My plan

[Rigged4Flight]

New to the forum - here's my background: Had about 7 hours instruction about a decade ago. Seemed to never have the time when I had the money, and vice versa. Knew that if I only did an hour here and there I would be a perpetual student pilot, forever broke and under-qualified, so I put it off until better times.

Now I'm to a point where I can start to plan my plan. I'm currently out of the country, but I should be leaving here in about 18 months or so, and I will have some time on my hands, and funds available to devote to serious flight training. I know that no plan ever survives the first minute of combat, so this is only a plan - not a concrete road. Looking for input, suggestions and insight from pretty much anyone at this point.

I will have access to the Post-911 GI Bill. I haven't done a lot of research on it lately, but I know that the latest revision to it allows for flight training without going through a college program.

I want to devote a good solid 30-60 days to nothing but flying. I plan on looking for a flight school in Arizona (most predictably good weather in the lower 48), and live there for as long as it takes to get my PPL - or at least very close to it if it doesn't happen within 60 days. I figure with the predictable weather, plus access to mountains for diversity of flying/terrain conditions, Arizona is my best bet.

My home is in Vermont, so after I do my 30-60 days in AZ I'll look up a CFI near home and spend some time with him/her to get acclimated to the different flying conditions in New England.

I would very much like to purchase an economical plane to train in that I could take back to VT. I've asked a few pilot friends, and the responses I get run from the extremely positive to "don't be a fool!" I know the purchase price of the aircraft represents only the entry cost. The loaded cost/hour, and the annual cost - whether I fly the plane or not - can equal or exceed the purchase price. While I will be able to afford to not work for a couple of months, pay for full time training, and spend ~$20k for a plane, my goal is to make this expensive hobby as affordable as possible once I attain the PPL. I would like a reliable, low GPH, 4 (or comfortable 2) seater that I would use for ~100 hours/year. I live just on the other side of nowhere, and as far as I know there are no flying clubs or concentration of pilots in my area that I could enter into a partnership with to share the cost of an aircraft. So unless I find something like that, my choices as I see them are to purchase or rent. Not entirely sure that purchasing something along the lines of a C150, C172 or even a Ercoupe would meet my need for economical flying, given the unknown costs of the annual, periodic engine overhauls, etc. I could do a lot of rental with $20K worth of slush funds, so I'm not welded to the idea of purchasing, but I do like the pride of ownership aspect. ...so I'm still on the fence on this issue, is what I'm trying to say.

Such as it is, that's my plan for 18 months from now. In the meantime, I have the King School Private Pilot DVD course (the "Get It All" bundle). Once the fighting season settles down a bit here, I plan to go through the course and do some practice exams until I can comfortably score very high. Until I leave this part of the world that's about all I can think of to do to work towards my goal from here.

Sorry for the long post. I'm looking for input. I don't have thin skin, and I know that at this point I don't even know what I don't know - so feel free to give me advice in any way you like. Thanks in advance!

 

[SCCutler]

Without regard to the thickness of your skin, your plan is a sound one. Intensive flying (assuming your mindset and stamina are up to it) is the most efficient way to get a rating.

As for buying vs. renting, if there are no alternate choices close to where you live, then I makes sense, but be sure you've evaluated all the options well. You've already figured out it's going to cost some serious coin, so eyes wide open here. When it comes to buying, you'll pay more for a four seater (172, Archer, etc.) but you'll get more utility out of it as well, for training and other use.

Welcome to PoA, and thank you for your service. Stay in touch, and you may well find a "PoA-er" who can help you when the time draws near.

 

[denverpilot]

Welcome, and thanks for serving.

I'm not up to speed on the post 9/11 GI Bill, so no help there.

The thought process seems sound so far. I get a feeling you're a "planner" from that post, and you'll figure out a good course of action, as info changes.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

Thanks for the replies. I didn't want to give the impression that I'm over here as a soldier. My military service ended in January. I'm over here this time as a civilian contractor working for the Department of Defense. Best pay raise I've ever received.

 

[denverpilot]

Haha. No problem, consider the comment for your pre-"retirement" then.

 

[DaleB]

I keep seeing a guy in AZ or somewhere with a 152 or 172 for sale on eBay... and he's a CFI, runs a flight school, so it's a "Buy this plane and I'll throw in the license for free" deal. He provides a place to stay and you fly every day until your checkride. Looked like a pretty good deal to me; in fact, if it hadn't been a 152 when I saw it I might have gone for it. A 152 is simply not enough airplane for my needs, but I think Ive seen the same offer with a 172.

