My most amazing flight yet

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I'm still so new to this (90ish hours) that every flight is an adventure. But this weekend's adventure was, by far, the most amazing yet.

I wanted to share the experience with y'all.

The decision was made earlier in the week to try and go to a place I have had on my sights for a while now - from since before I even got my license, actually. The kids were going to spend a night at grandma's, freeing me to go.

So I called the lovely lady I'm seeing and said "you are coming with me. Don't ask too many questions, just pack an overnight bag". She's flown with me before, and was excited. Our destination?

Shelter Cove, CA.

Now, I knew there was a decent chance of flying out there and having to go back or go somewhere else, on account of the foggy marine layer this time of year. But the forecasts all said it was going to be gorgeous, with plenty of time in the afternoon hours with little to no fog. So I planned to arrive somewhere around 4PM, maximizing the chances of making it through.

We took off yesterday from CCR a bit after 2PM, with an almost direct routing to 0Q5. I first flew over clear lake, just because it's so pretty from the air, then headed 290 to the coast to see the conditions. It was truly a beautiful day, and the views were breathtaking all the way through.

And then we got to the coastline. If ever there was a low-lying, completely unbroken white sheet of clouds, this was it. It hugged the coast and inland at about 1000ft. There was no way we were going to do this.

Or was there?

What the heck, we got that far, let's see what we can see. A couple minutes heading north along the coast gave us our first view of the ocean, as a small tear formed in that white sheet. We could see clearly to the water, and more importantly, that layer was very thin - a couple hundred feet top-to-bottom.

I tried ducking under right there, had a quick look around, and climbed back up. We were still over 20nm south of Shelter Cove, and I didn't want to try and fly so low to the water for that long. Hoping we might get lucky closer to the airport, we soldiered on.

My heart was sinking as the GPS counted down the miles. 10. 5. 3. 2. 1. 0. We were right over the airport, but with simply no way to make it down. Oh well. Time to turn inland. I was headed to Garberville.

But wait!

As we turned around that little pointy area at Shelter Cove jutting into the ocean, my copilot saw it first: there was another tear! almost perfectly round, less than 1000ft across, right above the water, maybe a half mile north of 0Q5. Clear to the bottom, and more importantly, immediate confirmation that the layer was thin and hung 800-1000ft above water. It was completely crisp under it. With no air movement at all, it was still. Perfect conditions to try something cool.

I went for it. I drilled - maybe corkscrewed is a better term, as I was literally doing a continuous tight turn (45deg) descending into that hole. It felt like a skater in a ring, going round and round a wall. Three (or maybe four) full circles like that, and we were 500ft under the cloud and still 400ft or so above water. It was gorgeous, vivid, and crisper than I'd ever seen anything - partly due to my heightened concentration and senses, I'm certain. I straightened and went back to the airport slowly. Runway 12 popped up so quickly I was almost over it before I knew it, but with a shallow direct headwind, landing was smooth and easy.

My heart was sure racing though!

As we got into the inn where we were staying, the guy at the front desk said the other 4 pilots that were scheduled to come in canceled after overflying the area earlier in the day. Apparently that hole in the marine layer did not form until 30 minutes before we showed up. By the time we got our stuff into the room, it was already closing, and 30 minutes later, the sky was completely covered everywhere.

Hey, I DID think 4PM would give the best chance, right? *grin*

Shelter Cove itself is just astounding, and I fell in love with it. I am DEFINITELY going back. But that's a different story.

The next day - today - we had to come back. We woke up. That white sheet was hanging all over the place. The guy at the inn said "just stay for as long as you need", and I took him up on it. We spent a lazy morning doing this and that, as I was watching the sky. Around noon, I saw a couple tears starting to form, then closing, then opening again. That's all I needed; all I wanted to see was that the layer was the same as the previous day. It sure was.

We took off less than an hour later, same runway 12. As soon as we got off the ground, I pointed the nose 30 degrees to the right, towards the ocean, set myself on a steady-but-not-too-steep climb, and ignored pretty much everything but the AI, just like I've been taught under the hood, and in actual clouds (thank goodness for good instructors that showed me what it really felt like). As we hit the fog I felt... well, nothing really. I wasn't looking outside. My eyes were fixed on the instruments. It took less than a minute and then we popped out into a beautiful blue sky. I was pointed a bit to the right of where I wanted to be heading (at about 170), which was perfectly fine; it was easy enough to turn back towards the coast and head back to CCR.

And as if this wasn't enough excitement, we then decided to make a lunch and fuel stop at Ukiah on the way back. It's a beautiful spot, except that it's surrounded by pretty steep hills and mountains requiring one to fly at 5500ft from the northwest (as we were), until the very last moment where you come out and it all drops rather dramatically into a valley and a 600ft elevation airport. So I got to do another cool maneuver, forward-slipping 4000ft very rapidly into a left pattern, sinking faster than I ever have before. Oddly enough I never felt in such solid control of a forward slip before either. My copilot said it was the only time she felt nervous at all, because we were at such an extreme attitude with that rather violent slip it very much confused her system. Oh, and someone was taking off as we were overflying like that (we coordinated well on the radio, and it was kinda neat actually). But the pattern entry was at perfect altitude, angle and distance. I was so proud of myself for just how precisely the maneuver ended up getting executed... and oh, the adrenaline rush. Yow.

The last leg of the trip was quite uneventful. But I needed that after all the rest.

What an incredible experience!
 
I like it. Sounds like a nice trip.

Get your instrument rating though. You sound like you're clearly cut out for it, and since I could have been coming down through those same clouds leading to a lot of problems for us both, being on a flight plan with controllers maintaining separation would be nice for both of us.

