NA Ceramic Tile Floors

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

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May have to help/lead with a CT floor install, not sure if it is concrete or wood. Have never done. Scary.
Send all instructions/tips/pitfalls.
 
CT is not rocket science but is labor intensive. If concrete, no problem, if wood use backer boards first then tile.
For best looks start in the center and work to both sides, for least cutting start at one side and work to the other.
You will need a wet saw for the cuts, can rent them. In the past you could take your cuts to Lowes and they would do it.
Lots of videos and other instructions available.
Good luck.
 
I just had quite a bit of tilework done. They used something cald Durock cement board for the subflooring. This was installed on thinset and screwed into the OSB and the joists with hundreds of drywall type screws. The tiles themselves went on with another layer of thinset.
Decide on the width of your groutlines, they make little plastic 'crosses' to ensure even spacing. The guy started in the closet and tiled out from there.
Get big tiles for a big room. Lay out the tiles first to check whether your walls are square. If they are not, you have to decide where to put the crooked tile line. Ideally that would be in a place that is hidden, e.g. under a row of cabinets.
 
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Pretty much what Ron said. A few add'l thoughts...

  • Floor tile is second only to taping and finishing sheetrock as my least favorite thing to do in construction.
  • If your room is rectangular, doing the math so you have equal cuts all around will look much better than starting with a full tile in one corner and then just dealing with whatever the cuts are on the opposite two walls...unless you're very lucky with room size. If you center everything, make sure you do the math so you have tiles greater than 50% along the walls and not less than. You'll either need to start with a grout joint down the middle or a tile down the middle.
  • Try to avoid having the joint(s) in the backer board line up with the grout joint(s). If they do line up, the grout joint will likely crack because things will still flex. If the backer board joint is centered on a tile everything should remain rigid.
 
Durock is the brand name for a cement board (similar to a gypsum board (drywall) but made of cement). A lot of people use it for floors and walls in wet areas like bathrooms. It's flat, water won't hurt it, and heavy.
 
I've done LOTS of ceramic tile work. I hate DUROCK and the other cement boards. The only thing that can be said postive about it is it's better than green board or regular drywall. But in practice, it is HEAVY, hard to work with, and POROUS which means you must provide some other way to prevent water infiltration. Tile and grout is not WATERPROOF.

So, there are two real options in my opinion. What I really like is the GP Denshield backerboard. This is a waterresistant drywall product with a fiberglass/ceramic facing on it. If you install it as instructed, pretty much like regular drywall only using silicone rather than drywall compound, you get a 100% waterproof, absolutely smooth and stable, backer. It's a lot lighter and easier to work with than cement board.

The other option of late for tiles and some shower enclosers is the Schluter products. The Ditra isolation membrane for floors and the Kerdi for showers is really easy to work with and still superior to cement board. Neither leaks like a sieve like the crap cement board does.
 
I did my bathroom floor a few months ago.
Came out pretty good. Everything in this thread is correct.

It sucks. Bathroom was small and with 12x24 tiles I think maybe 6 were full size.
Wetsaw only. Make sure you think of heights of tile, cement board and thinset so tile matches height of other flooring.

Have fun
 
awesome thanks
with any luck I can foist this one off to someone else!
So, the thinset is used right on the subfloor to level it, then the (brand)-board is applied in the case of a wood subfloor, then the adhesive, then the tile.
What tool to level the thinset?
 
I demo'd my entire basement last spring, removed a few walls, reframed a lot of things, then quit working on it until about the middle of this winter. Spent a lot of time on the drywall and paint phase. I couldn't decide what sort of flooring for quite a long time because I wanted something that looked nice but also wouldn't get absolutely destroyed if some water got on it.

Once I decided I wanted tile I was really tempted to do the install myself, I mean...I did everything else. But the more I started to look at it, the more I started to think I should just hire someone.

I hired a guy that did a friend's house. I had about 400 sq ft to be done and it took him 5 work days to do it, about 7 hours each day. Having now seen all the work it took, I'm damn glad I just hired it out.

Most of the space was going over cement. It was installed with thinset between the cement and tile. Grout next. Then sealed later. Sounds "simple" but it took the installer a lot of hours of a lot of hard work to get it done.

I also had an entryway done that had a wood floor, not sure if it was OSB or plywood. The cement board was screwed directly down (lots of screws) with no thinset between the board and floor. I know that's against the manufacturer's instructions but I did a little Googling and damn near every floor installer skips thinseting and instead does lots of screws.