Just something to think about,

 

[poadeleted20]

While I will be able to afford to not work for a couple of months, pay for full time training, and spend ~$20k for a plane, my goal is to make this expensive hobby as affordable as possible once I attain the PPL. I would like a reliable, low GPH, 4 (or comfortable 2) seater that I would use for ~100 hours/year.

At that level of flying, buying rather than renting makes sense.

Not entirely sure that purchasing something along the lines of a C150, C172 or even a Ercoupe would meet my need for economical flying, given the unknown costs of the annual, periodic engine overhauls, etc. I could do a lot of rental with $20K worth of slush funds, so I'm not welded to the idea of purchasing, but I do like the pride of ownership aspect. ...so I'm still on the fence on this issue, is what I'm trying to say.

For a copy of a paper I wrote on the ownership costs of an airplane like that, email me (no PM's, phone calls, posts here, smoke signals, or ESP waves, thank you) by clicking on my name and following the instructions. That may help you make your decisions.

One thing to beware of is that the 2-seat 100HP class (C-150/152, Piper Tomahawk, Grumman Yankee, Beech Skipper, and the like) have very limited capabilities. It's often much better to get an O-300/320-powered 145-160 HP 4-seater even if you only plan to have two people in it, and if you really want to carry four adults, think O-360 180HP as a minimum. If your purchase budget is only $20K, you may find yourself squeezed hard between cost and capability -- you might start thinking about finding a partner on this so you can afford something more than an Ercoupe or old Cessna 150.

And welcome to PoA!

 

[Rigged4Flight]

I keep seeing a guy in AZ or somewhere with a 152 or 172 for sale on eBay... and he's a CFI, runs a flight school, so it's a "Buy this plane and I'll throw in the license for free" deal. He provides a place to stay and you fly every day until your checkride. Looked like a pretty good deal to me; in fact, if it hadn't been a 152 when I saw it I might have gone for it. A 152 is simply not enough airplane for my needs, but I think Ive seen the same offer with a 172.

Just something to think about,

I spent several days (until I made myself stop) reading through every single-engine plane auction on ebay. I traded emails with some guy that was selling a C152 and a C172 with the promise of teaching the winning bidder to fly. He had pictures of the house the student would live in during training, simulator setup, etc. It was somewhere in California. I've seen the same two aircraft for sale a few times, so maybe he is having a hard time getting the winning bidders to pony up the $$. That really seemed like a good deal. One of the red flags that kept popping up in my head was "what if he sucks as a CFI - or what if we just don't work well together."

At that level of flying, buying rather than renting makes sense.

For a copy of a paper I wrote on the ownership costs of an airplane like that, email me (no PM's, phone calls, posts here, smoke signals, or ESP waves, thank you) by clicking on my name and following the instructions. That may help you make your decisions.

One thing to beware of is that the 2-seat 100HP class (C-150/152, Piper Tomahawk, Grumman Yankee, Beech Skipper, and the like) have very limited capabilities. It's often much better to get an O-300/320-powered 145-160 HP 4-seater even if you only plan to have two people in it, and if you really want to carry four adults, think O-360 180HP as a minimum. If your purchase budget is only $20K, you may find yourself squeezed hard between cost and capability -- you might start thinking about finding a partner on this so you can afford something more than an Ercoupe or old Cessna 150.

And welcome to PoA!

I hear ya. That's one reason why I came here. I don't have enough experience to really know what I want. My wallet is saying "go for the 5 GPH aircraft!" But the little boy in me that has been wanting to fly all his life is yelling "pick the one that does more stuff!" My mind is saying "somewhere in the middle is probably best." And my life experience is telling me that I will be stuck with what I pay for long after the pain of writing the check has been forgotten. I said all that to say this: email is on the way!

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I am very limited when I rent the 150 and haven't found anything (yet) I can't do in the 172. I agree with Ron. If my boyfriend and I want to camp, and bring the dogs, the 180hp conversion rental 172 is our only option. We haven't done it, yet, but I plan to this summer - camp under the wing. It will be my first aviation vacation..... the other XC I did involved cars and hotels and meeting other people.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Your plan basically is a hand-rolled version of what the military does: Intense concentrated instruction. I survived it and think it is a great way to learn for those who can focus and have great self-discipline. Just approach it like 60 days of boot camp and drive yourself to eat, sleep, and breathe flying and you will be amazed at how you progress,

I would look at a 172 or similar. (Musketeer, Cherokee etc.) as what others have said about two seaters is valid and if your goal is to have a plane of your own for sport flying when not working you can have one that will be very serviceable for as long as you choose to own it. Good Luck, and thank you for your service.

