N/A Good used van or Minivan?

[mikea]

In my continued mind games thinking about the wrong things it occurred to me that I could do well to get an old van or minvan to help do the move and what needs done in the new house. The idea is renting one would be $150-$200 each weekend, so I could buy one and pay the less "rent" up front.

Which 10 year old vans are likely to last a few more years? I'll pay $3000 or so.

I'm thinking Ford Windstar. I just saw a 1998 listed for $2950. Being that I have a Sable with 180K miles...and Ford makes good trucks although I know the minis are actually cars. This van will likely replace the Sable, which I intended to own through exactly one winter, but I may hang on to it as redundant redundancy.

Anybody else have any experiences with vans that can make it over 100K miles?

The original Chrysler/Dodge Caravans?

*sigh* I'm about to go suburban big time right down to the minivan....and owning three cars.

I might consider a full size panel van like an Econoline if a) it doesn't look so bad my new neighbors want to burn me out and b) it fits under the carport.

 

[rsleeds]

Mike - we used to have a mid-90's Windstar and it was a good solid vehicle. Drove just like a Sable/Taurus. Also, lots of room with the back seats out (middle row and back bench).

 

[Michael]

Caravans had transmission troubles. Early 90s models.

 

[HPNFlyGirl]

dodge caravans suck.

 

[bbchien]

Mike, don't do the Windstar (1995). We went through 3 transmissions in 50,000 miles/4 years. If you think Sue is drag racing a Windstar, I have news for you......

The 1-2 shift plunger is a plastic part that fails. The SECOND overhaul I watched as the guy put in the same P/N, and my comment was- "they haven't upgraded the part?" "Nope".

I walked over to the General Manager, and told him to wholesale the thing for me on completion, 10$ commission. Car was gone. Good riddance.

Look at some of the Windstar's owner's gripe pages. And, Fraud Motor Co. does NOT stand behind their transmission. The Honda Odyssey which replaced it failed the tranny twice, too, but Honda paid to have it rebuilt twice. Different attitude!

 

[mikea]

Mike, don't do the Windstar (1995). We went through 3 transmissions in 50,000 miles/4 years. If you think Sue is drag racing a Windstar, I have news for you......

The 1-2 shift plunger is a plastic part that fails. The SECOND overhaul I watched as the guy put in the same P/N, and my comment was- "they haven't upgraded the part?" "Nope".

I walked over to the General Manager, and told him to wholesale the thing for me on completion, 10$ commission. Car was gone. Good riddance.

Look at some of the Windstar's owner's gripe pages. And, Fraud Motor Co. does NOT stand behind their transmission. The Honda Odyssey which replaced it failed the tranny twice, too, but Honda paid to have it rebuilt twice. Different attitude!

OK. Thanks.
What 'dya think? You can see some corrosion on the roof hatch.
http://madison-auto-sales.ebizautos.com/detail-1996-honda-odyssey-ex-palatine-1366898.html

 

[kevin47881]

Mike, looks good, for a minivan anyhow . I'd offer him $3,400 cash and drive it like you stole it. With 130k miles (if I recall correctly), the thing has plenty of life left in it providing the previous owner didn't beat it like a baby seal.

 

[SCCutler]

dodge caravans suck.

Brook: This comment is not useful, and the Chrysler minivans, on the whole, have a sound reputation. If you had one which was well-maintained, and it was unreliable, it might be of use to hear of it.

===

Best deal in used minivans seem to me to be the late 90s GMs, like (for example) Olds Silhouette, which seems to have suffered in resale price the most because of the untimely death of the Olds division. The GM front-drive drivetrains are, with reasonable maintenance, very solid.

 

[mikea]

Mike, looks good, for a minivan anyhow . I'd offer him $3,400 cash and drive it like you stole it. With 130k miles (if I recall correctly), the thing has plenty of life left in it providing the previous owner didn't beat it like a baby seal.

"You stole it!" That's what my new neighbor said about my deal for the house.

Thanks.

I'll go look at it. I gotta see if I have enough legroom to drive it.

 

[DeeG]

Our next 4 wheeled vehicle will be a Sprinter. High top, 158" wheelbase. White in color, no cargo windows. Cargo partition with sliding door, luxury bucket seats, power everything and one of them backup thingies that tell you when you're about to smack into that million dollar Enzo you're parking in front of.

We decided on this so that we wouldn't have to tow a trailer behind the big, rattly Dodge truck. We can load a couple of motorcycles in the van, and head out. If need be, we can sleep in the thing, too.