A picture mid project, looked like it'd never be done:
gF9UJbs.jpg


Done, very happy I went with tile.
vOgylsp.jpg
 

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Read the instructions for the underlayment. Ditra being an impervious plastic, requires unmodified thin set. If you're installing over something that's pervious like wood or cement board, you want modified thinset.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
awesome thanks
with any luck I can foist this one off to someone else!
So, the thinset is used right on the subfloor to level it, then the (brand)-board is applied in the case of a wood subfloor, then the adhesive, then the tile.
What tool to level the thinset?
Click to expand...

If you are talking about leveling the concrete subfloor, there's a self-leveling plaster-like product for that. Just spread it out and leave it to set up. If you're going over wood, if theres's room for another thin layer of plywood under the durock, it'll help make the subfloor that much more rigid. Rigid as possible is good, as any flex in the subfloor will crack your tile over time. I like to mesh tape and mud the joints of he Durock as well for just that reason.
 
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Chip is right, self leveling stuff is easy peasy. Pour it out and it sets up in like 15 minutes.

DITRA comes in two thicknesses. If you're going over a single layer of disoriented strandboard, you want the Ditra XL as the floor is too springy. If you're going over a more substantial subfloor (especially if you're pouring leveling compound) you may consider the normal Ditra which is thinner. Remember that you have the thickness of your underlayment, a layer of thinset, the DITRA, the layer of thinset again and then your tile. If you're going up to a thinner engineered wood or vinyl you may want the thinner underlayment, if you're mating with full thickness wood, the XL will work.

Cement board or the other subsitutes (hardiebacker or denshield) you typically can get away with whatever the thinnest it comes in for floors.
 
flyingron said:
I've done LOTS of ceramic tile work. I hate DUROCK and the other cement boards. The only thing that can be said postive about it is it's better than green board or regular drywall. But in practice, it is HEAVY, hard to work with, and POROUS which means you must provide some other way to prevent water infiltration. Tile and grout is not WATERPROOF.

So, there are two real options in my opinion. What I really like is the GP Denshield backerboard. This is a waterresistant drywall product with a fiberglass/ceramic facing on it. If you install it as instructed, pretty much like regular drywall only using silicone rather than drywall compound, you get a 100% waterproof, absolutely smooth and stable, backer. It's a lot lighter and easier to work with than cement board.

The other option of late for tiles and some shower enclosers is the Schluter products. The Ditra isolation membrane for floors and the Kerdi for showers is really easy to work with and still superior to cement board. Neither leaks like a sieve like the crap cement board does.
Click to expand...

If you're gonna do a shower, you have to put it all over a vinyl membrane or copper$$$ pan. No way you're ever going to seal a backer that'll hold up for 20 years.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
What thickness cement board or Ditra?
Click to expand...
What type of floor will this tile abut, carpet, laminate, hardwood? Figure out how much depth you have to work with once the old floor is removed. example, I removed hardwood ~3/4 thick from my bathroom. Same hardwood in the hallway. I wanted the tiles to be level with existing hall floor. I needed to make up ~3/4". Tiles were ~5/16". Used 1/4 or 5/16" backer board. Planned on thinset (mortar holding tiles down) being about 1/8". There is some adjustability as you can squish or not squish the tiles into the thinset a little here or there.
1) figure out how much depth you have to work with.
2) find tiles that will work in that range
3) select backer product that will work with tile and desired thickness
4) install. and curse. a lot.

Before

263vtbn.jpg



After
2mrzhc5.jpg


Its not a perfect tile job, but decent. Later the rest of the bathroom gets redone.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
If you're gonna do a shower, you have to put it all over a vinyl membrane or copper$$$ pan. No way you're ever going to seal a backer that'll hold up for 20 years.
Click to expand...

That is true, In the old days we used sheet lead (though the last time I bought that was to form weights for my son's soapbox car and he's 33 now). Now you can get plastic stuff that if you glue the seams and drain right, will last a long time. Schluter as mentioned already, makes a waterproof system called KERDI that can form not only the pan but a shower curb if you need one.
 
New fangled stuff. Shower curbs I just use concrete over a steel mesh. Forms are a couple 2x' s or plywood if It needs fancy curves. Y ou just need to be careful not to prick holes in the membrane with the sharp mesh. Dry pack concrete for the sloped shower subfloor.
 
It's new fangled, but works a whole lot better. It actually doesn't end up costing any more in the long run.
 
I've done quite a bit of tile work over the years. It's much easier than you can imagine.

* Get a good tile saw, at least 7". Don't get a $99 4" one.

* If you're going on top of a subfloor (wood) you'll need a backer board. There are 2 basic types, Durock, which is kind of a sheet of concrete, or a fiberboard (which is typically thinner and easier to work with). They require special screws that should be screwed in every 4-6". Tape between the joints. My choice between the two is decided by which one will leave the tile even with the adjoining flooring. If it's carpet it typically doesn't matter and I used the fiberboard. If it's 3/4" hardwood that abuts it, normally Durock will leave the tile the same height.