 

[CBeaulieu]

I believe you will need to attend a Part 141 flight school to utilize your GI Bill. Make sure that's the case before you get too in depth.

Thank you for your service!

 

[raider]

the GI Bill does not cover the initial PPL but covers 100% of all other 141 ratings (reimbursed)

 

[Rigged4Flight]

I am very limited when I rent the 150 and haven't found anything (yet) I can't do in the 172. I agree with Ron. If my boyfriend and I want to camp, and bring the dogs, the 180hp conversion rental 172 is our only option. We haven't done it, yet, but I plan to this summer - camp under the wing. It will be my first aviation vacation..... the other XC I did involved cars and hotels and meeting other people.

Good advice. My wife and I love to camp. One of my pipe dreams is to find some remote dirt strip somewhere in the middle of nowhere and camp there for a few days. I'm not 100% committed to buying versus renting, but this brings up one plus for renting: the ability to select an aircraft based on the specific flight I want to make.

Your plan basically is a hand-rolled version of what the military does: Intense concentrated instruction. I survived it and think it is a great way to learn for those who can focus and have great self-discipline. Just approach it like 60 days of boot camp and drive yourself to eat, sleep, and breathe flying and you will be amazed at how you progress,

That's actually the easiest way for me to learn. MUCH easier to stuff things into what's left of my long-term memory if I go the total immersion route. :wink2:

I would look at a 172 or similar. (Musketeer, Cherokee etc.) as what others have said about two seaters is valid and if your goal is to have a plane of your own for sport flying when not working you can have one that will be very serviceable for as long as you choose to own it. Good Luck, and thank you for your service.

Thanks - adding them to my list of possibles!

I believe you will need to attend a Part 141 flight school to utilize your GI Bill. Make sure that's the case before you get too in depth.

Thank you for your service!

oops - see below

the GI Bill does not cover the initial PPL but covers 100% of all other 141 ratings (reimbursed)

The last time I had done any reading about the Post 9-11 GI Bill was in late 2010. Flight training (including PPL) was on the agenda for things that were going to be added/changed in version 2.0. I just googled it and as late as February 2011 publications were mentioning that it was being added to the bill. Then when the bill passed it somehow was not on the final list. The pessimist in me starting grinding his teeth. The optimist in me started doing cartwheels about all the free IFR training I'll be signing up for as soon as I get my PPL.

 

[dweyant]

I flew down to San Marcos the other day.

Red Bird is based out of the San Marcos airport. They have some really amazing flight simulators.

They have a program that they guarantee you your PPL in three weeks for a total cost of $9500.

I think the price is a bit on the high side, but it has the advantage of you get as many hours as you need.

Just another option look at.

BTW, I bought my plane (C177) in Phoenix, Deer Valley. Two HUGE flight school on the airport. Both had well in excess of 100 planes, it was amazing, and a little frightening to see...

-Dan

 

[raider]

yep, same here about the IFR - just have to get the initial funds, find a program, and take enough leave to do it all at once, ugh

 

[jason]

One thing to consider. If you live in VT and want to fly >= 100 hours a year you'll likely need your instrument rating (and an instrument capable aircraft). There are nice Cherokees out there right now with 180hp engines and Garmin 430s for just over $30-35k. It would be a very economical and capable airplane for two adults and some stuff...or even three and a little stuff. Or look at the experimental fleet for sub 5gph fuel burns.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

I flew down to San Marcos the other day.

Red Bird is based out of the San Marcos airport. They have some really amazing flight simulators.

They have a program that they guarantee you your PPL in three weeks for a total cost of $9500.

I think the price is a bit on the high side, but it has the advantage of you get as many hours as you need.

Just another option look at.

BTW, I bought my plane (C177) in Phoenix, Deer Valley. Two HUGE flight school on the airport. Both had well in excess of 100 planes, it was amazing, and a little frightening to see...

-Dan

I doubt I'll take the accelerated training route. The 1-2 month solid training that I'm planning on is plenty accelerated for me. I'm not as young as I once was. Now I have that Toby Keith song stuck in my head.

Holy cow - 100 planes! Was that the training fleet(s) or were they all for sale?

yep, same here about the IFR - just have to get the initial funds, find a program, and take enough leave to do it all at once, ugh

If I had to choose the PPL or IFR rating to have the VA pay for, I think I'd choose the IFR. I'm gonna wring every last neuron out of my CFI when I go for my instrument rating. Vermont can be brutal in the winter, and it's almost all mountains up there. I'm looking at the instrument rating as potentially saving my life.

