my latest difficult certification

lbfjrmd

lbfjrmd

Line Up and Wait
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Senior AME/ATC AME
First Class Medical Question - DUI
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Dr. Fowler,

I am in the process of trying to obtain an FAA Class I medical; I have a unique situation and I am seeking your guidance and professional opinion on how to move forward.

Thirteen years ago, when I was a student at X, I was stopped by the City of X Police in September 2006 and charged with the following:

  1. Driving Under the Influence
  2. Driving Under the Influence – Less Safe
  3. Reckless Driving
  4. Speeding
  5. Failure to Maintain Lane
  6. New Resident 30 day/Driving without a License
At the time of the arrest, I was 60 days away from graduation and commissioning in the U.S. Navy. The DUI charges were dropped and I pled guilty to the remaining charges. My punishment would have been probation, but since I was graduating and commissioning, I chose to serve 30 days in jail instead because I would not have been able to commission with the U.S. Navy if I was on any sort of civil restraint or probation. In April of 2007, I had successfully completed all terms of the court order and was allowed to commission with the US Navy. Court order outlined below:



  1. Guilty: Reckless Driving, Speeding, Failure to Maintain Lane, New Resident 30 day/Driving without a License
  2. $6,012 in fines
  3. Attend a DUI risk reduction course licensed by the State of Georgia
  4. Complete 200 hrs of community service
  5. Serve 30 days in jail
  6. Attend 1 MADD panel
Since this incident in 2006, I have had no other alcohol related incidents. In September of 2007, I applied for an FAA Class III medical as part of the U.S. Navy’s Introductory Flight Screening (IFS). At the time, the question on the form asked if I had ever been found guilty of a DUI. The answer was “no” based on the information I provided to you above. I proceeded through flight training and have not needed an FAA medical since.

Over the past 12 years, I have truly excelled as a Pilot in the U.S. Navy and I have a genuine passion for aviation in general. I have served as a X pilot in X, FL, a T-44C Flight Instructor, the Operations Administrative Officer on the X, and I am now currently serving as X.

As I approached the X-year service mark with the U.S. Navy, I have started to examine my options for a civilian career with the commercial airlines, especially since they are in the peak of their hiring wave. On the FAA Medical Application, I noted that the question on block 18v has changed and now specifically asks about arrest and/or convictions.

I have done the legwork on collecting all of the documentation I need prior to reaching out to you. In my research, you come highly recommended and respected for dealing with unique situations like this. I say that it is unique because despite knowing that these were my charges, I have contacted the following offices and I am failing to find the expected and required information.



  1. The City of X does not have the police report – records are destroyed after 10 years. (I did submit to a BAC test and was over the limit but I have no record of the BAC)
  2. No history of the arrest exists on my FBI finger print/background check.
  3. No history of the arrest exists with City of X Arrest Records nor the X State File (GCIC file)
  4. No history of the traffic infractions exists on my DMV records in states where I’ve held a license (X and Y)
  5. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (National Driver Registry) shows no history of suspensions as my license was never suspended nor revoked.
The only record I have been able to obtain is the certified disposition from the City of x Court which makes no mention of the DUI arrest nor BAC

The DUI/DWI alcohol event disposition table form the AME’s Handbook states:

“If the single event was 10 or more years ago, the BAC or court records are unavailable, and the AME has no concerns, call AMCD at 405- 954-4821 or the RFS to discuss.”

Am I reading this correct? Is this an option for a case like this? I understand that you do not know me, and would most likely want a face-to-face meeting before stating that there are no issues, but is this an avenue that can be pursued? If this is not an option, how do I go about pursuing an FAA Class I Medical and can you help me?

Currently, the U.S. Navy is offering 3-year and 5-year commitment bonuses. This would take me to 15 years or 17 years of service, respectively. The difficulty of get a Class I medical would factor into my decision to sign the commitment contract and finish out to full retirement, versus, getting out now while the airlines are in the midst of a massive hiring wave. If it is going to be difficult to get a Class I medical, I would still like help pursuing it for the future, but I will most likely sign a 3- or 5-year commitment contract with the U.S. Navy. The deadline for my decision is 10 September.