* I like to use a trowel with 1/4" grooves. Spread the thinset mortar in semi-circle patterns, never straight. Mix the thinset so that it's like pudding.

* Start laying full pieces of tile where your eyes go first, for appearance. ex. If you're tiling a bathroom floor, start putting full pieces of tile at the door and work your way toward the back wall. That way the row that you have to cut isn't the row that people notice first.

* It's not possible to use too many spacers. Keep in mind that they will compress when you put pressure on them so I'll put 2 or 3 between each piece of tile.

* If you're doing a large room use a string to make sure your tile remains straight as you progress. Like building a fence or shingling a roof, you may have to make minor corrections if working with long distances.

* Google images of floor tile to get some different ideas of patterns you can lay the tile.

It really is enjoyable and I like looking at the finished product once done.
 
timwinters said:
Pretty much what Ron said. A few add'l thoughts...

  • Floor tile is second only to taping and finishing sheetrock as my least favorite thing to do in construction.
  • If your room is rectangular, doing the math so you have equal cuts all around will look much better than starting with a full tile in one corner and then just dealing with whatever the cuts are on the opposite two walls...unless you're very lucky with room size. If you center everything, make sure you do the math so you have tiles greater than 50% along the walls and not less than. You'll either need to start with a grout joint down the middle or a tile down the middle.
  • Try to avoid having the joint(s) in the backer board line up with the grout joint(s). If they do line up, the grout joint will likely crack because things will still flex. If the backer board joint is centered on a tile everything should remain rigid.
Click to expand...

^This. Finishing drywall is terrible, and I just finished laying a 6'x6' laundry room floor in our rental house with ceramic tile and that is about the largest space I'd personally do myself. Even with knee pads you still end up sore the next day.
 
Definitely lay out your tile dry first to set up your pattern, know where your cuts are going to be and see how symmetric it'll all end up. Snapping a few strategically located chalk lines can help a lot.
 
Having lived with formed tiled shower pans in the two last houses, I have now gone back to cast iron. Kohler makes really nice ones, much easier to keep clean.
 
weilke said:
Lol. I am sure there are some homes where you can peel them out of the grout.
Click to expand...
Or, the grout over them pops off after a couple years (and after you have sold the house if you are lucky like the guy who used to own my house).
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Or, the grout over them pops off after a couple years (and after you have sold the house if you are lucky like the guy who used to own my house).
Click to expand...

If they were the right size spacers and pressed all the way to the surface you shouldn't have had a problem. You should only have a problem if there was empty space beneath them or if the layer of grout was too thin.

But I'm a cheap bastard and pull mine out anyway to reuse. Rather than put them in the corners I stand them up, spaced between the tiles on each side. But most of the time now when laying floor tile I don't have my corners meet - I offset them much like laying brick.
 
A lot of tile have spacers built in, little tabs that jut out the side. Just butt them up against the tabs on the next tile.
 
flyingron said:
Chip is right, self leveling stuff is easy peasy. Pour it out and it sets up in like 15 minutes.

DITRA comes in two thicknesses. If you're going over a single layer of disoriented strandboard, you want the Ditra XL as the floor is too springy. If you're going over a more substantial subfloor (especially if you're pouring leveling compound) you may consider the normal Ditra which is thinner. Remember that you have the thickness of your underlayment, a layer of thinset, the DITRA, the layer of thinset again and then your tile. If you're going up to a thinner engineered wood or vinyl you may want the thinner underlayment, if you're mating with full thickness wood, the XL will work.

Cement board or the other subsitutes (hardiebacker or denshield) you typically can get away with whatever the thinnest it comes in for floors.
Click to expand...

I am a huge fan of Ditra. It is more expensive than CBU and similar products but significantly faster and easier to work with.

You do not need Ditra XL for installation over OSB, but you do need to ensure that the subfloor (of any kind) meets the required structural specifications. Neither Ditra nor CBU is an acceptable structural reinforcement. If the floor is "springy," that really needs to be fixed correctly before the Ditra or CBU or whatever other backer goes down. Ditra XL is thicker mostly for the purpose of leveling transitions with other flooring.

If you're going over plywood or OSB with Ditra, you need latex modified mortar between the substrate and Ditra. Unmodified typically between Ditra and tile.

To get waterproof Ditra, you need to tape the joints with Kerdi-Band.

Schluter has a very good Ditra guide available here:
DITRA Installation Handbook.pdf

With respect to grout, in areas likely to get dirty, I'd probably opt for a urethane-based grout over traditional cement-based grout.


JKG
 
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