[NA]Ext HDD[NA]

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
20,323
Location
west Texas
Display Name

Display name:
Dave Taylor
Have run the 500gb HDD to its capacity as a backup storage device.
Looking at a new - larger, of course - ehd.
I see 4TB drives. Is that size pushing the capacity of the technology to the point of increased failures?
What about the names. Buffalo Technologies, BUS link, G-Tech, Micronet. Any of those dependable?
For these prices, should I just go with Mozy or some other online bu?
 
what about these 'interface' specs, I don't understand what they mean or what I need.
Interface
USB 2.0 / eSATA (2)
USB 2.0 / IEEE 1394a / 1394b / eSATA (3)
USB 3.0 (1)
 
Have run the 500gb HDD to its capacity as a backup storage device.
Looking at a new - larger, of course - ehd.
I see 4TB drives. Is that size pushing the capacity of the technology to the point of increased failures?
What about the names. Buffalo Technologies, BUS link, G-Tech, Micronet. Any of those dependable?
For these prices, should I just go with Mozy or some other online bu?

Well, how much space do you actually need?

AFAIK, there are no single 4TB drives available. Most of what you linked to are RAID or NAS systems, which have two 2TB drives inside linked together. Probably overkill for you and quality is very hit or miss with those.

There are 3TB single drives available from the usual suspects (Seagate, Western Digital), but they're pretty new, so I'm not sure what to tell you about their reliability.
 
what about these 'interface' specs, I don't understand what they mean or what I need.
Interface
USB 2.0 / eSATA (2)
USB 2.0 / IEEE 1394a / 1394b / eSATA (3)
USB 3.0 (1)

Dave,

USB 2.0 is the current USB standard It's probably what you already use to connect your current external HD to your PC.

USB 3.0 is the next step up in speed from that, and is pretty new.

IEEE 1394a is Firewire 400, as in 400 Mbps speed. Commonly found on Macs and on Sony PCs under some other name that escapes me right now.

IEEE 1394b is the faster Firewire 800. Found on the newest Macs.

eSATA is just an external connector form for the SATA (Serial ATA) interface found on hard drives. It's usually written as SATA II (3.0 Gbps interface) and SATA III (6 Gbps). These usually need an extra PC add-in card to provide this interface for highest external HD performance.
 
Rich, thanks - maybe I will go with a couple of 2tb drives
about those specs, I suppose my Toshiba Tecra laptop M8 is USB 2.0, not sure where to check. Maybe I should find an ehd with USB 3.0 as this one is 3yrs old and might be time to upgrade soon.

How does this purchase compare to online backups?
 
Rich, thanks - maybe I will go with a couple of 2tb drives
about those specs, I suppose my Toshiba Tecra laptop M8 is USB 2.0, not sure where to check. Maybe I should find an ehd with USB 3.0 as this one is 3yrs old and might be time to upgrade soon.

Probably not a bad idea. There doesn't seem to be a price penalty on USB 3.0 hard drives. Note that when you finally get a PC with USB 3.0, you'll need a new "Super speed" USB cable to make use of the faster speed.

How does this purchase compare to online backups?
I'll defer to others on that; I don't use online backups.
 
That is the 10000$ question, isnt it. Not so easy to define the future. I think 2-4tb will prevent anguish for a few years.

Indeed. We all know digital "Stuff" always accumulates to fill any available free hard drive space. ;)
 
Way overkill. WTF are you running? You must be a serious gamer. Nothing wrong with that. Load up dog - everything else is a choke point. My youngest got home on leave (USAF) yesterday. He's such a serious gamer/hardware geek that the lights dim in the neighborhood when he's home. He builds his own desktops. Each video card (2) has their own cooling fan. I think bubble memory is next.

He didn't get that from me!
 
I am reading some come with software! No thanks!
And, licensing restricting use to only one computer!
I want plug and play and to be able to attach to any computer I want.
Not all advertise the situation, how to find a 'blank' harddrive??
 
Have run the 500gb HDD to its capacity as a backup storage device.
Looking at a new - larger, of course - ehd.
I see 4TB drives. Is that size pushing the capacity of the technology to the point of increased failures?
What about the names. Buffalo Technologies, BUS link, G-Tech, Micronet. Any of those dependable?
For these prices, should I just go with Mozy or some other online bu?


