[NA]Electric extension cord-nothing to do with flying[NA]

[Let'sgoflying!]

well I searched everywhere so I thought I would come here, where I get all my answers:
I need a 4-wire 16awg extension cord. I bought a winch to pull my plane into the hangar and need to extend the switch cord.
I had hoped it would be a three-wire but they have a huge capacitor in the switch and it gets powered up when the cable is letting out. I suppose it is to help overcome stiction, but it caught me by surprise.
I suppose I could install a simple on off switch at the motor for the capacitor, and flip it on before each use and then off when done, but I figured it wouldn't be too hard to find a 75' extension cord with 4 wires.
Thanks.

 

[SCCutler]

well I searched everywhere so I thought I would come here, where I get all my answers:
I need a 4-wire 16awg extension cord. I bought a winch to pull my plane into the hangar and need to extend the switch cord.
I had hoped it would be a three-wire but they have a huge capacitor in the switch and it gets powered up when the cable is letting out. I suppose it is to help overcome stiction, but it caught me by surprise.
I suppose I could install a simple on off switch at the motor for the capacitor, and flip it on before each use and then off when done, but I figured it wouldn't be too hard to find a 75' extension cord with 4 wires.
Thanks.

Dave:

You are darned right it won't be hard to find; you'll find it as soon as you build it!

Joking aside, if you can send along details of the connectors on both ends, I'll check with one of my several electrical distributor clients.

/s/

 

[tonycondon]

Dave,
the reason you cant find it is because you are in Marfa TX, 75 miles from the nearest stop light, where yesterdays USA Today arrives tommorow, 150 miles from the nearest Wal Mart

Man I miss that place.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Tony! Actually Ive been calling all around the country including Chicago today.
You are right about the description of the area, without electronic communications I would be living like the Amish.
Spike, no terminals needed, just the wire. I am looking for prices, if outlandish I will come up with something else. Thanks!

 

[tonycondon]

Oh yeah, my other favorite part about marfa, besides 500 FPM thermals in march...
Two Radio Stations, one AM, one FM.
No Cell Reception
No TV reception
Internet? Sure, go to the library.

Burt Compton liked to kid us at the SSA Convention in Arlington that he had to think real hard if Green meant stop or go at the light

 

[Richard]

4 wire 16 ga, never heard of it. At 75' aren't you worried about the IR drop?

 

[wsuffa]

Dave, replace the switch at the motor with a relay. The capacitor won't work right at the end of a long cord.

Then you can run low current through the wire and use a cheap extension cord.

Relays $5-10 +/-, readily available at Grainger or a local electical supply store.

 

[gismo]

Dave, replace the switch at the motor with a relay. The capacitor won't work right at the end of a long cord.

Then you can run low current through the wire and use a cheap extension cord.

Relays $5-10 +/-, readily available at Grainger or a local electical supply store.

Bill's right, replace the switch with a relay in a box and control the relay with your switch. Better yet use a garage door opener radio control to operate the relay and you won't need any wires! For that method you'll need a 24 volt relay and a transformer for the relay and receiver. A wall wart would do for that.

One comment in your post has me confused: "it gets powered up when the cable is letting out". Does this winch motor run both ways (reversing)? If so do you need to power it out remotely as well as in? Normally the capacitor on a motor is either used for either direction of rotation and sometimes it's switched out by an RPM controlled switch in the motor or by a current sensing relay. I am concerned that you have something more complictated than a simple switch.

BTW if you really want to put your switch on the end of a four wire cord (and if none of those wires is a safety ground you'd better go with a five wire cord) you can buy the wire from several online vendors. Anixter wire is a popular one (www.anixter.com). For a much better price, you might look for a discount/surplus electronic/electrical supply.

 

[gkainz]

"Three strands of barbed wire and one grid of chicken wire outta do ya, Dave..."

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Ok I'll look into the relay idea.
I was trying to keep it simple and just replace the cord with longer. I didn't calculate the voltage drop over 75' using the original gauge (18), I just upped it to 16.
Sorry no remotes for me, I am trying to get away from battery dependancy!
Lance I am no pro at reading wiring diagrams but I traced it out and it seems like the cap only gets power when the winch is dropping something, ie the cable is letting out. No power to the cap when it is picking something up. I guess in my mind I was imagining an EE providing max power to charge the cap. when min power was required by the motor.....so as to have a fully loaded capacitor ready when the winch started lifting?

 

[SJP]

Ok I'll look into the relay idea.
I was trying to keep it simple and just replace the cord with longer. I didn't calculate the voltage drop over 75' using the original gauge (18), I just upped it to 16.
Sorry no remotes for me, I am trying to get away from battery dependancy!
Lance I am no pro at reading wiring diagrams but I traced it out and it seems like the cap only gets power when the winch is dropping something, ie the cable is letting out. No power to the cap when it is picking something up. I guess in my mind I was imagining an EE providing max power to charge the cap. when min power was required by the motor.....so as to have a fully loaded capacitor ready when the winch started lifting?