I'd point out the various ways you could have killed yourself (vac failure, for instance... glued to an instrument is not IFR flying) but I'm glad you had a nice flight and didn't lose it in the clouds. What you did is the most common killer of private pilots, as I hope you know. Stick around a while. Get your instrument rating!
 
You are setting yourself up to become a statistic. You got away with it this time but now that you have done it once you will be more inclined to try it again. NEVER descend in a hole that you can't climb out of. If you had to maintain a 45 degree bank to go down through it could you climb out at that bank angle? Climbing through the clouds IFR as a 90hr pilot is plain stupid. I don't care if it is 400ft or 4000' don't do it again. I followed your training on the other board and thought you were pretty level headed. You really need to review your decisions on this one. Don
 
Yellow, since you seem to know of this guy I guess this is legit. I am glad someone pointed out how incredibly stupid he was. No wonder low time private pilots have such a bad reputation.
 
I'm still so new to this (90ish hours) that every flight is an adventure. But this weekend's adventure was, by far, the most amazing yet.

I wanted to share the experience with y'all.

The decision was made earlier in the week to try and go to a place I have had on my sights for a while now - from since before I even got my license, actually. The kids were going to spend a night at grandma's, freeing me to go.

So I called the lovely lady I'm seeing and said "you are coming with me. Don't ask too many questions, just pack an overnight bag". She's flown with me before, and was excited. Our destination?

Shelter Cove, CA.

Now, I knew there was a decent chance of flying out there and having to go back or go somewhere else, on account of the foggy marine layer this time of year. But the forecasts all said it was going to be gorgeous, with plenty of time in the afternoon hours with little to no fog. So I planned to arrive somewhere around 4PM, maximizing the chances of making it through.

We took off yesterday from CCR a bit after 2PM, with an almost direct routing to 0Q5. I first flew over clear lake, just because it's so pretty from the air, then headed 290 to the coast to see the conditions. It was truly a beautiful day, and the views were breathtaking all the way through.

And then we got to the coastline. If ever there was a low-lying, completely unbroken white sheet of clouds, this was it. It hugged the coast and inland at about 1000ft. There was no way we were going to do this.

Or was there?

What the heck, we got that far, let's see what we can see. A couple minutes heading north along the coast gave us our first view of the ocean, as a small tear formed in that white sheet. We could see clearly to the water, and more importantly, that layer was very thin - a couple hundred feet top-to-bottom.

I tried ducking under right there, had a quick look around, and climbed back up. We were still over 20nm south of Shelter Cove, and I didn't want to try and fly so low to the water for that long. Hoping we might get lucky closer to the airport, we soldiered on.

My heart was sinking as the GPS counted down the miles. 10. 5. 3. 2. 1. 0. We were right over the airport, but with simply no way to make it down. Oh well. Time to turn inland. I was headed to Garberville.

But wait!

As we turned around that little pointy area at Shelter Cove jutting into the ocean, my copilot saw it first: there was another tear! almost perfectly round, less than 1000ft across, right above the water, maybe a half mile north of 0Q5. Clear to the bottom, and more importantly, immediate confirmation that the layer was thin and hung 800-1000ft above water. It was completely crisp under it. With no air movement at all, it was still. Perfect conditions to try something cool.

I went for it. I drilled - maybe corkscrewed is a better term, as I was literally doing a continuous tight turn (45deg) descending into that hole. It felt like a skater in a ring, going round and round a wall. Three (or maybe four) full circles like that, and we were 500ft under the cloud and still 400ft or so above water. It was gorgeous, vivid, and crisper than I'd ever seen anything - partly due to my heightened concentration and senses, I'm certain. I straightened and went back to the airport slowly. Runway 12 popped up so quickly I was almost over it before I knew it, but with a shallow direct headwind, landing was smooth and easy.

My heart was sure racing though!

As we got into the inn where we were staying, the guy at the front desk said the other 4 pilots that were scheduled to come in canceled after overflying the area earlier in the day. Apparently that hole in the marine layer did not form until 30 minutes before we showed up. By the time we got our stuff into the room, it was already closing, and 30 minutes later, the sky was completely covered everywhere.

Hey, I DID think 4PM would give the best chance, right? *grin*

Shelter Cove itself is just astounding, and I fell in love with it. I am DEFINITELY going back. But that's a different story.

The next day - today - we had to come back. We woke up. That white sheet was hanging all over the place. The guy at the inn said "just stay for as long as you need", and I took him up on it. We spent a lazy morning doing this and that, as I was watching the sky. Around noon, I saw a couple tears starting to form, then closing, then opening again. That's all I needed; all I wanted to see was that the layer was the same as the previous day. It sure was.

We took off less than an hour later, same runway 12. As soon as we got off the ground, I pointed the nose 30 degrees to the right, towards the ocean, set myself on a steady-but-not-too-steep climb, and ignored pretty much everything but the AI, just like I've been taught under the hood, and in actual clouds (thank goodness for good instructors that showed me what it really felt like). As we hit the fog I felt... well, nothing really. I wasn't looking outside. My eyes were fixed on the instruments. It took less than a minute and then we popped out into a beautiful blue sky. I was pointed a bit to the right of where I wanted to be heading (at about 170), which was perfectly fine; it was easy enough to turn back towards the coast and head back to CCR.

And as if this wasn't enough excitement, we then decided to make a lunch and fuel stop at Ukiah on the way back. It's a beautiful spot, except that it's surrounded by pretty steep hills and mountains requiring one to fly at 5500ft from the northwest (as we were), until the very last moment where you come out and it all drops rather dramatically into a valley and a 600ft elevation airport. So I got to do another cool maneuver, forward-slipping 4000ft very rapidly into a left pattern, sinking faster than I ever have before. Oddly enough I never felt in such solid control of a forward slip before either. My copilot said it was the only time she felt nervous at all, because we were at such an extreme attitude with that rather violent slip it very much confused her system. Oh, and someone was taking off as we were overflying like that (we coordinated well on the radio, and it was kinda neat actually). But the pattern entry was at perfect altitude, angle and distance. I was so proud of myself for just how precisely the maneuver ended up getting executed... and oh, the adrenaline rush. Yow.

