My first flight with a new CFII

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
My newest 150 owner is a CFII, his aircraft is a C-150 with no radios, but he wished he could get it from OKH to AWO for a cover fitting by Aviation Covers.

I told him I would take it over and park it but he insisted he fly with me.

I'm OK with that, so we depart 07 OKH and find the airspeed indicator is staying at 0, We do a direct to AWO under 1000' over the water, I could see he was not comfortable with that. I had climbed to 1000' and leaned it to shudder, then enriched it to smooth, after about 3 minutes he started to push the mixture in, I prevented him from doing that and continued towards AWO, we entered the pattern at 1000' on the base to 16, reduced throttle to about 1200 RPM and start the glide to landing, I was a little high and started a slip to descend and he panicked, he had never seen that done in a little aircraft before.
After landing and departing the 150 we talked about flying the 150, and found he had never flown one before today, He had never been shown proper leaning procedures, nor had he ever done any no airspeed indicator flying.

I figure I have a few things to show this new 150 owner.because we must take this 150 to VAL Avionics in Salem Or to get a radio/transponder installed and he has never flown NorDo before. (SEA is between here and there)
 
You've got to be kidding me. Well, you do say he is new, but as a CFI-I, he must have had some experience. He has a few things to learn if he is to give his students a good appreciation for various aspects of flight.

How can a CFI-I not know how to slip or lean an engine? Has he spent his entire life at 3,000 AGL, just high enough to do the maneuvers?

I swear, we should encourage students to get an old CFI-I who has flown some charter and knows the air beyond 50+ miles from the airport and over 3,000 AGL.
 
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What kind of retard cover company doesn't know how to cover a 150? Cessna only made about umpteen million of them. The company is almost as stupid as the CFI.
 
Tom: Are you familiar with 91.7(b)? Especially the last sentence? If not, you should re-read it and then see if you want to edit or delete your original post.
 
steingar said:
What kind of retard cover company doesn't know how to cover a 150? Cessna only made about umpteen million of them. The company is almost as stupid as the CFI.
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That's between the owner and the cover company, but have you ever tried to fit a cover when you don't know where the antennas are located?

Sorry,,,,, I didn't know you were the cover expert. How many have you made?
 
Ron Levy said:
Tom: Are you familiar with 91.7(b)? Especially the last sentence? If not, you should re-read it and then see if you want to edit or delete your original post.
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How do you as a pilot determine if the airspeed indicator is working before flight?
 
Tom-D said:
How do you as a pilot determine if the airspeed indicator is working before flight?
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It should be indicating something on the takeoff roll. Isn't that pretty obvious?
 
Everskyward said:
It should be indicating something on the takeoff roll. Isn't that pretty obvious?
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When you are coming down the hill at OKH you don't have much choice, ditch or sky, your choice
 
Tom-D said:
That's between the owner and the cover company, but have you ever tried to fit a cover when you don't know where the antennas are located?

Sorry,,,,, I didn't know you were the cover expert. How many have you made?
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Tom, we have these things here called photographs, that you can use to show the cover manufacturers where the antennas are. We also have these really, really cool things called rulers, that allow you to measure where the antennas are relative to a fixed point or points.

I had a cover made for my 150. The manufacturer never saw it, and it fit like a glove because we used these tools I've mentioned. You should try using them some time, they'll make your life much better. I don't have a cover for my current airplane because we have these even cooler things called hangars.
 
Tom-D said:
When you are coming down the hill at OKH you don't have much choice, ditch or sky, your choice
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That would play a factor in your decision to stop or not but it doesn't change that fact that you can tell whether or not the airspeed indicator is working before flight. It doesn't tell you if it's working accurately but it at least comes off the zero peg.
 
Tom-D said:
I'm OK with that, so we depart 07 OKH and find the airspeed indicator is staying at 0, We do a direct to AWO under 1000' over the water, I could see he was not comfortable with that. I had climbed to 1000' and leaned it to shudder, then enriched it to smooth, after about 3 minutes he started to push the mixture in, I prevented him from doing that and continued towards AWO, we entered the pattern at 1000' on the base to 16, reduced throttle to about 1200 RPM and start the glide to landing, I was a little high and started a slip to descend and he panicked, he had never seen that done in a little aircraft before.
Click to expand...

You can easily see the airspeed indicator come alive on your takeoff roll, and should be looking to see when you hit rotation speed. The point at which that happens will be way different with one person or two. We had an instance where I went flying with a friend and the airspeed indicator wasn't working. We shut down right then and there. Turned out bugs can gotten into the pitot.

Yeah, I know any pilot worth his (or her) salt can fly a 150 sans airspeed indicator. But I won't do it unless it quits in flight, and even then I'm going to hit the "nearest" button on the GPS. It's required equipment.
 
jnmeade said:
How can a CFI-I not know how to slip or lean an engine?
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Based on my experience, it's more common that a CFI does NOT know how to lean an engine than that he does know.

- Don't lean below 3000'
- Don't shock cool!
- etc.

But never anything useful like "wait for the oil to warm up". Sigh.
 