Leave the capacitor at the Winch, extend the two wires connected to the switch itself. After all, the switch is really the only thing that you need to have in your hand...

We did the same sort of thing on our winch - have a 50' extension cord, with a push-and-hold switch that will plug into a socket we added to the winch itself - if you have a buddy, he can stay at the winch and operate, or you plug in the extension, and extend the switch as far as you need.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Leave the capacitor at the Winch, extend the two wires connected to the switch itself.

OK here is a two-wine/3-day memory of the wiring, and a suggestion of what I might try next.
I am thinking of doing what you say Stephen.
Only diff. I can see is the cap will be powered up a few moments before I walk out to the airplane and start the motor up.
Good Plan or Smoking Hole?

 

[Henning]

well I searched everywhere so I thought I would come here, where I get all my answers:
I need a 4-wire 16awg extension cord. I bought a winch to pull my plane into the hangar and need to extend the switch cord.
I had hoped it would be a three-wire but they have a huge capacitor in the switch and it gets powered up when the cable is letting out. I suppose it is to help overcome stiction, but it caught me by surprise.
I suppose I could install a simple on off switch at the motor for the capacitor, and flip it on before each use and then off when done, but I figured it wouldn't be too hard to find a 75' extension cord with 4 wires.
Thanks.

If you just need the cable, here. They also have it in 14/4 as well.

 

[gismo]

Ok I'll look into the relay idea.
I was trying to keep it simple and just replace the cord with longer. I didn't calculate the voltage drop over 75' using the original gauge (18), I just upped it to 16.
Sorry no remotes for me, I am trying to get away from battery dependancy!
Lance I am no pro at reading wiring diagrams but I traced it out and it seems like the cap only gets power when the winch is dropping something, ie the cable is letting out. No power to the cap when it is picking something up. I guess in my mind I was imagining an EE providing max power to charge the cap. when min power was required by the motor.....so as to have a fully loaded capacitor ready when the winch started lifting?

OK nix the remote (personally I'd rather deal with an annual battery replacement than dragging the cord around) but your idea about the capacitor has to be wrong. Normally a capacitor is used to create a phase lag in one of two windings on a motor giving the rotating magnetic field within a "sense of direction". Do you need the winch motor to be reversible and is it set up that way now?

Here's a common setup: (ignore the dots. The 'M's are the motor windings.


_MMMMM_________
|.................|..........| Fwd
|..............._|_......... \_________
|.......O......___..........................|
| ................|..........| Rev..........|
|_MMMMM__|_____|................ |
|..............................................|
|..............................................|_________
|__________________________________ ] < power

 

[Don Jones]

OK here is a two-wine/3-day memory of the wiring, and a suggestion of what I might try next.
I am thinking of doing what you say Stephen.
Only diff. I can see is the cap will be powered up a few moments before I walk out to the airplane and start the motor up.
Good Plan or Smoking Hole?

Dave,
Your first (un-modified) diagram shows the capacitor connected between the black and white wires on both of the switch positions. I would think it could be hardwired in on the motor end if that is the case.
If it is connected that way I can't imagine why they would switch it.

I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night so take it with a grain of salt. (Does 11 days at Days Inn count?)

Don

 

[SJP]

OK nix the remote (personally I'd rather deal with an annual battery replacement than dragging the cord around) but your idea about the capacitor has to be wrong. Normally a capacitor is used to create a phase lag in one of two windings on a motor giving the rotating magnetic field within a "sense of direction". Do you need the winch motor to be reversible and is it set up that way now?

Here's a common setup: (ignore the dots. The 'M's are the motor windings.


_MMMMM___________
| ................ | ....... | Fwd
| ..............._|_ ....... \_________
| ....O .......___ ........................|
| ............... | .........| Rev ....... |
|_MMMMM___|______| ............. |
| ............................................|
| ............................................|_____
|__________________________________ ] < power

Thats my guess of why it's there. You put them in to stop arcing too - but I would expect to see two given that you have two sets of poles to switch.


Who makes the winch ? They may have some more detail available on extending the cord, but at the moment, the 4 cable cord is probably the easiest method. The capacitance of the cable itself probably wouldn't affect the charge time of the capacitor enough to make any difference if it is being used to influence phase, and if it is being used to damp arcing, would actually improve the situation

 

[Bill M.]