The last leg of the trip was quite uneventful. But I needed that after all the rest.

What an incredible experience!

Wow... you not only got the adrenaline rushes all pilots crave, you also managed to impress the girl! :rolleyes: :(
 
Get your instrument rating though.
+1.

The Bay Area is a good place to do it too. You get lots of days with benign low clouds, especially in the summer, as you found out.

I remember someone who went one of his solo student X-Cs to Little River, also on the coast, and was stuck there for a number of days.
 
You are setting yourself up to become a statistic. You got away with it this time but now that you have done it once you will be more inclined to try it again. NEVER descend in a hole that you can't climb out of. If you had to maintain a 45 degree bank to go down through it could you climb out at that bank angle? Climbing through the clouds IFR as a 90hr pilot is plain stupid. I don't care if it is 400ft or 4000' don't do it again. I followed your training on the other board and thought you were pretty level headed. You really need to review your decisions on this one. Don
This was my thought. I'm a 90 hour pilot too and if this had been my flight I'd be cringing at how many chances I took with someone else's life and then kicking my own ass for the next few days. Bloody irresponsible.

Maybe I'm boring but unless you're going up in a stunt plane aircraft are the wrong vehicles in which to seek adrenaline rushes. The margin for error is just too freaking narrow.
 
Stay legal my friends

get your IR

Nothing wrong with doing a little cranking and banking to get through a hole but NOT if the ceiling is only a couple hundred feet and you're going through the only hole! That sucker could have closed up in a minute or two

As others have said, instrument flying is much more than just fixating on the AI.
 
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Instrument rating is, of course, in the offing. I already have taken a couple instructed flights towards that; no rush to complete it though, I expect it will take a year or two. Those lessons have allowed me to feel comfortable enough taking off into a 300ft thin static layer on an otherwise beautiful day in a remote location on the oceanfront headed out with no chances of hitting anything. I also chatted to a couple other pilots located there who gave me the skinny on how to do it properly.

To thomascannon who would have been descending and hitting me - only if you wouldn't have been on the radio. ATC would have had nothing to do with it - it's an uncontrolled airport. OAK ctr can't even get you on radar over there until you're at about 4000ft, due to terrain features (steep hills descending into the ocean).

Mechanical failures - like a lost vac pump - would have killed us over there (or in those mountains) anyway. Honestly, actually having an ability to execute this one and land in funny circumstances like that (and no training is worth actual experience) would have given us a small chance to survive, not the other way around. IMO, anyway (of course).

To Yakdriver - my apologies if it wasn't clear. Of course I could climb out of it. That was the point, after all; it was big enough for a small plane to fit through. The other way I could have gone in and out, obviously, was to make a big elliptical, then duck right in straight (it's easy enough to lose 300ft altitude over 1000ft), like I did with the one previous. But doing it with the tight turn was a lot more fun, allowed me to continue practicing my control (I try at least a couple of standard training maneuvers pretty much every flight, just to keep in practice) and made for a good story. The corkscrew was my choice, not a necessity. The visuals were excellent.

ChrisRikli - not seeking adrenaline rushes. But I sure got them! as for the lady - I asked her permission to try, and let her know why and how it was dangerous. We spent several minutes discussing it each time. On the way in, as we were flying along the coast; on the way out, before we took off. Honestly, this was as much for me as for her. She's very level-headed and it was great to have a good sounding board. In the end, landing there on a clear day involves gusty air moving unexpectedly in all sorts of directions (read the AFD for 0q5, as well as various info online). That would have been a lot more challenging on that little strip on the ocean, and what I was more nervous about before heading out. Trading in a duck into a clear hole wide enough for the Cessna under a thin 1000ft high layer for totally calm winds? sign me up.

With that said, I will suggest that I did not do anything that I haven't done at least a few times before - including flying through a cloud (although obviously I had never done it alone, I have done so with instructors for a couple hours already in actual clouds, in particular since getting my license). The main point of that is that I don't lose my senses or orientation nor panic when spending a few minutes in instrument conditions, which is that well-known, big VFR killer (after all, it's not the actual cloud that kills you - it's usually the stuff you hit as you panic while trying to get out of it). Can I fly an ILS? hell no. Can I keep the plane's attitude and level for a minute? hell yes. The setting was perfect for me to try it, and I would absolutely do it again in these conditions, no question, for practice if nothing else. And by the way, it was interesting in that sense - for some reason as I was climbing my body kept insisting we were turning left, which I ignored as the AI and TI were of course showing otherwise (a very shallow climbing right turn, as planned). The odd sensation disappeared about 20 seconds later. I think it was my brain translating "if we turn left we hit the side of a hill" into "OMGOMGOMG I can't see we're gonna hit a hill!". That was most intriguing.
 
You've seen the magic you can work with an airplane - and you've had a bite (a free bite, blessedly) at what can go wrong.

No one of us can claim we've never pushed a reg from time to time - it's what we learn from our experiences that defines us. I trust you've learned that, with modest additional training (for the IR), you can vastly improve the utility of the certificate you proudly carry.

Be safe, my friend.
 
Instrument rating is, of course, in the offing. I already have taken a couple instructed flights towards that; no rush to complete it though, I expect it will take a year or two. Those lessons have allowed me to feel comfortable enough taking off into a 300ft thin static layer on an otherwise beautiful day in a remote location on the oceanfront headed out with no chances of hitting anything. I also chatted to a couple other pilots located there who gave me the skinny on how to do it properly.

