My First semi-emergency

[captvikki]

Hi Guys,

I am sorry I have not been online in awhile. I have been taking night school from ERAU and working at Sikorsky in CT. Anyway...the story

It was a cold day a few weeks ago and I had not flown in a couple of weeks. The plane was lonely and so was I so we took a flight. Did the pre-flight and run-up. No issues. It was cold, so I let my baby warm up for awhile and took off. There was a little bit of a ceiling, but it burned off during the pre-flight. Beautiful clear cold day. Flew around the area, checked out a couple of the ski slopes did a few turns around a point, slow flight you all know what I am talking about.

Came back to the pattern. Did my first landing, but was a little too high and fast for my comfort level (but did a nice slip). Decided to go-around. Went around and did a beautiful landing. At this point the airport was getting busy with all the people realizing it was a beautiful day to fly. Taxied back on 29 had to wait for a couple of people to take off. As I took off the second time, something did not "feel right" and I smelled something in the cockpit burn, just faintly. I checked my airspeed, mixture and flaps all good. Continued the takeoff reached pattern altitude and turned crosswind then downwind. About midway down wind the airplane started backfiring and shuddering. I felt like the motor was ready to go. I quickly made an announcement that I was on downwind and I was having engine trouble. Nobody answered but I did not care what could they do? I was in fine shape my altitude was right on. I was perfect distance from the airport, and I had always been taught an engine out landing on base, so no problem. I turned from base to final with the airplane still jerking around. On final I looked a little low so I thought I would put in a bit of power to see if I had any. Nothing happened, pushed in a bit more still nothing, then suddenly it raced, oops too much. Pulled the power back and landed. Just after landing the prop came to a complete standstill and the engine died.
I announced on the CTAF that I had landed my engine quit and would try to coast to the intersection. Still no reply. I made it to the intersection, pulled off and wondered if anyone even knew I was stuck. I climbed out and started walking.
After many weeks of discussion we determined that it was carb ice. I turned it on when I came in to land the first time, but kept it off in the pattern after that. The engine is a Lycoming O-360-A. The same guy who taught me the engine out landing said it probably was not carb ice. What do you all think? We took off the cowling looking for any issues. It was its second flight since the annual. First flight was fine. The spark plugs were only hand tight but I am not sure that was it. One thing for sure. I am putting carb heat on in the pattern now.

:smile:

 

[dmccormack]

I'd take the Mechanic up with you if he insists its carb ice.

Sounds like you handled it well!

FWIW, I don't square any turns on engine out -- it's a continuous turn back to the runway. Better to be high, as you can slip, than low. Who cares if you touch down 1/2 way down a 4000' strip?

 

[Geico266]

It always good to assess your actions in an emergency. Sound like you handled it well. However, you need to assess why you didn't pull carb heat at the first sign of a sputter after pulling the throttle in the pattern.

Dan M. has it right about engine outs in the pattern. Practice landing long from time to time. There is nothing magical about "hitting the numbers" it's just an aiming point for the instructor. Loose power on final and you are screwed if you are not high or fast enough. Shoot for the middle 1/3rd, it's your runway, use it.

Why were the plugs loose?

 

[AdamZ]

What type of plane was it? Cessna? If so I suspect it is a good possibility If a piper product I'm not so sure only because I've been flying pipers and Tigers for 6-7 years and have never experienced carb ice but that dosen't mean it can't happen.

It sounds like you got advice from your CFI did you go back and chat with the A&P and get his opinion? I would. Regardless next flight I wouln't leave the pattern for an hour.

 

[nyoung]

I have a Lycoming O-360-A4A in my Cherokee 180. I've flown it for about 1100 hrs in widely varying weather conditions from 100 degrees days to -10F. Rain, dry, snow, you name it.

I am yet to have a single instance of carb ice. Talking to other Cherokee 180 pilots, the plane seems to be close to immune to carb ice.

I don't know what plane you are flying, but if it is a Cherokee, I'd be quite skeptical of the 'carb ice' description... especially for a plane that had just come out of annual inspection.

Hi Guys,

I am sorry I have not been online in awhile. I have been taking night school from ERAU and working at Sikorsky in CT. Anyway...the story

It was a cold day a few weeks ago and I had not flown in a couple of weeks. The plane was lonely and so was I so we took a flight. Did the pre-flight and run-up. No issues. It was cold, so I let my baby warm up for awhile and took off. There was a little bit of a ceiling, but it burned off during the pre-flight. Beautiful clear cold day. Flew around the area, checked out a couple of the ski slopes did a few turns around a point, slow flight you all know what I am talking about.