This is probably more than you want to spend, but I have a lacie RAID that attaches to my home network. It has 5 1TB drives configured as a RAID 5, with one spare drive. This yields 2.5 TB of available space. Since my home network switches are all gigabit ethernet, the read/write speeds to that network RAID are pretty reasonable.
 
eSATA is just an external connector form for the SATA (Serial ATA) interface found on hard drives. It's usually written as SATA II (3.0 Gbps interface) and SATA III (6 Gbps). These usually need an extra PC add-in card to provide this interface for highest external HD performance.

A good number of "business class" laptops now have eSATA connectors on them. My new work HP machine does, for one. I was surprised.

Also has HDMI output on the back and when in the docking station gains an extra video output for a total of two external monitors and the built-in LCD if you like.

I believe it's also USB 3.0, but not sure.

Not many laptops with card slots anymore either... Except maybe for SD cards to get your photos/video into 'em.
 
If an ehd comes with software on it, can it be wiped clean - formatted & the software removed so it can be used for storage? Or is it somehow protected?
 
Dave,

USB 2.0 is the current USB standard It's probably what you already use to connect your current external HD to your PC.

USB 3.0 is the next step up in speed from that, and is pretty new.

IEEE 1394a is Firewire 400, as in 400 Mbps speed. Commonly found on Macs and on Sony PCs under some other name that escapes me right now.

IEEE 1394b is the faster Firewire 800. Found on the newest Macs.

eSATA is just an external connector form for the SATA (Serial ATA) interface found on hard drives. It's usually written as SATA II (3.0 Gbps interface) and SATA III (6 Gbps). These usually need an extra PC add-in card to provide this interface for highest external HD performance.

eSATA is good, but I am very impressed with USB 3 on my year-old computer. It cut the time necessary to back up 1 TB of data by 2/3. I've got a couple of 2 GB portable drives that I use for backup.

I have heard people like the Synology units (like the DS411+) better than the Drobos.

Synology is good, but I chose the Thecus N4200 for my NAS. In my review, the capabilities of the Thecus were more flexible than Synology, though either will suffice. A bit of a learning curve on the setup, but with 4 enterprise-level drives running Raid 6 it's been flawless.

If an ehd comes with software on it, can it be wiped clean - formatted & the software removed so it can be used for storage? Or is it somehow protected?

Normally you can wipe it clean without any issue. I've been able to do that with every drive I've ever bought. The only time I've had to resort to special software to do the removal was with Launchpad/U3 software on some thumb drives.
 
Normally they don't come with software ON them (though some do) but with a CD. In any case, you can just format the disk, no problem.

It's fairly trivial to buy a 2 TB SATA disk and then an aluminum USB enclosure for it - they more or less just snap together and voila - a 2 TB external disk.
 
A lot of those are NETWORK STORAGE devices. If you want a portable drive to plug directly into the back end of a PC try a PASSPORT. They have amounts up to 2T. You should also check the form factor. You want small (2.5") if you will be traveling with it.
If you are looking specifically at NETWORK STORAGE, make sure you price them with and without drives. Some are enclosures only. Buy your own drives. You might be able to mount your current drive in it but don't depend on that. I have a netgear I got a few years ago and it has special formatting and is not compatible with PCs.
Media takes up lots of room. I can understand filling up a 500G drive. I have four NAS online now plus two portables. You can never have enough copies.
 
I have heard people like the Synology units (like the DS411+) better than the Drobos.

I'm surprised you didn't rec the Cisco NSS322. :D

Still, I have my doubts these are what Dave wants.

I have both a Drobo and an NSS326 in my lab here. I use the Drobo as a file share and the NSS326 to mirror the Drobo to and then back it all up on tape :)
 
Stay away from Drobo or any other RAID. Today you can get a bare 2TB drive for $89-$109. They format to be 1.8TB (1800GB)

Buy one of these for two drives:
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/esata/Elite-AL_Pro-RAID_Ready_Dual-Drive (with or without the drives)

One of these for one:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...d-keywords=sata+usb+enclosure+macally&x=0&y=0

(I have both)

Enjoy having your backup on a disk YOU CAN READ ANYWHERE.

I may have a few spare enclosures soon. PM me if you can wait and we can make a deal.

(I have 8 drives live on those on my NAS and have 4 more to add. :crazy: )
 
To add fun to the discussion, the guys from BAARF wrote up some good documentation about why RAID5 (3,4,5 actually) are overused and mathematically more prone to errors than a good RAID 1+0 or RAID 0+1 setup.

http://www.miracleas.com/BAARF/BAARF2.html

As far as NAS boxes that use proprietary formats, their creators should be taken out behind the woodshed and beat with a big stick.
 
