N/A Telephone Help

[bstratt]

Background - we had two regular lines in the house. All phones were on line 1, computer modem and fax on line 2. We decided to try Vonage which has worked great. My original plan was to discontinue line 2, and cancel all services on line 1 except for basic local access in the event of emergencies and switch the fax to line 1. My wife wanted to maintain the line 1 # as our main line phone number so I reversed the above. Transferred our line 1 phone number to Vonage, cancelled line 1 but kept line 2 as basic only.

Problem - fax machine is the only line in the house that can get dial tone and my TIVO as well as alarm system (hard wired) use line 1. I've lost all TIVO services as well as alarm system.

Tried - First, as my phones don't have two line capability, I went to radio shack and picked up two-line splitters. Put them into the jacks and plugged the phone into Line 2 jack - nothing. Second, I then thought MAYBE all the phone jacks in the house don't have two line capability, a stretch but I couldn't figure things out. I had the bright idea of making line 2 into line 1 (also cheaper as I don't need a bunch of splitters). Went outside to the main phone junction box and determined that blue & white were line 1 and orange & white were line 2. I switched the wires on the terminals so the orange & white now connected to the former blue & white terminals and vice versa - tried the phone - nothing. Returned them to former terminals - fax now has dial tone again.

What am I missing? or do I bite the bullet and phone the repair people now?

 

[Brian Austin]

Blue/white SHOULD be line 1 and orange/white SHOULD be line 2 in a perfect world.

Take off the wall plate for the jacks. It's possible that line 2 wasn't even connected at some jacks. Check the blue/white and orange/white connections. Your orange/white to line 1 won't work, though, without re-wiring the jacks. Line 1 is the middle pair (2/3 on RJ-11 (4-wire) and (3/4 on RJ-12 (6-wire) jacks) and line 2 is the pair OUTSIDE that pair (1/4 on RJ-11, 2/5 on RJ-12).

Most of the 6-wire systems use a loop-type circuit where the same 3-pair (6-wire) cable is routed to each jack then looped back up the wall to the next jack. Sometimes they won't hook up Line 2, though, if you don't need it, especially if this was a change after the house was built (ie you had someone come out and do it for you).

 

[bstratt]

Brian, this was a new home that was totally prewired by USNet for surround sound, cable, speakers in the ceilings, etc. (got a massive big box on the wall in the basement). My wall jacks are designated "CAT 5" (whatever that means) and all eight wires are connected to each jack. I verified in the box in the basement that all eight wires are connected "IN" and every "OUT" has all eight wires connected. What I really don't understand is that I'm using a splitter in the office so the fax accesses Line 2 but the splitter won't work in any other room.

In the Phone Company junction box outside the house I found their incoming wires. I took the orange and white incoming wires (phone company's) for Line 2 (verified by losing dial tone on the fax when disconnected) and connected them to the blue and white wires coming into the house. I don't understand why you say that wouldn't work. Can you explain?

 

[Brian Austin]

Ah, different issue then. The 6-wire loop was an older style of wiring.

Do you have a distribution terminal or something somewhere? It's probably a 66 block, which is a white block, about 8 inches tall and three inches wide that mounts to a wall. That's the point where the incoming phone signal gets distributed to the various ports in your house.

FYI, if you do, you'll need special tools to work on this. The 66 block takes a punch tool to insert wires into special connectors.

I just re-read your post. If you're not using a 66 block, it sounds like you might have a telephone switch of some sort. You might just want to call someone at this point.

 

[bstratt]

That block is within that big box. I have one input 8 terminal connecter, and 10 output 8 terminal connectors in there. I also have all my CATV connections in there. It is called a "US techgate server", don't know why they call it a server as there's no computer. I didn't have the punch but I did have small jeweller's screwdirvers which worked as well. I've tried all combination of wires that I could think might work but nothing did.

I guess I'll just have to open the wallet and call for service although it bugs me because it shouldn't be this hard.