And it has one of them bullet proof Mercedes diesel engines in them.

 

[wsuffa]

Mike, get a pickup truck.

F-150. 4x4 if you can find one. Get a bed cover.

Probably in the same price range.

At least you won't look like you have 3 kids as a soccer dad.

 

[bbchien]

Mike that one looks OK but I don't think you'll have enough headroom. Remember, WE own one and I've had you in it.

Suffa is right. Look at an F150 or a Toyota Tundra. The cabins (ONE ROW) are huge because the customer is usually a working man. Their systems are SIMPLE with little to fail. And they have HEAVY duty systems. I mean the Brake calipers on the Tundra are HUGE.

 

[msmspilot]

Best deal in used minivans seem to me to be the late 90s GMs, like (for example) Olds Silhouette, which seems to have suffered in resale price the most because of the untimely death of the Olds division. The GM front-drive drivetrains are, with reasonable maintenance, very solid.

I'll second this. My mother has driven various year Silhouettes since '92, and never bought one new (let someone else take the depriciation hit). I have one now (a '95) and just rolled over 201K miles. I've rebuilt the transmission, but everything else has been routine stuff. When you take the seats out, you can fit a bunch of stuff in it. An amazing amount of stuff.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Mike, get a pickup truck.

Or think even further outside the box. We bought an old bread truck for $2000 to make the move from Oklahoma to New York.

Lots of headroom. Very high view over the tops of traffic. No real get up and go on the hills, but no one tried to cut us off, since it was real obvious we didn't care about our paint job. Speaking of which, when it became really dreadful, we went to the paint store, bought a gallon of housepaint the color of New Mexico, and refreshed the exterior with a short-napped roller.

Kept it for years and made the trip several times, even from NY to Calif and back and to Mexico and back with a bunch of kids in the back. Bolted a sofa down. OK, not the safest way to travel.

Loved it.

 

[SCCutler]

Kept it for years and made the trip several times, even from NY to Calif and back and to Mexico and back with a bunch of kids in the back. Bolted a sofa down. OK, not the safest way to travel.

Loved it.

Memories: Spike's in the Boy Scouts, early 70s; trip across Texas in the back of a Ford Econoline van, owned by assistant Scoutmaster in the pest control business. Stinky. Seats: Two picnic benches, one along each side.

We made "nests" of tents and sleeping bags along the sides, behind and under the benches. We did not know we were in danger, hence, had a blast.

 

[NC Pilot]

I've heard good things about the Chevy Astro vans in terms of reliablity. Not much for looks, but I'm sure that is not what you are looking for.

 

[Ken Ibold]

dodge caravans suck.

Dodges in general suck. I have gone on at length about the Dodge Durango I owned for 4 years, 48,000 miles and 20+ unscheduled trips to the shop. Funny, I replaced it with a Honda Pilot that I've had 3.5 years, 45,000 miles, and 1 unscheduled trip to the shop.

Every time my kids see a Durango, they say, "Oh, there's someone stuck with a hunk of junk!"

 

[Everskyward]

The original Chrysler/Dodge Caravans?

I had a Plymouth Grand Voyager for a while. I seem to recall it was a mid 1980s model which I bought with 80,000 miles. I drove it for maybe 2 or 3 years. It really would haul a lot of stuff. The transmission was OK but the head gasket went out during that time which was over $1,000 to replace. People would tease me about it and call it my "soccer mom" car because I have no kids and I rarely had a passenger, but oh well...

 

[mikea]

Or think even further outside the box. We bought an old bread truck for $2000 to make the move from Oklahoma to New York.

Lots of headroom. Very high view over the tops of traffic. No real get up and go on the hills, but no one tried to cut us off, since it was real obvious we didn't care about our paint job. Speaking of which, when it became really dreadful, we went to the paint store, bought a gallon of housepaint the color of New Mexico, and refreshed the exterior with a short-napped roller.

Kept it for years and made the trip several times, even from NY to Calif and back and to Mexico and back with a bunch of kids in the back. Bolted a sofa down. OK, not the safest way to travel.

Loved it.

I had a Step-van 20 years ago, which I used for business and was forever going to turn into camper. That would stretch the need for practicality too far. I couldn't get it under the carport. They're designed for city use. They don't like going down highways much.

Even looking at an Econoline panel van now, I'm reminded that it would be drafty and noisy. I'm too old for that now.