....SNIP....
As far as NAS boxes that use proprietary formats, their creators should be taken out behind the woodshed and beat with a big stick.
Agreed. I've avoided many PC manufacturers because of bad experiences with proprietary hardware. AND STILL DO out of habit.
But then I have had the SC101 for several years.
 
As far as NAS boxes that use proprietary formats, their creators should be taken out behind the woodshed and beat with a big stick.

While I do agree with the general principle, last time I played with a RAID (which was a REALLY REALLY long time ago) it was kind of a pain still.

Does anybody else have a setup like Drobo where it's as simple as adding a new drive and having it auto-formatted and populated? If not, I guess I can't harp on anybody for buying one, and I'm guessing that's how Drobo manages to exist.

Now, if someone can do what Drobo's doing, as well as Drobo does it, with an open format - Great! But if that's the case, why does Drobo even exist?
 
While I do agree with the general principle, last time I played with a RAID (which was a REALLY REALLY long time ago) it was kind of a pain still.

Does anybody else have a setup like Drobo where it's as simple as adding a new drive and having it auto-formatted and populated? If not, I guess I can't harp on anybody for buying one, and I'm guessing that's how Drobo manages to exist.

Now, if someone can do what Drobo's doing, as well as Drobo does it, with an open format - Great! But if that's the case, why does Drobo even exist?

I haven't played with Drobo. The Thecus box I have does Raid. Replacing a drive can be done hot-swap & it will handle it automagically (may require a click or two in a menu). Initial setup required loggining in and selecting the RAID level in a wizard menu.

It was harder to figure out how to assign permissions to users than it was to set up RAID.
 
I haven't played with Drobo. The Thecus box I have does Raid. Replacing a drive can be done hot-swap & it will handle it automagically (may require a click or two in a menu). Initial setup required loggining in and selecting the RAID level in a wizard menu.

It was harder to figure out how to assign permissions to users than it was to set up RAID.

True... But I look at the Drobo as the "average user" RAID-type solution, where it needs to be completely plug and play or people won't even bother. No menu clicks needed anywhere, no need to learn about RAID levels, etc.
 
I have mixed feelings about Drobo. They really are "simple" for folks, similar to a lot of Apple experiences.

On the other hand, I haven't found any good way to recover data from one if it goes out to lunch. Since it's a NAS and has "RAID", people think their data is safe and don't back it up to something readable when the Drobo dies.

Lots of examples of Drobo data loss on the Net. Also lots of examples of happy folks who didn't lose data when disks failed. The key is that it's NOT a backup solution... you need two Drobos for that, at the amounts of data we're typically talking about here.

Photographers and especially digital video shooters have all sorts of incredibly convoluted processes to get two copies as soon as possible of their raw shoots on disk after which they use one copy as the working copy, and the other goes somewhere else, safe.

Sometimes home users are better off with a couple of really big USB/Firewire/eSATA/whatever drives and a good PLAN for copying one to the other once in a while and keeping one of them safe off-site, away from their home.
 
p.s. TimeMachine + TimeCapsule has similar problems... but I use it. :) Or is that :(

I have already had one data loss event with my Time Capsule but a reformat took care of it. Then waited a few days for Time Machine to put it all back... wirelessly.

It would have gone faster if I dragged all the machines to it and hooked up Gig Ethernet, of course... but I didn't want to do that. I figured I could go without backups for three days of my life. ;)
 
On the other hand, I haven't found any good way to recover data from one if it goes out to lunch. Since it's a NAS and has "RAID", people think their data is safe and don't back it up to something readable when the Drobo dies.

Is there some sort of "key" that only allows the drives to be used in one Drobo? Or can you buy another one if it goes belly-up, stuff your drives into it and get the data back?

The key is that it's NOT a backup solution... you need two Drobos for that, at the amounts of data we're typically talking about here.

Huh??? Only for geeks and decent-sized businesses. And while I'm a geek, I'm just now filling up my 500GB laptop drive. (Well, I guess I do have a 1TB external sitting around here somewhere... But it's only 1/2 full, maybe.) Hell, a measly time capsule can go to 2TB. An entry-level Drobo with four 2TB drives gives you 5.5TB of storage, which is really quite a lot.

