV4. The CR-V felt plasticy and underpowered. The RAV-4 was nice but slightly on the large side. Neither of them has great mileage.

Similarly, AWD is mostly overkill for DC, so that would downweight the Subies, but I really liked the way they drove. Their mileage wasn't great, though.

Haven't driven the Ford or Hyundai yet.

the equinox claims and gets 32 hwy mpg and around 25 city. Verified by personal use fyi, with ethanol

whats your current ride

 

[AggieMike88]

• Honda CR-V
• Toyota RAV4
• Subaru Forester
• Subaru Impreza Outback Sport
• Ford Focus hatchback
• Hyundai Elantra Touring

Discuss.

If what I have to pay at the insurance salvage auctions ($3500+) to acquire the Rav4 for the auto salvage yard is any indication, then a Rav4 is something that holds is value.

--Mike
Denton County Auto Salvage
Denton, TX

 

[AggieMike88]

My 2002 Ford Focus is getting about 30 mpg for me on whatever fuel I happen to buy - almost no freeway driving but also almost no stop and go. A more recent vintage should do better.

If this has the SOHC version of the engine... do what you can to take good care of it.

I get about 20 requests a month for that motor (its one of the more active) and the average sale is about $1500.00

In contrast, the DOHC engine for that year series of focus I never get calls on and the last one I sold brought only $300 (and it had been here for 12 months before the buyer and I found one another).

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

If this has the SOHC version of the engine... do what you can to take good care of it.

I get about 20 requests a month for that motor (its one of the more active) and the average sale is about $1500.00

In contrast, the DOHC engine for that year series of focus I never get calls on and the last one I sold brought only $300 (and it had been here for 12 months before the buyer and I found one another).

So the bad news is that I have the good motor (DOHC)?

 

[gkainz]

I have a 2003 Subaru Legacy Outback which I like. One of these days I'll replace it with something new. I'm thinking about the Forester or the Outback Sport because they are shorter and I don't really need the length of the car I have now.

But you don't live in Boulder ...

 

[GeorgeC]

whats your current ride

Solara SLE coupe. I don't mind the slushbox in the city, but the 3.3L is overkill (18/27), it's physically large to park, and 2 doors is impractical.

 

[Everskyward]

But you don't live in Boulder ...

Only because it's an hour+ and across town from where I work.

I lived in Arvada a long time ago and I like that northwest quadrant including Boulder but the commute was too much.

 

[GeorgeC]

Drove the Focus and Elantra Touring today.

Elantra Touring: Nice car. WYSIWYG. Good visibility. Good mileage, but slightly underpowered. Plenty of room.

Focus hatchback: Peppy. Great mileage. Decent visibility. The cockpit ergonomics annoy me, mainly due to the overcomplicated menu-driven radio.

They are both fine vehicles, but I think the Elantra Touring would be a better fit due to the amount of cargo space.

 

[weilke]

If you are looking at the Elantra Touring, give the Mazda3 hatchback some consideration. I've had good luck with that brand in the past, only gave it away to make room in the garage. Comes with a 6-speed manual and as little cars go, I found that one to be actual fun to drive.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Beaucoup $$$. Maybe the sportwagen, though.

That's what you want right there. Jetta Sportwagen TDI. Crazy space, good mileage, with plenty of pickup. If you're the adventurous type, a little bit of tuning can boost the MPG up even more.

 

[Anthony]

But you don't live in Boulder ...

Greg, it's the law. Volvos do get a pass there though.

 

[RJM62]

I drive a 2000 Kia Sportage. Gets better than 25 MPG on any gas I put into it, driving mainly in the NYC Metro area.

I love this car, to tell you the truth. It's hard to pin down exactly why other than to say that it just suits me. I bought it on the cheap because some bozo apparently managed to burn out half the electrical system installing an aftermarket radio. At least that's my hunch, because the car had major electrical system problems when I bought it, and I can't come up with any reason to explain them other than the truly horrid radio installation.

But fixing things electrical is something I enjoy and am good at, so I bought the car anyway. I quickly fixed all the electrical problems (including the radio) except for the fuel sender float, which has a bad rheostat (which was unrelated to the rest of the electrical problems). I do have a replacement unit, but I'm waiting for a cool, breezy day to do that job because I have to lie on my belly in the back of the car and open the gas tank to replace it, and that's not a job for humid, 90+ degree weather. Using the trip odometer as a gas gauge works just fine for me until then.