I'm going to look at a F-150. It seems to me that a van doesn't require lifting the stuff as high but it might do the job.

 

[SCCutler]

Dodges in general suck. I have gone on at length about the Dodge Durango I owned for 4 years, 48,000 miles and 20+ unscheduled trips to the shop. Funny, I replaced it with a Honda Pilot that I've had 3.5 years, 45,000 miles, and 1 unscheduled trip to the shop.

Every time my kids see a Durango, they say, "Oh, there's someone stuck with a hunk of junk!"

At the market point we're addressing, it's more about how well-maintained the vehicle is. There are always exceptions. I had a Honda Civic which was really cool, great fun, decent mileage (though never as good as they claimed, wonder if my driving had anything to do with that?), but very unreliable. I know that they have improved since then.

And a I have a lot of clients who use Dodge trucks in their construction businesses (although Fords still dominate), with good results.

Bro/Sis in Law have Chrysler minivan, about 150k miles, still a nice ride; they did buy a tranny at about 130k, but that is all, and I mean all, they've had to fix. Even the electrically-opening motorized door and hatch, which I predicted would fail immediately, have been trouble-free.

As always, look at the logs (we wish!). YMMV.

 

[gkainz]

We had real good luck with the Ford Aerostar. The AWD was nice for winter driving here in CO. Bought a 2 year old '95 program vehicle we drove for 3 years but was totalled in a wreck. Bought another 2 year old 97 (last model year) program vehicle with 25k miles on the clock - drove that for 6 years and 90k miles. It did have a tranny case crack (which I think was a known problem for a batch of '97s) repaired under warranty. No other problems with the van that I recall now. Drove nice, decent fuel economy (can't recall the exact numbers any more), comfortable to ride in, seats came out very easily.

 

[imQ]

I've had goo luck with Dodge, but I work for a dealer and know what to look out for & what to run from. 01 1500 pick up 74000 miles V-8 5 spd. 1 visit to the dealer for a leak pump. 2000 Dodge Intrepid 2.7 v6 129000 had to replace the timing chain & tensioner at 85k and a rad. fan motor at about the same time.
Dee, We run several of the Sprinter vans all over the state of OK
delivering parts. 2004 and 2005 models with 120k on the new one & they are bullet proof and almost idiot proof. Our 04 gets approx. 28 mpg and the 05 about 24, but I think the difference is in the drivers.
For a low price van, I would go with another Chevy Astro AWD. I had a 90 that I put 143000 on and the guy that bought it fron me is still driving it 7 years later. (it's tired looking but I still see him driving it around town)

 

[EdFred]

Chevy/GM Astro/Safari.

We use them for our work vehicles, and I don't think we've had one go less than 300,000 miles. Oh, unless you count the one that got taken out by a deer. More payload than the Ford and Chrysler/Dodge. Get the AWD and 4.3L engine.

 

[Ken Ibold]

At the market point we're addressing, it's more about how well-maintained the vehicle is. There are always exceptions.

Well, in my case, the Durango was never, ever without a mechanical fault, from the day I drove it out of the showroom with 11 miles on the clock until I convinced the Honda dealer to wholesale it for me. Every single day there was something wrong with it. Once I thought it was fixed but it broke while I was driving home from the dealer. Often it was little niggling things, and I'd wait for 5-6 to fail, and then take it in. They'd give it back and only 4 of the things had been fixed. Much of it was under warranty, but the time and hassle factor was immense. I even tried two different dealers and, when the warranty was out, independent places.

The worst was the intake plenum had a known design flaw. 3 repairs, one under warranty and two at $800 a pop. The power windows each broke at least twice; the front passenger side 5 times. The rear AC unit was intermittent. The tranny failed at 40,000 miles. The side view mirrors fell off. A rear seat belt inertial drive locked up and would not release the belt. And on and on...

IMO, this was not a matter of maintenancel; it's a matter of exceedingly poor design and lack of merchantability.

 

[EdFred]

Well, in my case, the Durango was never, ever without a mechanical fault, from the day I drove it out of the showroom with 11 miles on the clock until I convinced the Honda dealer to wholesale it for me. Every single day there was something wrong with it. Once I thought it was fixed but it broke while I was driving home from the dealer. Often it was little niggling things, and I'd wait for 5-6 to fail, and then take it in. They'd give it back and only 4 of the things had been fixed. Much of it was under warranty, but the time and hassle factor was immense. I even tried two different dealers and, when the warranty was out, independent places.