Came back to the pattern. Did my first landing, but was a little too high and fast for my comfort level (but did a nice slip). Decided to go-around. Went around and did a beautiful landing. At this point the airport was getting busy with all the people realizing it was a beautiful day to fly. Taxied back on 29 had to wait for a couple of people to take off. As I took off the second time, something did not "feel right" and I smelled something in the cockpit burn, just faintly. I checked my airspeed, mixture and flaps all good. Continued the takeoff reached pattern altitude and turned crosswind then downwind. About midway down wind the airplane started backfiring and shuddering. I felt like the motor was ready to go. I quickly made an announcement that I was on downwind and I was having engine trouble. Nobody answered but I did not care what could they do? I was in fine shape my altitude was right on. I was perfect distance from the airport, and I had always been taught an engine out landing on base, so no problem. I turned from base to final with the airplane still jerking around. On final I looked a little low so I thought I would put in a bit of power to see if I had any. Nothing happened, pushed in a bit more still nothing, then suddenly it raced, oops too much. Pulled the power back and landed. Just after landing the prop came to a complete standstill and the engine died.
I announced on the CTAF that I had landed my engine quit and would try to coast to the intersection. Still no reply. I made it to the intersection, pulled off and wondered if anyone even knew I was stuck. I climbed out and started walking.
After many weeks of discussion we determined that it was carb ice. I turned it on when I came in to land the first time, but kept it off in the pattern after that. The engine is a Lycoming O-360-A. The same guy who taught me the engine out landing said it probably was not carb ice. What do you all think? We took off the cowling looking for any issues. It was its second flight since the annual. First flight was fine. The spark plugs were only hand tight but I am not sure that was it. One thing for sure. I am putting carb heat on in the pattern now.

:smile:

 

[steingar]

Carb ice on a clear day is a bit weird, even in a Cessna. During the one experience I had I did not experience roughness, just loss of RPM.

Your story does remind us that we should fly patterns from which we can glide into a landing.

 

[brcase]

I'd take the Mechanic up with you if he insists its carb ice.

Sounds like you handled it well!

FWIW, I don't square any turns on engine out -- it's a continuous turn back to the runway. Better to be high, as you can slip, than low. Who cares if you touch down 1/2 way down a 4000' strip?

I do the rounded corners if I think there is any chance at all that I might be low. If I am obviously high I will fly square corners to help lose additional alititude. However I teach that in the pattern after turning downwind the 1st thing to do is turn toward the closest runway you can get to. Then adjust the pattern as necessary. Once you have landing planned then you can troubleshoot if you have time.

Some other comments:
I think Carb Ice is a good possiblity.

I have flown some Cherokees that were very prone to ice, But I think these had O-320 engines.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL



Brian

 

[dmccormack]

I do the rounded corners if I think there is any chance at all that I might be low. If I am obviously high I will fly square corners to help lose additional alititude. However I teach that in the pattern after turning downwind the 1st thing to do is turn toward the closest runway you can get to. Then adjust the pattern as necessary. Once you have landing planned then you can troubleshoot if you have time.

Some other comments:
I think Carb Ice is a good possiblity.

I have flown some Cherokees that were very prone to ice, But I think these had O-320 engines.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Brian

Aren't Continentals more prone to icing than Lycomings due to the intake manifold position?

As far as patterns -- it took me a bit of un-learning to get out of the square-pattern mindset.

With a high-wing tailwheel, I find a nice slipping left turn from downwind keeps everything in sight.

 

[captvikki]

I forgot to mention that it just had its annual a couple of weeks prior, but I had flown it once before this day. We think the plugs were just hand tightened a spoke with the mechanic about it. Usually we hang around for the annual, but this time we couldn't due to other commitments. The plane is an RV-6A.

 

[bbchien]

Sounds like a mag problem (NOT a mech!) to me. You need to pull the plugs and look at the signatures.

 

[ScottM]

This does not sound like carb ice either. Carb ice your engine would slowly lose power, I have never heard of carb ice causing back fires either.

Can you tell us what the air temps and any idea of the humidity level? One of the nice things about winter flying in clear dry air is that it is DRY air. Hard to get ice when there is little moisture around.

The hand tightened spark plug thing really has me wondering. You were able to loosen them yourself? If so that is not right at all.

Bruce: Are you thinking mag timing?

It kind of sounds a little like that, but I am still concerned about the loose spark plugs.

 

[Geico266]

I forgot to mention that it just had its annual a couple of weeks prior, but I had flown it once before this day. We think the plugs were just hand tightened a spoke with the mechanic about it. Usually we hang around for the annual, but this time we couldn't due to other commitments. The plane is an RV-6A.