 

[Brian Austin]

I guess I'll just have to open the wallet and call for service although it bugs me because it shouldn't be this hard.

It's actually not that hard but requires some knowledge that is simply too much to pass on in this environment. Sorry.

 

[gismo]

Barry if I read your first post correctly, what ou tried should have worked assuming you only had two lines coming into the house in the first place. As Brian pointed out the blue/white pair is normally line 1 and the orange/white line 2. Since line 1 used to go to all jacks in the house, whatever you connect to the blue white pair at the network interface ought to go to all those same places (the line 1 pair on each jack).

So, here's the possibilities as I see them:

1> When you connected the blue/white pair to line 2 at the network interface you made a misconnection (1 or 2 wires connected to the wrong terminal)

2> Same as #1 but you made a bad connection (1 or 2 wires not making contact at all).

3> The original line 1 was never connected to the blue/white pair and there was some other path from that phone company line to your phone jacks

4> Someone disconnected the blue/white pair you found attached to the line one position in the network interface on the other end possibly when they were installing Vonage.

#4 is the most likely in my mind unless you were the one who hooked up the Vonage equipment. It's common to run the phone port on the Vonage box to the wiring that already goes to all the phone jacks after breaking the connection to the landline. Perhaps your installer went as far as unhooking the landline but never got around to (or screwed up) making the connection from the Vonage box to line 1 inside your house.

You can check for #1 and #2 by carefully inspecting the connection you made at the network interface visually. Keep in mind that the white side of any pair is fairly easy to mis-identify, especially if the light is bad.

This should be pretty easy to resolve simply by following the wires from the network interface into the house and checking the connections at that end.

 

[Brian Austin]

You can check for #1 and #2 by carefully inspecting the connection you made at the network interface visually. Keep in mind that the white side of any pair is fairly easy to mis-identify, especially if the light is bad.

This should be pretty easy to resolve simply by following the wires from the network interface into the house and checking the connections at that end.

I think you missed something, Lance. This isn't a direct wire system but a crossconnect wiring system. Looking at wires on one end vs another isn't going to matter without paying attention to how they're connected in the middle. And following crossconnects in a 66 block can be a pain without a toner/probe.

 

[mikea]

You could reverse the connection process by disconnecting whatever line you want to be on the Vonage router at entry box, and then plugging the feed for Vonage into a jack to feed all the phones.

Barry, I can recommend a fellow pilot who is retired phone tech with his own telephone business. PM me for the number.

*I* can also do it, but I retired years ago. |-{)

One thing that tripped me up is the DSL filters don't pass th3 second pair lines. I had to rig up a series of splitters and an extra line cord to get Jann's two line phone connected. It was ugly and an insult to my former professional standards but I didn't have any choice.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Man... It's only been about 3 1/2 years since I sold my business, but this thread is reminding me just how much I've forgotten. I used to have all this crazy stuff memorized. White-orange, orange, white-green, blue, white-blue, green, white-brown, brown. How'd I do? (Ethernet... Tho I think it's called TIA-something)

Barry, your problem almost makes me want to solve it! Unfortunately, I don't have my punch tools and testing equipment any more. I would be interested to see how exactly they wired it all!

 

[bstratt]

Thx guys. I still don't understand why my switch outside didn't work. Maybe I'll go back and try it again this afternoon.

I did finally get the Radio Shack two line splitters to work. I went back and examined all the lines and found I hadn't seated the white/orange line properly in the block. A mighty push with my jeweller's screwdriver punch, and one small electrical shock later, it seated and I had dial tone.

Doing this stuff is like having a sore tooth, you know you have to leave it alone but you just can't. I get frustrated and quit, spend hours mulling it over and telling myself it can't be that hard, and find myself getting back into it again.

 

[Brian Austin]

Man... It's only been about 3 1/2 years since I sold my business, but this thread is reminding me just how much I've forgotten. I used to have all this crazy stuff memorized. White-orange, orange, white-green, blue, white-blue, green, white-brown, brown. How'd I do? (Ethernet... Tho I think it's called TIA-something)

That's EIA/TIA 568B wiring for termination plugs. Many phones use it now, too, and just use the middle (blue/white) pairs.