The worst was the intake plenum had a known design flaw. 3 repairs, one under warranty and two at $800 a pop. The power windows each broke at least twice; the front passenger side 5 times. The rear AC unit was intermittent. The tranny failed at 40,000 miles. The side view mirrors fell off. A rear seat belt inertial drive locked up and would not release the belt. And on and on...

IMO, this was not a matter of maintenancel; it's a matter of exceedingly poor design and lack of merchantability.

Oooh, 40k That's better than my Jeep Cherokee. My tranny went out at 28k. I had it in 9 times in the first year for other problems until the transmission went. Regional manager told me to go **** myself, and to just deal with it. I will NEVER by anything by Chrysler Jeep Daimler Mopar POS again.

 

[mikea]

Mike, get a pickup truck.

F-150. 4x4 if you can find one. Get a bed cover.

Probably in the same price range.

At least you won't look like you have 3 kids as a soccer dad.

Thanks, Bill. I know F-150s are supposed to be bulletproof.

I'm gonna look at this one in the dark tomorrow night:
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detai...E+descending|Q-descending|Z-60030&aff=chitrib
way up in Kenosha.

It looks to meets the mission. It doesn't appear to look so bad.
My cynical self wonders why the pictures are from summer and why he doesn't show the interior.

He says he thinks the airbags don't work but he thinks the A/C does...and the tranny "got tired" when he hauled 3000 lbs of stuff. He bought it used for occasional hauling use just like I'm planning.

With this I'll have 3 cars parked out front so the house may look like a used Ford lot. Maybe the neighbors will pool their money to buy me a garage.

 

[imQ]

Sad thing is, every car line I've ever dealt with has had at least a couple of horror stories. Usually, how the dealer chooses too handle it is how the customer remembers it. One of my customers told me about the first new car he bought, It was in the shop several times the first couple of months he had it. He told me he and his wife were sitting at the dinner table discussing what to do about the car when the owner of the dealership (at the time) called him, saying he had noticed how many times the car had been in for repair and asked him bring the car in and switch him into a new one. My customer said he'd bought every new car after that from us, even after the dealership changed hands. Too bad you don't see that anymore

 

[Keith Lane]

Mike, We're on our second Windstar (the first was totalled) and have had good, if not exceptional luck with them both. I do think you'd be happier in the long run with a pickup though. My first was a '69 F-100 and I drove it fir 26 years Bought it used for $1400 and sold it for $700. I had a '87 Ford Ranger after that, bought it with 107K mikes and put another 153K on it before I sold it (for $400) and got my current '97 F-150, at the time with 158K and now at 195K miles. I've come to know Fords pretty well, and I also used to fix cars (Porsches) for a livine and as the family mechanic always get a call from friends, family members and worst of all, co-workers whenever there is any crisis. I'd stay away from the Chrysler product line as well. They might run well if maintained meticulously, but you will have no assurance that it was. Fords seem to run better with more stuff wrong than about any line available that I know of (we have had Acura's and Honda's too.) When considering a particular make or model, I'd suggest logging on to www.automotiveforums.com and look at the list of gripes and common problems with that model, bearing in mind that the folks posting there are posting their woes only and you can get turned off pretty quickly from a good line of cars. Register, (they NEVER have spammed me) and ask the moderators about the car you're interested in. The Mods are usually mechanocs at dealerships. You aren't out anything but a few minutes of time, and you will have a future asset for when that inevitable problem does occur. I have a couple of other very good F-150 forums too.

Remember, I you want a friend, buy a chainsaw.....
If you want a LOT of friends, but a pickup truck.
PM me if you have any F-150 specific F-150 questions. I might know the answer.
KL

 

[SCCutler]

Well, in my case, the Durango was never, ever without a mechanical fault...

...And on and on...

IMO, this was not a matter of maintenancel; it's a matter of exceedingly poor design and lack of merchantability.

Man, there cannot be words sufficient to defend that record.

Can't say for Florida, in Texas, the dealer would have had to buy it back under our Lemon Law, although only if the owner (1) knew about it, and (2) invoked it. If you ever bring a car in for service and they fail to document each complaint on a work order, you know why, because it's repeat visits for the same problem that trigger most consumer protection statutes dealing with cars.

Oooh, 40k That's better than my Jeep Cherokee. My tranny went out at 28k. I had it in 9 times in the first year for other problems until the transmission went. Regional manager told me to go **** myself, and to just deal with it. I will NEVER by anything by Chrysler Jeep Daimler Mopar POS again.