To thomascannon who would have been descending and hitting me - only if you wouldn't have been on the radio. ATC would have had nothing to do with it - it's an uncontrolled airport. OAK ctr can't even get you on radar over there until you're at about 4000ft, due to terrain features (steep hills descending into the ocean).

Mechanical failures - like a lost vac pump - would have killed us over there (or in those mountains) anyway. Honestly, actually having an ability to execute this one and land in funny circumstances like that (and no training is worth actual experience) would have given us a small chance to survive, not the other way around. IMO, anyway (of course).

To Yakdriver - my apologies if it wasn't clear. Of course I could climb out of it. That was the point, after all; it was big enough for a small plane to fit through. The other way I could have gone in and out, obviously, was to make a big elliptical, then duck right in straight (it's easy enough to lose 300ft altitude over 1000ft), like I did with the one previous. But doing it with the tight turn was a lot more fun, allowed me to continue practicing my control (I try at least a couple of standard training maneuvers pretty much every flight, just to keep in practice) and made for a good story. The corkscrew was my choice, not a necessity. The visuals were excellent.

ChrisRikli - not seeking adrenaline rushes. But I sure got them! as for the lady - I asked her permission to try, and let her know why and how it was dangerous. We spent several minutes discussing it each time. On the way in, as we were flying along the coast; on the way out, before we took off. Honestly, this was as much for me as for her. She's very level-headed and it was great to have a good sounding board. In the end, landing there on a clear day involves gusty air moving unexpectedly in all sorts of directions (read the AFD for 0q5, as well as various info online). That would have been a lot more challenging on that little strip on the ocean, and what I was more nervous about before heading out. Trading in a duck into a clear hole wide enough for the Cessna under a thin 1000ft high layer for totally calm winds? sign me up.

With that said, I will suggest that I did not do anything that I haven't done at least a few times before - including flying through a cloud (although obviously I had never done it alone, I have done so with instructors for a couple hours already in actual clouds, in particular since getting my license). The main point of that is that I don't lose my senses or orientation nor panic when spending a few minutes in instrument conditions, which is that well-known, big VFR killer (after all, it's not the actual cloud that kills you - it's usually the stuff you hit as you panic while trying to get out of it). Can I fly an ILS? hell no. Can I keep the plane's attitude and level for a minute? hell yes. The setting was perfect for me to try it, and I would absolutely do it again in these conditions, no question, for practice if nothing else. And by the way, it was interesting in that sense - for some reason as I was climbing my body kept insisting we were turning left, which I ignored as the AI and TI were of course showing otherwise (a very shallow climbing right turn, as planned). The odd sensation disappeared about 20 seconds later. I think it was my brain translating "if we turn left we hit the side of a hill" into "OMGOMGOMG I can't see we're gonna hit a hill!". That was most intriguing.



If you've had instrument training i'm sure climbing through a thin fog layer is not that difficult. I've only had a few instrument lessons and i'm sure I could do it, but you won't find me in the clouds without an instructor until I pass my checkride.

Its illegal and posting on here that you did something illegal on purpose, is pretty stupid.
 
If you've had instrument training i'm sure climbing through a thin fog layer is not that difficult. I've only had a few instrument lessons and i'm sure I could do it, but you won't find me in the clouds without an instructor until I pass my checkride.

Its illegal and posting on here that you did something illegal on purpose, is pretty stupid.

Well... it IS class G airspace. On the way down I broke no regs that I am aware of.

On the way up, there WERE those tears and I was aiming for one climbing up (for what it's worth, which admittedly isn't much). Visibility both above and below the layer was at least 10 miles (easy). Beautiful day. Was I particularly concerned about whether I went through it or not? honestly, no, it didn't seem like a big deal and I was obviously prepared to and happy to climb through for the little bit necessary. You know, it's a bit like exceeding the speed limit on the freeway by 5MPH or not making a full stop when no one's around (Texas and California residents know of which I speak).

Also note that the cloud or mist was so thin I could "see through it" - the sun was quite visible, and made it kinda translucent (I hope this makes some sense). I had plenty of other visual clues available. So sure, I get what you're saying, but you know, if all you ever do is stay so far in your comfort zone, what happens when you are violently thrown out of it not by choice? I maintain, as I always have, that every time I go out there and do something that has an element of risk, I apply myself just a bit more than before, stretch my own boundaries a little bit so that I can continue to expand my capabilities. I have tons of room to go in flying. I wouldn't have attempted this at all if I hadn't had the time in actual clouds with an instructor before, in non-perfect conditions (as yesterday was) and location. But It was a good opportunity to push a bit, and I'm happy I did.

Search another thread I started about going to Vegas. I eventually decided not to do that one - not because of the technical challenge, but because of the time factor. I had no pressure yesterday. It was just a good opportunity to try something I felt confident I could do.
 
I've flown to Shelter Cove boo coo times and it's a great airport to fly to!

.....on a clear day with unlimited visibility. The fact of the matter is it is surrounded by inhospitable terrain and cold, rough water, and it has sheer dropoffs at each end. If you flub the landing or takeoff, or have an engine out, you will end up in the drink if you're lucky, at which you might have ten minutes of time in the water to make it to shore if you survive the ditching impact. If you're unlucky you will smash yourself to pieces beneath a rocky cliff or impact a steep hillside. If you had to do a go-around, you would have likely ended up back in the soup. Then where do you go? Make the wrong turn and you smack yourself into a mountain. (I had to do a go around once because there were two golfers crossing the field.)

Shelter Cove has no published approaches, and most of the coastal airports that do have minimums that are too high to do much good. The last time I flew in to the area, I had to divert to Crescent City, and I flew the ILS to minimums on the approach, which is the norm when the marine layer rolls in. I have to agree with others that it really wasn't a wise decision to attempt a landing in those conditions, especially at that field.
 