 

[mikea]

That's EIA/TIA 568B wiring for termination plugs. Many phones use it now, too, and just use the middle (blue/white) pairs.

<pedant mode>I think it was a (AT&T/the old Ma bell -> Bell Labs) - > USOC standard that became an EIA/TIA standard.< / pendant mode>

 

[SCCutler]

<pedant mode>I think it was a (AT&T/the old Ma bell -> Bell Labs) - > USOC standard that became an EIA/TIA standard.< / pendant mode>

I think we have "AT&T/the old Ma bell -> Bell Labs" to thank for the fact that we have a stunningly robust telecom infrastructure.

Sounds like Barry got it done, but think how nice it would have been for him, if he'd had (1) a tone-generator, and (2) a punch tool.

It always amazes me when telco guys come to hook up a new line at the office, sort through literally thousands of wires in the telco closet on the 16th floor, many of which have been there since 1972, and they identify and punch the right pair. Just follow the "deedle-deedle" 'til you find the right wires.

 

[Brian Austin]

<pedant mode>I think it was a (AT&T/the old Ma bell -> Bell Labs) - > USOC standard that became an EIA/TIA standard.< / pendant mode>

AT&T used the current 568A, which swaps two pairs (can't remember which).

Everything in telco land has some sort of history. I just quoted the standard that he would have been applying for the last 10 years or so.

I love the guys that start quoting old standards and looking back in time about "the good old days". These guys were swearing at this stuff when they had acres of crossconnect instead of a nifty DACS with DS3 (whoops, sorry...I meant T3) connections. Two hours to find the MUX connections between four different switches while we do it today in less than two minutes. Yup, those were the "good old days", I guess.

 

[Brian Austin]

I think we have "AT&T/the old Ma bell -> Bell Labs" to thank for the fact that we have a stunningly robust telecom infrastructure.

Actually, you can also thank them for the incredibly slow pace of telco development until the late 80's. They didn't change because they didn't have to change. If the telco industry had been deregulated decades ago, you'd have had a big surge in development and quite possibly earlier versions of publicly accessible networks like the Internet is today.

 

[mikea]

Actually, you can also thank them for the incredibly slow pace of telco development until the late 80's. They didn't change because they didn't have to change. If the telco industry had been deregulated decades ago, you'd have had a big surge in development and quite possibly earlier versions of publicly accessible networks like the Internet is today.

That occurred to me recently when I heard the SxSW conferference on mobile computing. The Germans, New Zealanders, and Austrailians are amazed how cheap mobile phone service in THE U.S. is. They pay like 25 cents a minute for mobile voice service. That's why they use SMS messaging. One German girl said if they paid what we do they'd be on the phone all of the time! So THAT'S the problem.

They way I remember U.S. mobile radio phones pre-cellular - the ones the TV detectives like Cannon and Mannix used - were several bucks a minute, as was the early cellular AMPS service.

 

[gkainz]

Arghhhh!! Nightmares! The last thing I recall is sitting in a splice pit late one Friday evening on payday in the middle of the Pine Ridge reservation, with 500 pretty little colored wires staring me in the face.

"Blue, Orange, Green, Brown, Slate... White group done.
"God, please don't let a drunk driver land on top of me in this splice pit..."
"Blue, Orange, Green, Brown, Slate... Red group done.
"Dad, park the backhoe between the splice pit and oncoming traffic."
"Blue, Orange, Green, Brown, Slate... Black group done.
"Blue, Orange, Green, Brown, Slate... Yellow group done.
"Blue, Orange, Green, Brown, Slate... Violet group done.
Ok, 25 pair spliced, 225 left to go... how long until sundown?

 

[MSmith]

I did finally get the Radio Shack two line splitters to work. I went back and examined all the lines and found I hadn't seated the white/orange line properly in the block. A mighty push with my jeweller's screwdriver punch, and one small electrical shock later, it seated and I had dial tone.