Man alive.

I had a Cherokee, '89 with the 4.0L six, I sold with 146,000 miles on it, and last I spoke with the guy who bought it, it had over 225k on it. Only real mechanical problem I had was leaking fuel injectors, I replaced 5 of the 6 before I sold it (but they were made by Bosch); they still worked, they just leaked.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Can't say for Florida, in Texas, the dealer would have had to buy it back under our Lemon Law, although only if the owner (1) knew about it, and (2) invoked it.

We looked into Lemon Lawing it. However, the Fla lemon law addresses a single problem going unfixed several times over the first two years. The myriad problems we had extended over 4 years of ownership and, although many of the problems were recurrent, the straw that would have broken the camel's back under the lemon law came about three weeks after the original 2 year time frame expired.

 

[Henning]

Which 10 year old vans are likely to last a few more years? I'll pay $3000 or so.

Well, my buddy had a GMC Safari (same as the Chevy Astro) and that thing had over 350,000 miles when it floated away in Hurricaine George, and that man NEVER did any maint. He was concerned one time around 238,000 when it developed a miss. I looked at it and all that happenned was a plug wire burned through on the exhaust manifold. New wire and no more maint till it floated away. BTW, I pickled the engine after the storm and it fired right back up, but the insurance still decided to total it.

YMMV

 

[wsuffa]

Thanks, Bill. I know F-150s are supposed to be bulletproof.

I'm gonna look at this one in the dark tomorrow night:

Looks OK in the picture. Only 102K miles. Might could get the tranny overhauled if you get the truck at the right price.

I'm about to put myself in the market for a used vehicle to keep in the DC area since I'm traveling there a lot... tired of renting cars and paying the price. I've been thinking something like a F150 that I can eventually take as transportation up to the mountain property that I own. Or another Pathfinder if I can get it at the right price.

 

[wsuffa]

Oooh, 40k That's better than my Jeep Cherokee. My tranny went out at 28k. I had it in 9 times in the first year for other problems until the transmission went. Regional manager told me to go **** myself, and to just deal with it. I will NEVER by anything by Chrysler Jeep Daimler Mopar POS again.

Same way I feel about GM. Chevy Blazer, mid-80's. I was on the third tranny and second torque convertor before it hit 24,000 miles. Dealer and zone rep wouldn't do anything for me. Finally threatened lemon law. That got the third tranny done. To top it all off, dealer left said vehicle on side street, getting a couple of parking tickets. I found out when I went to renew the registration. Of course, dealer disavowed any knowledge... until I took the work orders in along with the DMV printout.

Scum.

 

[cwyckham]

My parents did a lot of research and settled on a Honda Odyssey. They love it.

 

[Don Jones]

Brook: This comment is not useful, and the Chrysler minivans, on the whole, have a sound reputation. If you had one which was well-maintained, and it was unreliable, it might be of use to hear of it.

===

Best deal in used minivans seem to me to be the late 90s GMs, like (for example) Olds Silhouette, which seems to have suffered in resale price the most because of the untimely death of the Olds division. The GM front-drive drivetrains are, with reasonable maintenance, very solid.

Well Spike, I work on them everyday and I agree with Brook. Some really well maintained vans too, all sorts of electronic problems, transmission issues, oil leaks(worst oil leakers that come into my shop) and on and on.
Consumer reports always ranks them high, and I have always wondered how much that cost chrysler.

 

[mikea]

Well Spike, I work on them everyday and I agree with Brook. Some really well maintained vans too, all sorts of electronic problems, transmission issues, oil leaks(worst oil leakers that come into my shop) and on and on.
Consumer reports always ranks them high, and I have always wondered how much that cost chrysler.

OK, Don, tell me which ones do hold up.

That F-150 is likely going to be sold to the guy who called before I did. *sigh* The guy is from Arizona and said "I'm buying it. I'm flying out." I told the seller I can fly out, too,

Owell, I have weeks to find the next one. One thing I've decided is the dealers all look sleezy. I gotta jump a deal with a private seller.

 

[Don Jones]

OK, Don, tell me which ones do hold up.

That F-150 is likely going to be sold to the guy who called before I did. *sigh* The guy is from Arizona and said "I'm buying it. I'm flying out." I told the seller I can fly out, too,

Owell, I have weeks to find the next one. One thing I've decided is the dealers all look sleezy. I gotta jump a deal with a private seller.