The cold water is another issue. Really, if you lose the engine at low altitude you are dead. When I go out before sunrise to duck hunt on the chesapeake, in winter, i do so at 6 knots in a 25 knot boat unless i have a full moon or something. Hitting something partially submerged and sinking even just 100 yards from shore is fatal
 
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I have to admit... I felt like I was reading what could very well have been the beginning of an NTSB report. The only acceptable time to break a reg is when its necessary for safety of flight. Flying through IMC as a low time VFR only pilot is plain old irresponsible. Heck, it would be irresponsible for a HIGH time VFR only pilot. I don't care if you "knew" it could have been pulled off safely, that's exactly the attitude that will set you up for an accident in the future. It's what you don't know that will kill you. It's also worthy to note that many an unsuspecting pilot has followed their AI straight into the ground. 400' above the ground isn't a very good place to realize you're in an unusual attitude.

Another word of advice: "Pushing the envelope" is all fine and good (as long as you stay safe and legal). But it's probably NOT a particularly good idea to start testing the waters and pushing the envelope when you have passengers on board. Save that for when you're solo or with a CFI.

I don't doubt your capabilities as a pilot. It's (what I perceive as) your nonchalant attitude towards busting regs that concerns me.
 
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ChrisRikli - not seeking adrenaline rushes. But I sure got them! as for the lady - I asked her permission to try, and let her know why and how it was dangerous. We spent several minutes discussing it each time. On the way in, as we were flying along the coast; on the way out, before we took off. Honestly, this was as much for me as for her. She's very level-headed and it was great to have a good sounding board. In the end, landing there on a clear day involves gusty air moving unexpectedly in all sorts of directions (read the AFD for 0q5, as well as various info online). That would have been a lot more challenging on that little strip on the ocean, and what I was more nervous about before heading out. Trading in a duck into a clear hole wide enough for the Cessna under a thin 1000ft high layer for totally calm winds? sign me up.
Maybe I'm just feeling conservative because a very experienced guy lots of us on PoA knew went in yesterday in beautiful, cool VFR weather. Or maybe our flight training has given us different perspectives. I dunno.

But you're the PIC. Your passenger, unless they're a certificated pilot, shouldn't be a factor in your decision making process unless it's to induce you to not take chances and make safer decisions. A non-pilot doesn't have the education or experience to be engaged in ADM.

You closed several links in an accident chain and got away with it. The thing that concerns me is that you don't seem interested in doing anything but rationalizing.

This isn't personal. My interest here is in keeping you and your pax alive, nothing more.
 
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Well... it IS class G airspace. On the way down I broke no regs that I am aware of.

Well, you DID say you flew through a cloud... Class G has no minimums from clouds but you still have to stay clear of them.
 
A lot of posts already on the accident chains and rationalization.

It looks like your Class G is only to 1200ft AGL, then Class E.
Class G is still 1mile VIS and CLEAR OF CLOUDS. Then Class E is 3nm VIS with the normal cloud clearance requirements. Were you on top before 1200 MSL?

To openly admit to violating clear of cloud and visibility requirements on a public forum is not smart.

Maybe the pilots that did not get through the marine layer were the smarter pilots.
 
A lot of posts already on the accident chains and rationalization.

It looks like your Class G is only to 1200ft AGL, then Class E.
Class G is still 1mile VIS and CLEAR OF CLOUDS. Then Class E is 3nm VIS with the normal cloud clearance requirements. Were you on top before 1200 MSL?

To openly admit to violating clear of cloud and visibility requirements on a public forum is not smart.

Maybe the pilots that did not get through the marine layer were the smarter pilots.

Yes. The cloud top was below 1200 both in and out, with VFR conditions. The cloud bottom was somewhere between 900 and 1100 in that area. I did not violate visibility (see below; I COULD see through the layer, it was that thin, just not very clearly).

And from the bottom it looks a lot different than from the top. From the top it was a sheet of white. No going through that of course. But you could see right through it from the bottom - like I said, it was sort of translucent with the sun behind it. If a plane flew above I would see it, but it was clear sky so there was nothing to look at besides the sun. That's why I waited to see the tears to form, to validate that perception, and it did. Had it not, we would have stayed another night (I already reserved the room). If I really needed to, I could easily lift my head, look at the sun, climb towards it at any point. I just didn't want to.

Let me post some pictures (if I can figure out how to do it on the forum), maybe it will help explain it better. When I went through my primary training, my instructor put me through what sure looked like clouds several times with the question "can you see behind it?" and if I said "yes" or even "sort of" then he said "then it doesn't count as a cloud, you can go through it". Was he wrong? these were those kinds of clouds, the very thin misty ones you could kinda see through (if not very clearly). I'm honestly asking.

As for the other posts - look, you weren't there. I do appreciate the input, not being defensive, I obviously thought it was a stretch which is why we discussed it for several minutes. I wasn't looking for decision making, just input - and of course her input counted, I'm not that arrogant. But please, don't assume my risk management is faulty just because I posted an excited "what a cool time I had flying!" thread on a random public forum. I didn't attempt to share all the details with you, and even if I tried, I couldn't have - that's usually the problem with post-facto reports. I am eager to learn, and I strive to do it all the time. I'll take suggestions and recommendations, but what's the point behind the rest? if I was so scared of flying, I wouldn't be doing it (I hope anyway). I guess that's what I don't entirely understand.
 
I've flown to Shelter Cove boo coo times and it's a great airport to fly to!