My parents' house that I grew up in was rather old. Circa 1920 or so. It had all kinds of interesting wiring in it.

One of the jacks in the house wasn't working. A wire had probably come loose.

In the basement was one of those old lightning arrestors, and the "house" side was being used as a terminal block for the single phone line wires. The bolts that the wires screw onto are very exposed and it's easy to touch both and get a minor shock.

We must have had company for dinner, because we were eating in the dining room.

What happened - I was attaching a wire when the phone rang. I hadn't gotten shocked before but I guess the higher voltage arced the small distance to my hand.

What they heard upstairs: Ring OWWW!!!

They still tell that story.

 

[mikea]

My parents' house that I grew up in was rather old. Circa 1920 or so. It had all kinds of interesting wiring in it.

One of the jacks in the house wasn't working. A wire had probably come loose.

In the basement was one of those old lightning arrestors, and the "house" side was being used as a terminal block for the single phone line wires. The bolts that the wires screw onto are very exposed and it's easy to touch both and get a minor shock.

We must have had company for dinner, because we were eating in the dining room.

What happened - I was attaching a wire when the phone rang. I hadn't gotten shocked before but I guess the higher voltage arced the small distance to my hand.

What they heard upstairs: Ring OWWW!!!

They still tell that story.

The phone lines got ~12 volts DC talk juice off hook. I think it's 48VDC on hook*. The ring voltage is ~98 volts AC. WOW, indeed.

Thus the advice to take a phone off hook before you touch the wires.

* When I was an alarm man there were some cases where I used to get shocks at the phone entrance every time I touched the terminal - son-of-a.. - up on a ladder in most cases and this would be at a school way after hours and no phone was ringing.

 

[gismo]

My parents' house that I grew up in was rather old. Circa 1920 or so. It had all kinds of interesting wiring in it.

One of the jacks in the house wasn't working. A wire had probably come loose.

In the basement was one of those old lightning arrestors, and the "house" side was being used as a terminal block for the single phone line wires. The bolts that the wires screw onto are very exposed and it's easy to touch both and get a minor shock.

We must have had company for dinner, because we were eating in the dining room.

What happened - I was attaching a wire when the phone rang. I hadn't gotten shocked before but I guess the higher voltage arced the small distance to my hand.

What they heard upstairs: Ring OWWW!!!

They still tell that story.

When the phone is on-hook (hung up) the voltage will be nearly 50 (DC) which is hardly perceptible unless your fingers are moist with sweat. When the phone is ringing there is 90-100 VAC (usually but not always at 20 Hz) added to the 50 DC so on one peak of the AC the total is close to 150 which can be painful. The AC part is also quite a bit more noticable than DC.

 

[rpadula]

Heh heh. Reminds me of a story I read years ago on the telecom digest:

It's common practice in England to ring a telephone by sending ringing voltage across one side of the two wire circuit and ground (earth in England). When the subscriber answers the phone, it switches to the two wire circuit for the conversation. This method allows two parties on the same line to be signaled without disturbing each other.

Anyway, an elderly lady with several pets called to say that her telephone failed to ring when her friends called; and that on the few occasions when it did ring her dog always barked first. The telephone repairman proceeded to the scene, curious to see this psychic dog.

He climbed a nearby telephone pole, hooked in his test set, and dialed the subscriber's house. The phone didn't ring. He tried again. The dog barked loudly, followed by a ringing telephone.

1. Climbing down from the pole, the telephone repairman found:
2. The dog was tied to the telephone system's ground post via an iron chain and collar.
3. The dog was receiving 90 volts of signaling current.
4. After several such jolts, the dog would start barking and urinating on the ground.
5. The wet ground now completed the circuit and the phone would ring.

Which shows you that some problems can be fixed by just ****ing on them. But only temporarily.


Probably BS, but I fell outta my chair laughing first time I saw it.


-Rich