Well Mike, when it comes to pickups, both Ford and GM are about equal. Ford tends to have more issues with computer problems than does the GM's though neither one are immune to failures in this area. I drive a 99 Silverado 4x4 that currently has 150,00 miles on it. I have replaced the water pump, one window regulator, and one emission part that failed. The fuel pump, transmission, engine, as well a the rest of the drivetrain is un-touched. It has not been babied either. I pulled my 24' enclosed race car trailer all over the place for a couple of years and do NOT do a lot of maintenance on my vehicles.(sorta like a painter's house always needs painting) We have had a few cylinder head issues here lately on the new Ford pickups with the 5.4. They are cracking down in the spark plug wells and filling it with coolant which causes the cylinder to mis-fire, but that alone would not keep me from buying one of them if I was so inclined. If you find something you are interested in, PM me and I will be happy to share all I know about it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

and Ford makes good trucks

If you like fixing electrical problems, maybe.

The local Ford dealer up here is god-awful too.

I'd say your best chance would be with the Honda minivan or Toyota pickup. You're not a fix-your-own guy, right?

 

[Henning]

One thing I've decided is the dealers all look sleezy. I gotta jump a deal with a private seller.

Well, I grew up in the used car business, and while there is truth in what you say, it is not always so. Believe it or not, there are honest and consientious dealers. Look for the small lots that have been around for a good while. They may look shabby and the people there not the best dressed and a bit greasy, but that may be because they aren't making enough money to look better. Where I came up, if you had a problem with a car, we'd help you out, sometimes even a year or so down the road (If you're in St. Louis, I'd like to put in a shameless plug for Grosse Brothers Cars in Affton). We sold cars for what they were. Did we have $500 junk? Sure, and we sold it for $500, no missrepresentation. There's a need for cheap cars to get people to get to work and bank some money. Did we have $10,000 cars? Yep. We didn't screw people over, and I'll tell you, lots of unreasonable people out there that got more than what was fair just to maintain the reputation. That's why they've been around for 33 years. See, if a dealer wants to stay in business, he has to do right, or he'll go out of business.

On the flip side, I've seen private individuals roll up in their car to sell them and they have obviously been doctored to hide problems.

With a dealer, you also have legal recourse that is not available to you in a private individual transaction. The only thing you have with a private individual is reliance on their moral ethics. More to the point, a dealer knows what a vehicle is worth. Most people have no clue, they look in the paper and see the price on a fully serviced, detailed & repaired vehicle like theirs and they think that theirs with a burnt valve, torn interior and paint falling off car should cost the same.

 

[mikea]

Well, I grew up in the used car business, and while there is truth in what you say, it is not always so. Believe it or not, there are honest and consientious dealers. Look for the small lots that have been around for a good while. They may look shabby and the people there not the best dressed and a bit greasy, but that may be because they aren't making enough money to look better. Where I came up, if you had a problem with a car, we'd help you out, sometimes even a year or so down the road (If you're in St. Louis, I'd like to put in a shameless plug for Grosse Brothers Cars in Affton). We sold cars for what they were. Did we have $500 junk? Sure, and we sold it for $500, no missrepresentation. There's a need for cheap cars to get people to get to work and bank some money. Did we have $10,000 cars? Yep. We didn't screw people over, and I'll tell you, lots of unreasonable people out there that got more than what was fair just to maintain the reputation. That's why they've been around for 33 years. See, if a dealer wants to stay in business, he has to do right, or he'll go out of business.

On the flip side, I've seen private individuals roll up in their car to sell them and they have obviously been doctored to hide problems.

With a dealer, you also have legal recourse that is not available to you in a private individual transaction. The only thing you have with a private individual is reliance on their moral ethics. More to the point, a dealer knows what a vehicle is worth. Most people have no clue, they look in the paper and see the price on a fully serviced, detailed & repaired vehicle like theirs and they think that theirs with a burnt valve, torn interior and paint falling off car should cost the same.

OK, Henning, I'll keep an open mind.

What I'm seeing at cars.com is a lot of dealers have the vehicles listed for $1000 over Blue Book or with no pricing whatsoever. I can just imagine when you call the answer is "When can you come see us?" followed by high pressure and "How's $150 a month sound?" Sorry. The chance to pull that on me was when I was 19 and you only get once.

I might still go visit some lots to figure out what models I should look for. I need to try the fit. Then I can wait for one to show up. I might not find one at all.

I don't think the used car lots in town care about repeat business. They care about getting the one shot at the 19 year old.