Tom-D said:
How do you as a pilot determine if the airspeed indicator is working before flight?
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Always been one of my takeoff checks -

-power set
-engine instruments in the green
-Airspeed's alive

Now we can go fly....
 
sba55 said:
Based on my experience, it's more common that a CFI does NOT know how to lean an engine than that he does know.

- Don't lean below 3000'
- Don't shock cool!
- etc.

But never anything useful like "wait for the oil to warm up". Sigh.
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Sad, but true, particularly of pilot mill CFIs
 
steingar said:
You can easily see the airspeed indicator come alive on your takeoff roll, and should be looking to see when you hit rotation speed. The point at which that happens will be way different with one person or two. We had an instance where I went flying with a friend and the airspeed indicator wasn't working. We shut down right then and there. Turned out bugs can gotten into the pitot.

Yeah, I know any pilot worth his (or her) salt can fly a 150 sans airspeed indicator. But I won't do it unless it quits in flight, and even then I'm going to hit the "nearest" button on the GPS. It's required equipment.
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While I agree that it's prudent to abort a takeoff after noticing a lack of ASI movement when you know you're going fast enough to register (assuming it's safe to abort), I can't fathom any reason to terminate a flight at the nearest airport just because the ASI quits in cruise. I was taught to learn the power and pitch combinations that provide the airspeed one needs for critical aspects of flight just for such an occasion and the landing isn't going to be any easier at the airport you GPS picks as the closest compared to the one you were headed for (or one close to that if the original destination is tight).
 
gismo said:
While I agree that it's prudent to abort a takeoff after noticing a lack of ASI movement when you know you're going fast enough to register (assuming it's safe to abort), I can't fathom any reason to terminate a flight at the nearest airport just because the ASI quits in cruise. I was taught to learn the power and pitch combinations that provide the airspeed one needs for critical aspects of flight just for such an occasion and the landing isn't going to be any easier at the airport you GPS picks as the closest compared to the one you were headed for (or one close to that if the original destination is tight).
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Because the FARs say it's required equipment. Required equipment gets fixed as soon as practical until I fly the airplane again. Yes, I can easily fly it sans airspeed indicator. But that isn't the point. I can fly without a compass, or a transponder, or a bunch of other things. But if the FARs say it has to be there, it has to be there.
 
steingar said:
You can easily see the airspeed indicator come alive on your takeoff roll, and should be looking to see when you hit rotation speed.
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Spoken like a true nosedragger pilot.

I don't even know what a "rotation" speed is.

But, I will admit that as I get more comfortable in my current ride, I am more likely to make a quick glance downward to see if the ASI works. Sometimes. Maybe. On a wide runway. Without too much wind.

:wink2:
 
steingar said:
Because the FARs say it's required equipment. Required equipment gets fixed as soon as practical until I fly the airplane again. Yes, I can easily fly it sans airspeed indicator. But that isn't the point. I can fly without a compass, or a transponder, or a bunch of other things. But if the FARs say it has to be there, it has to be there.
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....and therefore requires an immediate diversion?

:dunno:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Last I checked, the speed at which I rotate depends on how far I shove the stick forward. At least I assume it does, because I'm not looking at the ASI.
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Sucks for you if you can't do it. A glance at the airspeed indicator is a standard part of my take-off procedure. If I hit rotation speed and I'm not rotating, I know something is wrong and I an abort without endangering myself or my aircraft.

I guess you taildragger pilots aren't all you're cracked up to be.:D
 
dmccormack said:
....and therefore requires an immediate diversion?

:dunno:
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Yeah, even for IFR the FAA says land as soon as practicable not as soon as possible.

I'd not end a flight due to an inop ASI.

I probably wouldn't abort a takeoff due to an inop ASI. There is risk in aborting a takeoff. I personally think that risk is much greater than the risk of continuing a flight with an INOP ASI.
 
COFlyBoy said:
Yeah, even for IFR the FAA says land as soon as practicable not as soon as possible.

I'd not end a flight due to an inop ASI.

I probably wouldn't abort a takeoff due to an inop ASI. There is risk in aborting a takeoff. I personally think that risk is much greater than the risk of continuing a flight with an INOP ASI.
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Could be true depending on the runway. I operate out of a huge field, so aborting is the safest thing. If your runway isn't so big, going through with the takeoff might indeed be better for safety, so long as you can land safely without it.
 
steingar said:
Could be true depending on the runway. I operate out of a huge field, so aborting is the safest thing. If your runway isn't so big, going through with the takeoff might indeed be better for safety, so long as you can land safely without it.
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Agree, if you have a big runway not a big deal. Where I operate from rotation happens about midfield, and I'm not sure I could get stopped if I aborted there.

If you can't land safely w/o your ASI, get a CFI and get to the point that you can. Really, I don't think a pilot should consider himself current/competent to act as PIC if he is not comfortable flying his bird with a failed ASI.

Just like a deadstick landing. A pilot should be comfortable with the procedure at all times. If not, get a CFI and get better at it.
 