-Rich

 

[GeorgeC]

That's what you want right there. Jetta Sportwagen TDI. Crazy space, good mileage, with plenty of pickup. If you're the adventurous type, a little bit of tuning can boost the MPG up even more.

We presently drive very little (~5k miles/year), so the fuel savings would not justify the marginal cost of the of the diesel amortized over life of the vehicle. That said, I looked at a gas sportwagen yesterday and it appeared to be a perfectly cromulent car. I'll test drive it tonight.

 

[PilotAlan]

Just my opinion, but stay away from GM.
A buddy of mine has two new Chevys, a Silverado and a Tahoe.
The Tahoe has been through two water pumps and an alternator. The Silverado blew the transmission at 6 months, and the dashboard split down the center about a month after the bumper to bumper warranty expired. No help, he either has to live with it or pay to replace it himself ($$$).
No GMs for me.

Have you looked at a Jeep Compass? It's smaller than the old Jeep Cherokee, 23 city/29 highway. Less than $20k

 

[GeorgeC]

Test drove the sportwagen. Really really nice ride, probably my favorite so far. Might have found a winner.

I sort them into three categories by size:

small: focus, impreza outback sport
wagon: elantra touring, sportwagen
suv: crv, rav4, forester

They're all good. To recap, I'd list the shortcomings (according to me, anyway) as follows:

focus: lousy dash
impreza outback sport: low mileage, awd only, lousy clutch
elantra touring: underpowered
sportwagen: questionable reliability
crv: underpowered and plasticy, auto transmission only
rav4: auto transmission only, don't care for the rear-mounted spare
forester: low mileage, awd only, lousy clutch

 

[denverpilot]

I don't think my post came thru while I was walkin' around OSH...

Avoid VW like the plague. Wife's Jetta TDI had $13,500 in repairs done in the first three years under an (extended - thank God we bought it) warranty.

Piece of crap. She's willing to drive it until the wheels fall off or the next $1000+ repair comes along, then it's gone.

 

[GeorgeC]

Yowza. What year, and what was the nature of the repairs? I'd heard that there were reliability issues after they'd relocated a factory, but I assumed they'd been resolved by now.

 

[EdFred]

Just my opinion, but stay away from GM.
A buddy of mine has two new Chevys, a Silverado and a Tahoe.
The Tahoe has been through two water pumps and an alternator. The Silverado blew the transmission at 6 months, and the dashboard split down the center about a month after the bumper to bumper warranty expired. No help, he either has to live with it or pay to replace it himself ($$$).
No GMs for me.

Have you looked at a Jeep Compass? It's smaller than the old Jeep Cherokee, 23 city/29 highway. Less than $20k

4 company vehicles here all GMs, 2 over 300,000 1 over 200,000 another over 100,00

I've owned all GM vehicles (except one) and the only thing I've ever had to do was replace a tranny at about 100,000 on an S-10 ZR2

My Jeep experience is a brand new Cherokee being in the shop 9 times before I hit 28,000 miles at which point the transmission went out and the 4WD would no longer work. The end of any of my association with Jeep was when the regional manager told me to "deal with it" and to "go f--k yourself"

I will NEVER own anything Jeep/Mopar/etc after that.

 

[weilke]

Test drove the sportwagen. Really really nice ride, probably my favorite so far. Might have found a winner.

I have put about 120k miles on my Jetta so far, I bought it strictly for the engine at the time. The VWs assembled south of the border tend to have electrical gremlins. If you are willing to pay $350 for the VAG-com diagnostic tool, you can fix most of them yourself in a couple of minutes. If every check-engine light means a trip to the dealer, your enthusiasm for the car is going to wane quickly.
I also had the joy of a blown transmission ($8,000 part, $11,000 bill) early on. Through sheer luck, VW honored their warranty and all I was out was 3 weeks of a rental car. Other people with the same problem had to resort to litigation to get them to own up to their faulty parts. VW of America does a very poor job of maintaining a trustworthy dealer network and supporting their customers.

So, while I like the ride and the low operating cost, it'll be my last VW.

 

[denverpilot]

Yowza. What year, and what was the nature of the repairs? I'd heard that there were reliability issues after they'd relocated a factory, but I assumed they'd been resolved by now.

The later '04 half-year refresh.

Cracked intake manifold (twice), various absurdly expensive plastic stuff like the windshield washer fluid reservoir cracking ($150 for that one not including labor), failed transmission at less than 100K miles, etc.