One thing to consider. If you live in VT and want to fly >= 100 hours a year you'll likely need your instrument rating (and an instrument capable aircraft). There are nice Cherokees out there right now with 180hp engines and Garmin 430s for just over $30-35k. It would be a very economical and capable airplane for two adults and some stuff...or even three and a little stuff. Or look at the experimental fleet for sub 5gph fuel burns.

Yup - I am absolutely sold on the Instrument rating. Even with that, though, there is going to be a lot of down time in the winter. Not looking forward to finding out the glide ratio of an ice block.

I didn't realize that sub-5GPH aircraft existed. Wonder how affordable they would be to purchase. After reading Ron's paper on the costs of ownership, I'm almost sure I'll have to find a club or partnership, even if it will be an hour or so drive from home. That would help to bring the price of an IFR certified, decently powered, single engine, 4-seat used aircraft within stretching reach of my budget. From everything I'm looking at right now, finding a club or partnership in my area of the state is going to be one of the more daunting parts of my plan.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I do love renting because I have:

A $80 per hour (wet) Cessna 150 plane for fun flights for 1-2 people locally. Have even taken it on a 400-500nm cross country. Little yoke mounted GPS.

A $98 per hour (wet) 180hp Cessna 172 conversion practical plane with 4 seats and a good sized baggage area, built in GPS, and long range gas tanks.

A new plane they are trying to talk me into getting checked out in, a 180hp new - 2009 I think - fuel injected Skyhawk with a G1000 and full autopilot. It is a lot more, about $160 per hour or so, but not subject to the "3 hour per day" mins as the trainers so you can take it on a trip for a week and use the auto pilot.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

I do love renting because I have:

A $80 per hour (wet) Cessna 150 plane for fun flights for 1-2 people locally. Have even taken it on a 400-500nm cross country. Little yoke mounted GPS.

A $98 per hour (wet) 180hp Cessna 172 conversion practical plane with 4 seats and a good sized baggage area, built in GPS, and long range gas tanks.

A new plane they are trying to talk me into getting checked out in, a 180hp new - 2009 I think - fuel injected Skyhawk with a G1000 and full autopilot. It is a lot more, about $160 per hour or so, but not subject to the "3 hour per day" mins as the trainers so you can take it on a trip for a week and use the auto pilot.

Oh boy... I am a gadget freak, and I like the words you are saying.

Seems like the "3 hour per day" rule would make the Skyhawk cheaper than the 172 if your camping trip turned out to be anything over 3 days. Do it!

 

[MAKG1]

The Skyhawk is a 172. This particular one appears to be a 172S.

I can't justify spending the extra money for that, but I don't have minimums at my club (but the 180 HP 172N is $115 instead of $98, and it's a steam-gauge-only aircraft).

At $160/hour, you should almost be able to find a Skylane (182). Screw the G1000, not worth it IMO.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

The Skyhawk is a 172. This particular one appears to be a 172S.

I can't justify spending the extra money for that, but I don't have minimums at my club (but the 180 HP 172N is $115 instead of $98, and it's a steam-gauge-only aircraft).

At $160/hour, you should almost be able to find a Skylane (182). Screw the G1000, not worth it IMO.

Agreed. Like I said they are TRYING to talk me into it. My guess is they don't have enough pilots flying that plane. I'm also one of the only people who can fit in the 150 LOL.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

The Skyhawk is a 172. This particular one appears to be a 172S.

doh! Thanks for the clarification.

 

[AdamZ]

I'm not familiar with how the GI bill works just be careful to get into a reputable school as I often am suspicious that there are a bunch of mills out there.

As for planes, there are some good planes like this one for sale by a POA member http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1963...s_Aircraft&hash=item2c664d120c#ht_1275wt_1164

He also has it listed in the classified section of POA

I'm not telling you to buy his plane as at that price it will likely sell before you get back to the states but am posting it as an example of what I think is a perfect training plane with great equipment that one can use for a good while after they complete training at a fantastic price.

IMHO this is what you should be looking for. Wiz bang gadetry is nice but its important to define your mission. Wayne one of the posters here works as buyers rep in plane purchases. He posted some great advice on plane buying one. I'll try to repeat it. If I screw it up I'll hope he chimes in. Essentially he said write down everything that you want to do with your plane ie all the trips you want to take. Then really think about it and of those trips think of all the trips that are just pipe dreams and your not likely to take. Then cross out all the trips you are really only likely to take once or twice then cross out all the trips that you would only take every few years. The trips that are left are your mission that you are buying for.

As for IR in VT great idea just keep in mind that a lot of winter flying in VT is a no go regardless of your rating due to ice .