.....on a clear day with unlimited visibility. The fact of the matter is it is surrounded by inhospitable terrain and cold, rough water, and it has sheer dropoffs at each end. If you flub the landing or takeoff, or have an engine out, you will end up in the drink if you're lucky, at which you might have ten minutes of time in the water to make it to shore if you survive the ditching impact. If you're unlucky you will smash yourself to pieces beneath a rocky cliff or impact a steep hillside. If you had to do a go-around, you would have likely ended up back in the soup. Then where do you go? Make the wrong turn and you smack yourself into a mountain. (I had to do a go around once because there were two golfers crossing the field.)

Shelter Cove has no published approaches, and most of the coastal airports that do have minimums that are too high to do much good. The last time I flew in to the area, I had to divert to Crescent City, and I flew the ILS to minimums on the approach, which is the norm when the marine layer rolls in. I have to agree with others that it really wasn't a wise decision to attempt a landing in those conditions, especially at that field.

I had plenty of room for a go around without having to hit the layer - visibility was excellent (I could climb to 800-900ft if I needed to, but remember, it's a 60ft elevation strip). It was verified en route and when I did the first go around above the clouds in the vicinity of that hole, and as soon as I got under (it was my first concern). WX briefing stated same.

In other words, the conditions for landing were fantastic. In a place like Shelter Cove now that I've been there, I would be far more concerned with gusty winds smashing me to the cliffs, and would not attempt a landing in bright clear day if it was windy. Flubbing a landing is far more likely in those conditions than in the stable, static air that I landed in. Not so?

And if I didn't like the landing, I would climb right back out through that same hole and head to Garberville, which was the first instinct.
 
I don't doubt your capabilities as a pilot. It's (what I perceive as) your nonchalant attitude towards busting regs that concerns me.

I DO doubt my capabilities as a pilot. I don't have a nonchalant attitude towards breaking regs (if I had THAT, I'd be climbing down through that "knowing I could make it", or doing a host of other things that I see so many pilots do, like "trusting the fuel guy" or not completing pre-flight checklists). Please accept that this sort of judgment is a bit kneejerk. At least Don acknowledged from having read a lot of my other posts (in another forum mostly) that I'm pretty level-headed - he had some context, so he was surprised within that context. I WAS excited when made this post, so I skipped all the boring (from a story perspective) validation stuff I did. This wasn't the point. Just wanted to share the experience with other pilots, you know?
 
I WAS excited when made this post, so I skipped all the boring (from a story perspective) validation stuff I did. This wasn't the point. Just wanted to share the experience with other pilots, you know?
I know what you mean. Just be aware that sharing war stories on an internet message board is different than sharing them in person with your friends. Unfortunately.

Get your instrument rating, stay out of the clouds until then and be safe. Oh, and have fun.
 
Here are three pictures.

The first one is the marine layer from the top. No going through that (heck, I probably wouldn't want to do it IFR, let alone now).

The second one is the hole from the bottom a bit after we landed.

The third is the same hole a bit later still, already closing down.

Look at the second picture again. See the blue sky on the right, and then the sort of greyish on the left with those thin cloudy wispy things? that's what I meant. The next day I had something similar going on all over, but with the sun behind it which was easy to see.

Maybe that makes more sense?
 
To thomascannon who would have been descending and hitting me - only if you wouldn't have been on the radio. ATC would have had nothing to do with it - it's an uncontrolled airport. OAK ctr can't even get you on radar over there until you're at about 4000ft, due to terrain features (steep hills descending into the ocean).

That's a partially incorrect assumption. Flying IFR without radar is done all of the time and was done for years and years before radar ever came into existence. If the game is being played as scripted, everyone operating in IMC is on an IFR flight plan and ATC keeps the airspace clear just in case you, well, lose a radio for instance.

Speaking of, even if we could hear each other on the radio, how would that prevent an accident if we can't see each other?

That all said, I am not really trying to give you a hard time so much as I would like to encourage you to just keep with it and learn how to do things like this in such a way that you have a better "out" if you need one. Really, flying IFR is easy when it's a layer a few hundred feet thick, as you've discovered. It's just a different animal when things don't work out as advertised. The ASOS might be looking up through the only hole that's around for miles, reporting a 1500' ceiling when really it's 200'. Or the tops could be a LOT higher than you thought. Or the temperature/dew point spread decide to become the same number while you're banked 45 degrees and trying to come down. Or any number of instrument failures, or electrical failures, or hey -- do you smell smoke?

There's also a (new) instrument approach to KLLR... for those of you who haven't noticed. RNAV to 29. Only brings you down to 1380' though. Special take off minimums as well. Worth a quick look if you have any interest in heading there.

I wish I was out flying right now. Damn holiday picnic.
 
You posted your pictures as I was posting my last message. Looks like Bay Area VFR weather to me! :yesnod:
 
I'm interested in your cloud question and how others translate - how much visible moisture constitutes a cloud? Do you switch carb heat on for a wisp of a cloud?
 
.....We took off less than an hour later, same runway 12. As soon as we got off the ground, I pointed the nose 30 degrees to the right, towards the ocean, set myself on a steady-but-not-too-steep climb, and ignored pretty much everything but the AI, just like I've been taught under the hood, and in actual clouds (thank goodness for good instructors that showed me what it really felt like). As we hit the fog I felt... well, nothing really. I wasn't looking outside. My eyes were fixed on the instruments. It took less than a minute and then we popped out into a beautiful blue sky.......

.....Instrument rating is, of course, in the offing. I already have taken a couple instructed flights towards that; no rush to complete it though, I expect it will take a year or two. Those lessons have allowed me to feel comfortable enough taking off into a 300ft thin static layer on an otherwise beautiful day in a remote location on the oceanfront headed out with no chances of hitting anything. I also chatted to a couple other pilots located there who gave me the skinny on how to do it properly. .......

Gald I wasn't flying through that layer on an instrument flight plan! Do yourself a favor, go get your IR and at least be legal to be there and not risk an unknowing passengers life. It doesn't take much to loose it VMC to IMC, thankfully for your passenger you were lucky.