The extended warranty company even sent out a fraud-prevention guy on the last failure, they lost so much money on that car. The extension folks had a deal when we bought it. I paid roughly $300 out of pocket, they shelled out roughly $13,500 minus about five or six $100 deductibles. Sweet deal for us other than the down-time and hassle of it being a hangar queen and constantly at the dealership.

Part of that is the exceedingly high prices on parts for anything European. Keep that in mind... Look at parts costs if you're buying something that needs regular repairs.

We'll probably go back to Honda if she wants something small in the future. Her Civic was indestructible. That or something on a full-sized truck frame domestically. Folks bash on little things on U.S. trucks, but replacing a $75 alternator is a couple of hours on a weekend and I can do it myself. Replacing a VW transmission wasn't something I'd tackle in the driveway unless we were dirt-poor broke. Ya know?

 

[AggieMike88]

Part of that is the exceedingly high prices on parts for anything European. Keep that in mind... Look at parts costs if you're buying something that needs regular repairs.

Agreed. An acquaintance was so proud of himself for buying a nice looking BMW 5 series. But burned through most of his saved up cash to do it. 6-months later he was calling me for some expensive parts that he admitted to not having the cash saved up for.

Mike's Law of Car Repair Budgeting is: "The more expensive the original sticker price, the more important it is for you to have a line in your monthly house budget called 'Car Repair Savings'"

Checking Car-Part.com can be a source for what the auto recyclers in your area are asking for on the major items. Only item there is really ask lots of questions since the quality of the business and their practices varies as much as the quality of the part and the pricing.

Alternatively, you can always check in with me and my recycling business.

We'll probably go back to Honda if she wants something small in the future. Her Civic was indestructible. That or something on a full-sized truck frame domestically. Folks bash on little things on U.S. trucks, but replacing a $75 alternator is a couple of hours on a weekend and I can do it myself. Replacing a VW transmission wasn't something I'd tackle in the driveway unless we were dirt-poor broke. Ya know?

I do pretty good selling Civic parts, but mostly because Honda sold a bajillion of them and even the lower failure rate of the main products brings reasonable action on the main parts. Biggest ticket item on Civics is the auto transmission. And more because those owners aren't servicing them as they should be.

--Mike Farlow
Denton County Auto/Truck Recycling
Denton, TX

 

[denverpilot]

I have talked to more than one person who had no idea that automatic transmission fluid needs to be changed along with the filter on a regular basis. (Sigh.) "Oh I just fill it up when it gets low..."

Some of these people were males who tow large heavy things behind their pickup trucks. (Beat head here.)

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

VW of America does a very poor job of maintaining a trustworthy dealer network and supporting their customers.

My family has never had an issue, once they get VWoA involved. Some dealers are terrible for repair work, trying to sell you things you don't need and missing things that absolutely should be done, and some dealers are great. My brother's 08 Jetta 2.0T had a transmission issue (DSG) that while it did take a few trips to the dealer to get it fixed, because some of the dealers didn't know what the problem was, thinking it was normal operation. Once he found one that knew the problem, it was only a matter of getting the part from Germany for the transmission and he had a rental car compliments of VWoA.

 

[AggieMike88]

I have talked to more than one person who had no idea that automatic transmission fluid needs to be changed along with the filter on a regular basis. (Sigh.) "Oh I just fill it up when it gets low..."

Some of these people were males who tow large heavy things behind their pickup trucks. (Beat head here.)

When we sell an auto transmission, we intentionally have removed the old filter and attached a tyvek tag to the pan saying: "Caution: Filter has been removed" and require a new one to be purchased and installed as a condition of warranty.

It continues to be a point of frustration about the number of customers, including licensed shops, who call to invoke the warranty, and when asked to show the receipt for the purchase and installation of the filter respond, "Oh, I was supposed to purchase one?"

 

[weilke]

I have talked to more than one person who had no idea that automatic transmission fluid needs to be changed along with the filter on a regular basis. (Sigh.) "Oh I just fill it up when it gets low..."

The intermediate iteration of the VW autobox ('wet-clutch' DSG) requires a change of the fluid every 40k miles. The fluid itself is known as 'liquid gold' which is a reflection of its color and price. If done right (including filter change which requires removal of the battery tray and some wiring harnesses ) it's a $350 job. To make things easier, VW screwed up the maintenance schedule that came with the car and listed the fluid change at 100k .