I have attached all the documents that I mentioned for your review. Thank you for your time and advice regarding my situation. I look forward to speaking with you.



Very Respectfully,

X
 
No, if you had excelled in Naval Aviation you would’ve gotten helos instead of being forced into props! :D

Seriously though, seems like a massive PITA is in store for him. Does seem to have his chit together and sounds like a one time mistake. Seen that a lot in 20 yrs being in the military. Hopefully you can point him in the right direction.
 
he should prevail ... just gotta see how many FAA hoops he has to jump through.
 
I'm sure the FAA won't care, but... dude's paid for his mistake, several times over.
 
I like how every single story like this is somehow unique according to the person it happened to, even though we've all read the same exact story 100 times.

And FWIW, this looks like a clear "can I lie about this?" from the author.
 
I would have written back:

If the DMV and Mil Med Records search show only the one event, AND no BAC is available, Only FAA can issue it. You will need what you can, from the summary of the arrest (since the actual report is gone); a personal statement (Man I sure hope you are abstinent, and can substantiate that.....continuing to drink makes this one hard), DMV search + active duty mil records abstract, and a assessment by usually, a M.A. holding CADC according to FAA's scheme (not the current DSM5 scheme which is useless). To get that you need an older evaluator (training was different) or a PH.D. psychologist who understands the FAA criteria.
 
bbchien said:
I would have written back:

If the DMV and Mil Med Records search show only the one event, AND no BAC is available, Only FAA can issue it. You will need what you can, from the summary of the arrest (since the actual report is gone); a personal statement (Man I sure hope you are abstinent, and can substantiate that.....continuing to drink makes this one hard), DMV search + active duty mil records abstract, and a assessment by usually, a M.A. holding CADC according to FAA's scheme (not the current DSM5 scheme which is useless). To get that you need an older evaluator (training was different) or a PH.D. psychologist who understands the FAA criteria.
Click to expand...

I did!
 
At the time, the question on the form asked if I had ever been found guilty of a DUI.
...

On the FAA Medical Application, I noted that the question on block 18v has changed and now specifically asks about arrest and/or convictions.
Click to expand...

Good example of the seemingly endless expansion of the purview of the aeromedical standards to makes more and more cases more and more complicated.
 
A question for the docs, maybe it isn’t a fair question:

Do you get the feeling that FAA medical looks at some of these cases and says, “Even if the airman turns in everything we ask, this is someone that shouldn’t be flying and we will either deny or find something else to request”, or “This is an airman that should be flying and once every box gets checked we will issue”?
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Good example of the seemingly endless expansion of the purview of the aeromedical standards to makes more and more cases more and more complicated.
Click to expand...

I understand, but my take is more and more cases that just a few decades ago would have been treated with 'sorry' are now SI issuances.
 
Matthew said:
A question for the docs, maybe it isn’t a fair question:

Do you get the feeling that FAA medical looks at some of these cases and says, “Even if the airman turns in everything we ask, this is someone that shouldn’t be flying and we will either deny or find something else to request”, or “This is an airman that should be flying and once every box gets checked we will issue”?
Click to expand...

No i do not. I have handled more SI's in the last 10 years than i did in the 1st twenty!
 
lbfjrmd said:
I understand, but my take is more and more cases that just a few decades ago would have been treated with 'sorry' are now SI issuances.
Click to expand...

In this case the airman would not have had to answer yes, under the old rules, and there would not have been a cause for denial - isn’t that correct?

Of course it is good there is still a path to an SI.
 
lbfjrmd said:
No i do not. I have handled more SI's in the last 10 years than i did in the 1st twenty!
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Lou, why is that? Are more people becoming more interested in aviation? So AMEs are coming across more medical isssues? Or is it something about the aging population issues?
 
benw571 said:
Lou, why is that? Are more people becoming more interested in aviation? So AMEs are coming across more medical isssues? Or is it something about the aging population issues?
Click to expand...

more pilots and a more flexible FAA
 
mryan75 said:
And FWIW, this looks like a clear "can I lie about this?" from the author.
Click to expand...