COFlyBoy said:
Agree, if you have a big runway not a big deal. Where I operate from rotation happens about midfield, and I'm not sure I could get stopped if I aborted there.

If you can't land safely w/o your ASI, get a CFI and get to the point that you can. Really, I don't think a pilot should consider himself current/competent to act as PIC if he is not comfortable flying his bird with a failed ASI.

Just like a deadstick landing. A pilot should be comfortable with the procedure at all times. If not, get a CFI and get better at it.
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I am with COFlyboy..... One should not be signed off for their first solo flight till they can demonstrate the ability to fly the plane with the ASI covered up. My instructor had a plastic top that covers dog food cans and he would snap it on the ASI and I would fly for hours to learn the feel of the plane without ASI data.. In my opinion it was probably one of the best lessons he used on me to shape me into a safe pilot... YMMV:thumbsup::idea:
Ben.
 
Covered up <> Inoperative.

I always check for airspeed alive, and if it doesn't come alive, I abort and figure out why. Once it was because I forgot the pitot cover. Once it was another failure.

I didn't fly until it was working again.
 
FWIW, I just went out flying an old ratty 1961 172 during my lunch break (had the old fashioned bent tubing pitot tube). The ASI came alive maybe a second after I put the power in. I had traveled less than 20 feet.
 
COFlyBoy said:
I probably wouldn't abort a takeoff due to an inop ASI. There is risk in aborting a takeoff. I personally think that risk is much greater than the risk of continuing a flight with an INOP ASI.
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Depends on how it fails. If the ASI starts off working and then fails during the roll, that I can understand. Hasn't happened to me, but I know folks who started the roll with it working and as the air was being pushed into the tube it drove a bug or other crud far enough into the tube to block the flow and stop functioning. In a situation like that, I agree, best to continue the takeoff.

But if the thing isn't working from the get go? Unless you are in a Tailwheel and there is heck of a x-wind, I find it hard to believe that aborting the takeoff in the first 25-50 feet is risky.
 
Is AWO a more suitable field than OKH? Yes...continue the flight. The return leg involves flight with a known deficiency if ASI has not been made IAW type certificate. This includes the appropriate logbook entry made by authorized person. What's the dealio again?

RE: This CFI...block the rudders right after rotation...watch his reaction. A cuff behind the ears may be entirely appropriate. :goofy:
 
Aborting a takeoff in a Cessna 150 isn't an event - and nearly every paved runway out there permits plenty of room. We're not talking about a transport category jet here...

There are few legit reasons in a light single trainer with any typical runway to take to the air with an equipment failure.

If I'm with a student on a 6000 ft runway in a C150 and they don't see the airspeed come alive - I would very much like to see them make the abort decision. Sure it can be flown but there is no point.
 
At OKH aborting a takeoff is pretty darn near impossible. It is a very steep downhill and pretty narrow. Additionally the pavement is pretty crappy. Application of the brakes at a decent speed is pretty dangerous.

I've flown there once (With the OP actually), and wouldn't do it again without good reason.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Last I checked, the speed at which I rotate depends on how far I shove the stick forward. At least I assume it does, because I'm not looking at the ASI.
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I'm all for seat of the pants flying and looking outside, but seriously, there is no reason you can't glance at the instruments and fly the plane visually, even in a tailwheel. My glance at the panel is no different whether I am flying a trike or tailwheel.
 
Tom-D said:
When you are coming down the hill at OKH you don't have much choice, ditch or sky, your choice
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No issue there, but continuing the flight to another airport rather than returning to land? That doesn't sound much like "discontinu[ing] the flight" unless you can make the case that OKH is unsuitable for landing without an airspeed indicator.
 
dmccormack said:
....and therefore requires an immediate diversion?

:dunno:
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Pretty much. See 91.7(b) and the various NTSB cases on that point. Unless you can show that the nearest airport wasn't suitable under the circumstances (and that argument has only rarely been made successfully), you must land at the first suitable airport. Had Tom's story been that the ASI failed, say, entering the pattern at the other airport, no problem, but when he says it was dead on takeoff, he'd have to show that landing at OKH without an airspeed indicator wasn't safe.
 
Richard said:
Is AWO a more suitable field than OKH? Yes...continue the flight.
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The FAA's position as supported by the NTSB cases is not whether the further field is "more suitable," just whether there was significant risk at the nearer field. Go to the NTSB site and search for cases on 91.7(b) -- you'll find several on point.

The return leg involves flight with a known deficiency if ASI has not been made IAW type certificate. This includes the appropriate logbook entry made by authorized person. What's the dealio again?
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Since an airspeed is one of the basic Day VFR requirements under 91.205(b), and I doubt they had an approved MEL allowing flight with the ASI inop, no flight without it is authorized without a ferry permit, although I have no idea if the FSDO involved would issue one in this case.
 
Richard said:
I find it hard to believe that folks are arm chairing the ADM of an experienced aviator who has intimate knowledge of the departure airfield.
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Some people like to make a sport out of it. :rolleyes:

In the words of the infamous Bart Simpson, "I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything."
 
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