Just a point of interest. The start capacitor doesn't actually charge up and give the motor a "boost". It changes the phase angle between the amperage and voltage. In an inductive load, particularly a motor, the high inductive reactance causes the voltage to lead the amperage. The capacitor corrects this imbalance and brings the power factor back close to "1".
A run capacitor does the same thing only stays in the circuit all the time.
The start capacitor is energized only during start, and then either amperage (current relay) or Back EMF (potential relay) drops it out of the system via a relay. Some motors also have a centrifugal switch which drops out the start relay when 80% of the speed is attained.
Bill

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

outcome:
I did as I originally suggested today and it works like it should.
I might install a lo wattage lamp in series with the capacitor....Im afraid I will forget to turn it off.
no one suggest a checklist for this, PLEASE!

 

[Al P]

Dave,
I just bought 16/4 SO cable last week. Try McMaster - Carr at www.mcmaster.com or 1-732-329-3200.
Part # 7422K23. Cost is .57/ft under 250' and they ship same day.
Al

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I will keep that link for future use, I always forget about MMC

 

[gismo]

OK here is a two-wine/3-day memory of the wiring, and a suggestion of what I might try next.
I am thinking of doing what you say Stephen.
Only diff. I can see is the cap will be powered up a few moments before I walk out to the airplane and start the motor up.
Good Plan or Smoking Hole?

Your diagram makes no sense WRT the second pole of the switch (on the left). Is the black wire coming to the center of the right switch only connected to the power input or is it also connected to something in the motor? Also is there a small relay inside the motor (or wiring box on the motor)? If your diagram is correct (and the black lead only goes to the power source) you could just wire the capacitor in permanently with no switch at all and it would work exactly the same way.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Me either Lance, but I retraced everything when I was back last night and that's exactly how it runs!
This one works so well I may do another for the back other side of the hangar and one for a friend. If so, I may open the new ones up and scrutinize under load, see if the cap somehow gets power in both switch positions...something just doesn't add up with the wiring but I swear to ya that is how it was done....
I almost took pics last night for you, will do if I tackle others.
At the stage I was last night, I just wanted to make sure it ran and then bop outta there which I did.

 

[gismo]

Me either Lance, but I retraced everything when I was back last night and that's exactly how it runs!
This one works so well I may do another for the back other side of the hangar and one for a friend. If so, I may open the new ones up and scrutinize under load, see if the cap somehow gets power in both switch positions...something just doesn't add up with the wiring but I swear to ya that is how it was done....
I almost took pics last night for you, will do if I tackle others.
At the stage I was last night, I just wanted to make sure it ran and then bop outta there which I did.

Can you confirm that the black wire to the switch doesn't connect to anything else besides the incoming power and that the incoming power similarly doesn't go anywhere else (like to the motor)?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Can you confirm that the black wire to the switch doesn't connect to anything else besides the incoming power and that the incoming power similarly doesn't go anywhere else (like to the motor)?

I will have to look at that part of my drawings next time I go to hangar, maybe this weekend?
Got your curiosity up? (I hate that feeling)

 

[gismo]

Got your curiosity up? (I hate that feeling)

Yep. .

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Not sure it will happen this weekend, I've been up since 2am with what I swear is Dengue or Breakbone Fever. I feel as if someone sledge-hammered every bone in my body and that my intestines have departed my body! Pip,pip -cheer up, eh what?! The harder the flu is, the shorter it lasts!
Crazy but my wife came down with it too.. 2 hours after me. The house sounded like a Wail-atorium with us both moaning in pain a while ago but I have crawled back from the dead just now....I swore I was not going to get it this year, no I didn't get the vaccination.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I rallied this am and went to finish the cable & hook. I opened the motor jct box cover and took a pic but it didn't turn out but the drawing is how the wires run.
Far as I can tell Lance the blk wire only goes directly to the ganged operating switch, see my poor excuse of a schematic attchd.
Anyway it works perfectly. 60bucks from Harbor Freight. Don't those power tows cost like over $500?

 

[gismo]

I rallied this am and went to finish the cable & hook. I opened the motor jct box cover and took a pic but it didn't turn out but the drawing is how the wires run.
Far as I can tell Lance the blk wire only goes directly to the ganged operating switch, see my poor excuse of a schematic attchd.
Anyway it works perfectly. 60bucks from Harbor Freight. Don't those power tows cost like over $500?

That's about what I paid for a used one (from Alan B, thank you again) but new they run 750-1000.

WRT to your wiring, the effect of your connections is the same as I described earlier. You only needed a 3 wire (plus ground) cord plus a single pole switch, and could mount the capacitor at the motor end. In any case you can leave it as you have sketched and it will work fine, although I think I'd move the cap just to keep it out of harm's way. If I had to guess, I'd say whoever wired it originally got confused and made it much more complicated than necessary.