Best of luck with your training and keep posting and let us hear about your progress.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

I'm not familiar with how the GI bill works just be careful to get into a reputable school as I often am suspicious that there are a bunch of mills out there.

I've learned via this thread that the GI Bill doesn't pay for initial flight training - one of the prerequisites is a valid PPL. But once I have that, I am absolutely going to continue training to get my IR via the GI Bill. GI Bill only pays if I take the training at a Part 141 school, which if I understand correctly means that there is a lot of auditing and checks performed to ensure the training is done to standard. Hopefully so.

As for planes, there are some good planes like this one for sale by a POA member http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1963...s_Aircraft&hash=item2c664d120c#ht_1275wt_1164

He also has it listed in the classified section of POA

I'm not telling you to buy his plane as at that price it will likely sell before you get back to the states but am posting it as an example of what I think is a perfect training plane with great equipment that one can use for a good while after they complete training at a fantastic price.

Ha! I had placed a that auction on my "watch list" on ebay before I ever registered at PoA. AND I also read the same thread here after I joined. Small world.

IMHO this is what you should be looking for. Wiz bang gadetry is nice but its important to define your mission. Wayne one of the posters here works as buyers rep in plane purchases. He posted some great advice on plane buying one. I'll try to repeat it. If I screw it up I'll hope he chimes in. Essentially he said write down everything that you want to do with your plane ie all the trips you want to take. Then really think about it and of those trips think of all the trips that are just pipe dreams and your not likely to take. Then cross out all the trips you are really only likely to take once or twice then cross out all the trips that you would only take every few years. The trips that are left are your mission that you are buying for.

excellent advice. In some ways I'm glad I have 18 months before I need to make a decision. Like I said earlier, I honestly don't know what I don't know at this point. I wish I lived at an aviation mecca like Dan described, where I could do some hands-on looking at planes for days and pick the brains of their owners for the pros/cons and get a feel for whether they would work for me or not. Definitely glad I found PoA, though. Probably the next best thing to what I just described.

As for IR in VT great idea just keep in mind that a lot of winter flying in VT is a no go regardless of your rating due to ice .

Best of luck with your training and keep posting and let us hear about your progress.

Definitely. Thanks a lot for the input!

 

[AdamZ]

BTW where in VT?

 

[Jaybird180]

Big Brother doesn't actively watch 141 schools....it's like a once in awhile check on them kinda thing.

I trained at a 141 school and not once saw anyone in a black suit, white shirt, black tie and sunshades

 

[somorris]

Thank you for your service, Steve.

I have seen several people post here about buying an airplane, and you can get a lot of free advice! For your purchase budget ($20k), you will be hard pressed to find a decent 4 seater. A lot of 2 seaters fit in that range. Be careful your planned "mission" doesn't cause you to buy more airplane than you can afford to fly. There are a lot of four seaters and even light twins at my airport that rarely get pulled out of the hangar. If clubs and rentals are rare in your home area, consider buying the less expensive airplane, then renting when you need something more capable. I think it is better to have an airplane you can afford to fly whenever you want in order to stay proficient, and in the (maybe) rare occurences when you need more capability, rent something. Just my $0.02 worth!

 

[Rigged4Flight]

BTW where in VT?

Danville, near Saint Johnsbury. There is a small airport at Lyndonville, just up the road from me. I think the nearest instruction of any kind would be either in Montpelier or Newport, both about an hour or so away (depending on what part of the year it is) but neither is a part 141 operation. The only fixed wing 141 school I know of is in Burlington - about 1.5 hours away.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

Big Brother doesn't actively watch 141 schools....it's like a once in awhile check on them kinda thing.

I trained at a 141 school and not once saw anyone in a black suit, white shirt, black tie and sunshades

Ah well. I guess the threat of no-notice inspections is better than nothing.

Thank you for your service, Steve.

I have seen several people post here about buying an airplane, and you can get a lot of free advice! For your purchase budget ($20k), you will be hard pressed to find a decent 4 seater. A lot of 2 seaters fit in that range. Be careful your planned "mission" doesn't cause you to buy more airplane than you can afford to fly. There are a lot of four seaters and even light twins at my airport that rarely get pulled out of the hangar. If clubs and rentals are rare in your home area, consider buying the less expensive airplane, then renting when you need something more capable. I think it is better to have an airplane you can afford to fly whenever you want in order to stay proficient, and in the (maybe) rare occurences when you need more capability, rent something. Just my $0.02 worth!

Thanks for the input! I imagine I'll be torn on the buy vs. rent decision for quite some time. Although if I end up finding a couple of solid pilots in my neck of the woods that have the funds/ability to go in with me on a plane, that would do it for me.