What actually annoys me the most about the Drobo is the cost. In the above scenario, even maxed out, the Drobo costs more than the drives to fill it up. If it was half the price I'd already have one.
 
Is there some sort of "key" that only allows the drives to be used in one Drobo? Or can you buy another one if it goes belly-up, stuff your drives into it and get the data back?

Probably. You know any local place to buy a Drobo on a Saturday night when it croaks?

Huh??? Only for geeks and decent-sized businesses. And while I'm a geek, I'm just now filling up my 500GB laptop drive. (Well, I guess I do have a 1TB external sitting around here somewhere... But it's only 1/2 full, maybe.) Hell, a measly time capsule can go to 2TB. An entry-level Drobo with four 2TB drives gives you 5.5TB of storage, which is really quite a lot.

What actually annoys me the most about the Drobo is the cost. In the above scenario, even maxed out, the Drobo costs more than the drives to fill it up. If it was half the price I'd already have one.

Yes, you missed the point... it's a great solution for a growing/resizeable "big drive", but it's not a good place to put your backups. Backups for something that big requires another something that big. And super-proper backups require taking that second "thing" off-site.

And yes, they're overpriced.

For the flexibility, something like FreeNAS in your own hardware is probably smarter, but it won't resize as easily when you add bigger drives later, and it requires a bit more work.

Lots of websites talk about using ZFS stores as a "Drobo-like" system for resizing on the fly, but I've heard some data loss stories from a Tier 4 Sun Engineer about ZFS that would curdle the blood of those using it commercially...

You lose data in a Drobo, you don't pop the drives into something and recover the data. You lose data in ZFS, same thing. Resizeable RAID on the fly is problematic and only the really large/expensive commercial SAN systems really do it right. Not something consumer-priced though. And most of those also use proprietary formats.

There's not a really great solution for "can be read by any computer, is huge, and is cheap" right now for the home market. I believe there are some two or four disk home NAS devices that can be flashed/hacked to run Linux natively and then software RAIDed, which in a pinch those disks could be stuffed in any Linux box and read from, if you knew what you were doing. But that's not very user-friendly.

So stuff like the Drobo is about as good as it gets right now. But you just have to be aware that the thing can go belly up and leave all the data on it unreadable or just plain gone... and most people aren't buying two for redundancy.

There's quite a number of horror stories even right on Drobo's website where they reply politely in their forums and say, "Here's some 3rd party raw disk tools... good luck finding your data."

Been tinkering with the Amazon Cloud computing and storage lately -- they did have a fairly big publicized outage recently -- but in general, that might be an interesting way to go, big disks here at home, and anything important could go not only to their cloud storage but if one were ultra-paranoid, one could set up a cloud-based Linux server to rdiff-backup or similar into using an encrypted filesystem... still thinking about it.
 
While I do agree with the general principle, last time I played with a RAID (which was a REALLY REALLY long time ago) it was kind of a pain still.

Does anybody else have a setup like Drobo where it's as simple as adding a new drive and having it auto-formatted and populated? If not, I guess I can't harp on anybody for buying one, and I'm guessing that's how Drobo manages to exist.

Now, if someone can do what Drobo's doing, as well as Drobo does it, with an open format - Great! But if that's the case, why does Drobo even exist?
You mean like the Drobo just plain refusing to show the storage and the tech support response being "Huh? Oh, well. It's gone."? Read the early reviews.

On my NAS I can pop out a disk and read it on any Mac or Linux platform.

After getting burned twice (NVidia Windows-only-weird-RAID and Time Capsule, which I did open up and read eventually) my data will always be where I can get to it.
 
Huh??? Only for geeks and decent-sized businesses. And while I'm a geek, I'm just now filling up my 500GB laptop drive. (Well, I guess I do have a 1TB external sitting around here somewhere... But it's only 1/2 full, maybe.)

I do photo work. I shoot in RAW and I scan in TIF.

'nuff said.
 
Probably. You know any local place to buy a Drobo on a Saturday night when it croaks?

No, but I can probably have a new one on Tuesday morning... And if that'll work to get the data back, that's OK. I can live without a backup for three days, like you did. ;)

Yes, you missed the point... it's a great solution for a growing/resizeable "big drive", but it's not a good place to put your backups. Backups for something that big requires another something that big. And super-proper backups require taking that second "thing" off-site.

Oh, I see. I was thinking of the Drobo as the backup to the computer, NOT using the Drobo as regular storage.
 
Back
Top