The second quote is worse than the first, some issues you need to understand, hope we don't read about you, glad your on the left coast.

A few things to ponder....you posted this where everyone can read it, including folks at FSDO/FAA.

Mods? Should this be moved to the "Dumbest thing you have done and lived to tell about it " thread?
 
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You posted your pictures as I was posting my last message. Looks like Bay Area VFR weather to me! :yesnod:

Yeah, I'm not unused to it... it's like that over here all the time. I've flown through that sort of thing pretty regularly through training without second though (literally, my instructor didn't consider these clouds), so I do feel quite comfortable with it. The only difference was that it was all over the sky, and I was climbing out of a new place, and doing a whole bunch of new stuff (for me), which made it exciting.

EDIT: Now that I look at my own pictures, I doubt the thing was even 200ft thick.

EDIT 2: and further thinking about it, I spent maybe 20 seconds moving through at a 500ft/min climb. So that's about 200ft (if even).
 
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I had plenty of room for a go around without having to hit the layer - visibility was excellent (I could climb to 800-900ft if I needed to, but remember, it's a 60ft elevation strip). It was verified en route and when I did the first go around above the clouds in the vicinity of that hole, and as soon as I got under (it was my first concern). WX briefing stated same.

In other words, the conditions for landing were fantastic. In a place like Shelter Cove now that I've been there, I would be far more concerned with gusty winds smashing me to the cliffs, and would not attempt a landing in bright clear day if it was windy. Flubbing a landing is far more likely in those conditions than in the stable, static air that I landed in. Not so?

And if I didn't like the landing, I would climb right back out through that same hole and head to Garberville, which was the first instinct.

I'm not trying to get in your grill over the whole thing, just trying to offer constructive feedback. The situation you described SOUNDED bad but as you point out, you were there and we weren't. The pictures you posted look a little different than some of us imagined. Some of us that fly over and through the marine layer a lot typically expect to see a solid overcast with few if any holes.

Sometimes haze can turn a perfectly legal VFR condition into IMC, meaning you can still have Class E minimum visibilities but lose your horizon climbing or decending through a haze layer. Flying through haze like that is still different than flying through fog - yes you have to treat it like IMC because you lose your horizon but you can still see other aircraft and terrain in time to avoid it.

As far as whether or not to land in windy conditions, certainly your call but you should have some proficiency and experience in landing in them. Certainly not a reason not to fly there on a nice day. I have bailed on a landing once due to the wind - the shoreline turbulence near the approach to Half Moon Bay was so bad once that it literally almost flipped my Arrow upside down. Needless to say I bailed from the area.
 
I'm not trying to get in your grill over the whole thing, just trying to offer constructive feedback. The situation you described SOUNDED bad but as you point out, you were there and we weren't. The pictures you posted look a little different than some of us imagined. Some of us that fly over and through the marine layer a lot typically expect to see a solid overcast with few if any holes.

Right. Sorry about that. I was excited when I posted - try to imagine me chatting with ya over coffee or beer just after coming back. I suppose it kinda makes things more exciting than they really were *blush*

EDIT: if it helps with context, keep in mind that I am new to this, so things that you guys with tons of time would not even shrug at (when actually there) do still seem pretty exciting to me. I don't know any other pilots in person that I could go hang around with, so this is sort of my only outlet for adventure sharing. Alright? no need to get overly excited. Like my instructor with his 20,000 hours used to say, you can't learn if you don't try, and as long as you land, walk away and the plane still runs afterwards, you're doing great (he's the one who stuck me in the middle of a real full-blooded cloud at night and told me to get myself out - that's breaking regulations right there on his part, and yet I am fully appreciative of that experience). I was actively encouraged to try things out. I am starting new training sessions in the coming couple weeks on a retractable 182, and will be including some high altitude work too, with the local commander of CAP - because I wanna join those guys if I can. I've flown 22 hours since earning my PPL, and over 5 of them have been with a CFI. So can I at least get a couple "that sounded cool" in addition to the "FAA will getcha"? come on, let me have that virtual brewsky with ya guys.
 
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I'll make one last comment before I have to jump off the thread: for what it's worth, I felt a lot safer and better prepared taking off yesterday than I do in some regular but very gusty variable windy landings at my home airport, or did getting into Harris Ranch's 30ft wide strip at twilight on a clear day for the one time I went there. Does that mean I was right? no, of course not (acknowledged). But it doesn't make me crazy.
 
Late to the thread, but much of this (especially after seeing the photos) reminds of the "lean forward" thread on another board;) (i.e. a little imbelishing)

Photo #2 seemed pretty harmless; however, I wasn't there to see where you did your "spiral down" nor do you have a picture of your climb out "in Class G" staying clear of clouds.
 
I have to admit... I felt like I was reading what could very well have been the beginning of an NTSB report. The only acceptable time to break a reg is when its necessary for safety of flight. Flying through IMC as a low time VFR only pilot is plain old irresponsible. Heck, it would be irresponsible for a HIGH time VFR only pilot. I don't care if you "knew" it could have been pulled off safely, that's exactly the attitude that will set you up for an accident in the future. It's what you don't know that will kill you. It's also worthy to note that many an unsuspecting pilot has followed their AI straight into the ground. 400' above the ground isn't a very good place to realize you're in an unusual attitude.

Another word of advice: "Pushing the envelope" is all fine and good (as long as you stay safe and legal). But it's probably NOT a particularly good idea to start testing the waters and pushing the envelope when you have passengers on board. Save that for when you're solo or with a CFI.

I don't doubt your capabilities as a pilot. It's (what I perceive as) your nonchalant attitude towards busting regs that concerns me.


I am a new pilot. However, I agree with Matt - I was worried as I read the story. For many reasons.