I disagree. It sounds more like someone with 12 years of experience working with a bureaucracy and he knows the requested documentation is not available. I read it more as a “how is this handled” and is it possible.

My advice to him would really be suck it up, do another 8 years and take the retirement. I never understand people who voluntarily get out at 12 or 15 years.
 
bflynn said:
My advice to him would really be suck it up, do another 8 years and take the retirement. I never understand people who voluntarily get out at 12 or 15 years.
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I share this opinion with you. Your retirement check won't make you rich but that money every month makes it easier to get there. You're still relatively young after 20 in the service if you signed right after school.

Getting hurt while you're in would suck, but getting hurt while you're out would suck more. My wife lost part of her leg, got med boarded out, if that happened while she was a civilian it would have been horrible.
 
Fiveslide said:
I share this opinion with you. Your retirement check won't make you rich but that money every month makes it easier to get there. You're still relatively young after 20 in the service if you signed right after school.

Getting hurt while you're in would suck, but getting hurt while you're out would suck more. My wife lost part of her leg, got med boarded out, if that happened while she was a civilian it would have been horrible.
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Ultimately he/she should do what's right for them. I do know several military officer pilots that stayed in longer and landed in a couple of really good executive-level jobs after they got out. The skills and discipline taught by the armed services are still valued pretty highly today.
 
Velocity173 said:
Seen that a lot in 20 yrs being in the military. Hopefully you can point him in the right direction.
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One of the key things I learned in 20 years in the Navy was to never ask a question you don't want to know the Navy's answer to. I suspect the same maxim applies to the FAA.
 
The advice was an extra thought. I just don’t get it when someone is that far along and stops. I know a chief that got out at 16 years, nickname now is Crazy.

Best of luck to your airman, regardless of his career decisions.
 
bflynn said:
I disagree. It sounds more like someone with 12 years of experience working with a bureaucracy and he knows the requested documentation is not available. I read it more as a “how is this handled” and is it possible.

My advice to him would really be suck it up, do another 8 years and take the retirement. I never understand people who voluntarily get out at 12 or 15 years.
Click to expand...

Because staying in gets to the point of being unbearable. Everyone is motivated about flying and serving when they start military flight school. Over time that fades and QOL issues arise. Even after 12-15 years.

Really all depends on what one has lined up after military life. I’ve got a friend who got out after 6 and makes twice what I make. No point in going to retirement in that situation. If the civilian counterpart makes the same or less, then putting up with the military BS to retirement might make sense.
 
Why not stay in the Navy full retirement I know someone who retired mid 40's went back to school got his BS/MBA in IT management went to work where I met him. He was diagnosed with cancer last year while it is in remission he was so glad to have that retirement and medical.
 
bflynn said:
I disagree. It sounds more like someone with 12 years of experience working with a bureaucracy and he knows the requested documentation is not available. I read it more as a “how is this handled” and is it possible.

My advice to him would really be suck it up, do another 8 years and take the retirement. I never understand people who voluntarily get out at 12 or 15 years.
Click to expand...

The retirement program has changed. I do not know when it was changed, but the benefits are no longer 50% after 20 years. It is more of a 401k style program.

My BIL is at 18 years and still under the 50% at 20 years, ramping up after that. He is also a West Point grad, so I do not know if that put in into a grandfather period for the retirement program.
 
texasag93 said:
The retirement program has changed. I do not know when it was changed, but the benefits are no longer 50% after 20 years. It is more of a 401k style program.

My BIL is at 18 years and still under the 50% at 20 years, ramping up after that. He is also a West Point grad, so I do not know if that put in into a grandfather period for the retirement program.
Click to expand...

Anyone that came in before 2005 are under the old retirement plan. 2005 to 2017 they can keep the old plan or opt into the new 401K style plan. After Jan 1, 2018 everyone is required to be on the new retirement plan.

And under the new plan you can get out before 20 and get some sort of pension. A full 20 doesn’t pay as much in the long run as the old 50 % retirement though.
 
The one thing you do get with the 20 and out if you are a certain age (and it's long before 60), is you continue the health benefits. That's often a great deal if you're double dipping as an independent contractor.
 
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