Very unusual for any RV to have carb ice, particularly the RV-6.

In your initial post you talk about "something not being right on take off", seeing as how the plugs were loose I would ground the plane, have the A&P pull the cowl and do a complete re-inspection of the entire firewall forward.

Did the mechanic fail to tighten the mags also?

 

[dmccormack]

However I teach that in the pattern after turning downwind the 1st thing to do is turn toward the closest runway you can get to. Then adjust the pattern as necessary. Once you have landing planned then you can troubleshoot if you have time.

Another point worth making -- in an engine out it's perfectly acceptable to land downwind.A few Comm students have tried to continue downwind when I've pulled the power on the crosswind leg.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

In your initial post you talk about "something not being right on take off", seeing as how the plugs were loose I would ground the plane, have the A&P pull the cowl and do a complete re-inspection of the entire firewall forward.

Did the mechanic fail to tighten the mags also?

Who checks their plugs on preflight? Certainly not me. She would have no way of knowing they were lose until after she had the issue. Unless she herself re-checks EVERYTHING the A&P does on the annual.

 

[bbchien]

Scott, I meant, "ignition". I once had a mag that had just a little runout on a bearing, it would function well until we reduced power, then the shaft would not be held up against the bearing and the igintion would go all over the place.

We IRAN'd twice before we really found the problem. We went factory new- they are expensive suckers for what they are.

 

[ScottM]

Scott, I meant, "ignition". I once had a mag that had just a little runout on a bearing, it would function well until we reduced power, then the shaft would not be held up against the bearing and the igintion would go all over the place.

We IRAN'd twice before we really found the problem. We went factory new- they are expensive suckers for what they are.

Gotcha.

 

[Geico266]

Who checks their plugs on preflight? Certainly not me. He would have no way of knowing they were lose until after he had the issue. Unless he himself re-checks EVERYTHING the A&P does on the annual.

PO is not a He, "He" is a she, hence the name "captvikki".


Who said anything about preflight? If you read the original post closely, Capt.Vikki caught that the plugs were only hand tight when the pulled the cowl after the problem occured.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

PO is not a He, "He" is a she, hence the name "captvikki".

Hmm Assume, Makes an *ss out of me :smile:

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Who said anything about preflight? If you read the original post closely, Capt.Vikki caught that the plugs were only hand tight when she pulled the cowl after the problem occured.

The way you worded your original post it made it sound like she should have known they were loose before the flight; Atleast thats how I interpreted it.

 

[captvikki]

There was moisture in the air - snow on the ground sun was shining, snow was melting. Good thought about the mags. I still have not been able to fly since the incident due to lousy weather weekends. I have heard that O-320's on an RV don't get carb ice easily. Should I land with carb heat on?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

There was moisture in the air - snow on the ground sun was shining, snow was melting. Good thought about the mags. I still have not been able to fly since the incident due to lousy weather weekends. I have heard that O-320's on an RV don't get carb ice easily. Should I land with carb heat on?

Highly recommend a carb temp gauge of some sort - We had the carb temp option put into the JPI in the 182, and when I flew it last weekend I noticed that putting the carb heat on put the carb temp right INTO the danger zone. Since you are at a similar latitude, I would imagine you could run into the same issue this time of year. If you don't have a carb temp gauge, I'd leave it off by default, given what people have said here about the RV-6.

 

[jesse]

I noticed that putting the carb heat on put the carb temp right INTO the danger zone

BTDT, pulled carb heat, got carb ice. Not particularly fun.

 

[dillardrg]

captvikki,

If the aircraft has carb heat installed it should be used at all times when power is reduced regardless of the particular aircraft's reputation for carb ice. And regardless of the weather conditions.

There are a lot of different views on at what point to introduce carb heat. Some POHs say 1700 rpm some 2000 rpm. What is not in dispute is that it should be on when landing.

 

[gismo]

captvikki,

If the aircraft has carb heat installed it should be used at all times when power is reduced regardless of the particular aircraft's reputation for carb ice. And regardless of the weather conditions.

There are a lot of different views on at what point to introduce carb heat. Some POHs say 1700 rpm some 2000 rpm. What is not in dispute is that it should be on when landing.

AFaIK, there's a range of OAT where you shouldn't use carb heat which varies with airplane make/model. Typically that's around -10 to -20F but could be higher. With low engine power and cold OAT, carb heat could raise the temp of the air coming into the carb to just above freezing allowing the venturi temp drop to freeze it again. That said, this is unlikely to cause a problem unless you're in snow or cloud since at those low temps there's not much water in clear air.