Stay safe.
 
Late to the thread, but much of this (especially after seeing the photos) reminds of the "lean forward" thread on another board;) (i.e. a little imbelishing)

Photo #2 seemed pretty harmless; however, I wasn't there to see where you did your "spiral down" nor do you have a picture of your climb out "in Class G" staying clear of clouds.

Like I mentioned several times in the thread, I was undoubtedly embellishing. I had a terrific experience and was in a bit of a "high" when I came back and tried to share with y'all. With the hindsight of three days, it wasn't nearly as exciting as it seemed at the time.

I don't have the pictures you ask for because they weren't being taken... they weren't interesting enough to take. I took a picture of the hole after coming down because *I* thought it was so cool; as I look at them now, I don't even know why I was so excited. As for the takeoff, I climbed through something that is better described (as I have been told now several times by several people who know better than me) as mist or haze. I could see through it. So the part of the story that got everyone so concerned (and with good reason) should really not have. Mea Culpa.

At this point I feel more embarrassed than anything else, and have asked the mods to delete the thread entirely. I hope they grant me the request. I also promise to not post anymore, I can just stay as a silent participant.

Kim, out of all the stuff I did or happened last weekend, probably the least safe was when I was flying over the hills on the way back and hit some turbulence that REALLY wanted to suck us down into them. I had a few pretty frightening seconds working the controls to get the plane stabilized again. Not sure why it happened, and I was above the required ground clearance, but it did. My takeoff from Shelter Cove was exciting to ME, with my limited experience, but it wouldn't have been to anyone who has been flying for a while. The same goes for the descend through the hole and the landing, or that "extreme" (to me) forward slip.

And with that, my fervent wish is that this thread is deleted, or at least allowed to languish in ignominy. I thank you all for your feedback, and promise to shut up from this point onwards

(...and thereby ending with a sad little pun).
 
The OP better start listening fast. A bevy of more experienced pilots are pointing out that this was not the smartest flight, even though everyone got down safely and a good time was had by all. They're right. Get the IR and punch through layers all you like, or stay VFR and know your limitations. The only time I ever even approached what I read here I had a hurricane at my six.

Sorry, way too many NTSB reports have started this way. Last thing I want to hear about is one of the POA denizens buying it from something stupid. Upsets my digestion.
 
Wow, nothing like reading about two people coming much closer to death than they realize.

I WILL tell you that what you did was stupid and irresponcible, just as I'd want people to tell me if I did the same. Flying VFR into IMC is one of the biggest killers of pilots.

PRAY that your local FSDO doesn't read this forum.
 
Now I'm getting angry, and I have every right to be at this point.

Wow, nothing like reading about two people coming much closer to death than they realize.

I WILL tell you that what you did was stupid and irresponcible, just as I'd want people to tell me if I did the same. Flying VFR into IMC is one of the biggest killers of pilots.

PRAY that your local FSDO doesn't read this forum.

Really? how can you tell? were you there? did you read the rest of the thread, and my capitulation at the end? could it be that what I've been trying to say repeatedly since I made the original post is that I exaggerated (embellished) the truth, on account of the excitement I felt coming back? in fact, how do you know I didn't lie about the whole entire thing? maybe I made up the story to get a rise out of you and others? maybe my entire account was mostly "story" and very little truth? do you have ANY facts to validate ANY of your comments? at all? anywhere? beyond the three pictures I posted from the actual trip, that is. Because that's the entire body of evidence you have at this point. My story does not constitute fact. Ask Henning, he'll tell you about facts missing, it's his favorite statement.

Why are you so willing to take one of my (very stupid, or maybe embellished, or possibly trollish) statements at face value (in the original post) and ignore plenty of others? does it give a sense of righteousness? do you stop and think before attacking people in this fashion, or is it just an instinct to be a soapbox preacher? and all these veiled threats about the FAA and FSDO - what are they good for?

I am going to make one thing very VERY clear (although of course you can choose to keep believing whatever bits you want and ignore whichever ones don't suit your determination): this was NOT IMC. For the brief moments I spent in "it", if a plane flew above, I'd see it. If a plane flew below, I'd see it. If a plane came nearby, I'd see it. I could look down and see the ocean while in that bit of misty haze or whatever you want to call it. If I tried real hard, I could even make out the hillsides a few thousand feet away. The one stupid thing I DID do is pretend it was more than it was, because I was busy with the AI and wasn't properly scanning during that time (although my pax was). Oh, and of course, the embellishment here. Fact is, I have flown with a CFI before in similar conditions, more than once, and was instructed every time that it was not IMC. I had and have no reason to think it was IMC. That second picture I posted shows exactly what it was, which was wispy and grey and misty and something I could pretend was a cloud so I can pat myself on the back about how brave I was (ha ha).

So just chill, alright? I'm sorry I made the post. I'm sorry I ever came to imagine that this forum was a place where I could share my flying excitement (yes, with all the silly chest beating that sometimes comes with it). That notion is certainly gone forever. I'll work on finding real-life pilots to talk to, so I don't have to ever try to this here again. I'm sorry I was stupid enough to consider flying in anything but absolutely pitch-perfect weather all around. Maybe I should just stop flying altogether, after all, it is a pretty risky activity as you know, and I'm in the most risky category (*). But this continuing harping based on absolutely nothing other than that you don't know me and it's safe to be a jerk to people online is getting real tired by now. You have no facts, and nothing to base all this one. Some of the folks here actually provided constructive criticism. Your post (as are a few others) is simply offensive.

(*) that's sarcasm. Just in case.
 
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Moderators, PLEASE lock this thread. I'm begging you.
 
In the situation you described you might see another aircraft just in time to run into it. Same goes for a tower, rock, tree, or anything else. You endangered yourself, and worse yet, your unwitting passenger.
 
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