My first class Bravo experience

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onwards

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onwards
So I was flying back to CCR the other night, and coming in from the SE @6500 ft. I was with ATC with VFR following the whole way from 3o8. I know the TAC pretty well around here - lord knows I've been staring at and studying it for hours and hours in the past few weeks.

Well anyway, as I am crossing over Livermore and proceeding direct to CCR, enjoying the beautiful night scenery, the controller suddenly says "cleared for class Bravo". I did a double-take; I was certain that my route was taking me under the outer shelf (which bottoms out at 8000ft). I thanked him (literally I said "thank you for class Bravo", which I'm sure made me sound like a total dork), and 2-3 minutes later was out of it anyway as I started my descent towards the airport and came down under 6000ft.

I looked at the chart after I got back and seems like I just clipped the edge (by quite a bit less than a mile) of the the second shelf off SFO, bottom 6000ft. Totally did not expect it.

Lessons learned: (1) there isn't much of a fudge factor in those charts; (2) I better pay even better attention than I thought I was when flying close to "clearance required" air spaces; (3) ATC are really nice people. I think he saved me an incident there.
 
Great Learning Experience!

Hope you never run out of luck! I'm right under the Dallas Bravo, so i'm constantly looking at the chart, and checking floors of the shelves too.
 
I got cleared into the DEN Bravo three times coming back from Nebraska yesterday. :rofl:

Had to deviate north of my track direct to APA, for a t-storm and DEN was great about it.

Each controller had no idea the previous controller had given the clearance nor the 7500 or below altitude restriction.

It was comical each time when I told 'em. LOL!

"Thanks, we were cleared into the Bravo by the last controller, altitude restriction 7500 or below."

Silence for a second then, "Oh, okay."

Somebody goofed their hand-offs.

The funny part was 7500 or below kept me out of the Bravo completely anyway, until clipping the corner over KBKF.

Normally I'd just turn further South and avoid it but with a clearance I got to plow straight through.

As long as there were no fast-movers, it didn't matter until that point that I had a clearance or not. But I got three! ;) ;) ;)

The last controller altitude-restricted two Southwest 737s in their descents for landing KDEN north-bound until they passed me. That was fun to watch out the window.

"Skylane 79M, traffic 11 o'clock five miles a Boeing 737 descending out of one-one thousand, he'll stop at 8000."

"Traffic in-sight, 79M."

"Thank you, maintain visual separation from that traffic, and there will be another one five miles behind him, shortly."

"We'll watch for the next one, would it help if we started our descent now?"

"Nah, they're fine. They still have a couple miles to glideslope intercept. Break. Southwest XXX traffic 3 o'clock a Cessna 182 he has you in-sight, cleared visual approach runway XX, remain at 8000 or above until glideslope intercept. Just start down when you get the glideslope."

I thought the "they're fine" was funny. The controller was being nice to me in my little ol' bugsmasher.

Even more interesting, I must'a tripped the poor guy's TCAS 'cause all of a sudden he's right-wing up and I can only hear one side of the conversation, "Southwest XXX that traffic was previously called out to you (as I see the wings level) he's passing behind you, no factor, a Skylane at 7500."

I had every light on to try to help 'em spot me, but I guess they never saw me and totally missed the original traffic callout.

I swear I wasn't trying' to scare 'em! ;) I was watching them the whole time!! :D

I started the descent having done enough to freak out an airliner crew for one day and reported out of 7500. Watched the next one go overhead as...

"Cessna 79M, contact Centennial Tower now 118.9."

See ya! :)

Great controllers here in DEN even if they were a little weird on the hand-offs. Totally no problem if you kept up on the big picture.

Wish KLAS was that nice!
 
Had a similar experience during my dual night flying training.

We went out from KDTO to KGVT (Greenville) via KTKI (McKinney). On way back, as we near KTKI, the controller spontaneously requests me to climb to 4500 and clears us into the Bravo space.

Had to ask if I heard that right, then thanked him and continued on.

For a student pilot, it was a cool surprise. Instructor remarked it had never happened before.
 
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onwards said:
Lessons learned: (1) there isn't much of a fudge factor in those charts; (2) I better pay even better attention than I thought I was when flying close to "clearance required" air spaces; (3) ATC are really nice people. I think he saved me an incident there.
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(4) If you're gonna **** up, **** up in Norcal Approach's airspace. Those guys are the best of the best among the class B's, extremely friendly and helpful.
 
denverpilot said:
The last controller altitude-restricted two Southwest 737s in their descents for landing KDEN north-bound until they passed me. That was fun to watch out the window.
Click to expand...

Yeah!

Since on both trips - on the way out earlier in the day and the return leg - I crossed under the major ILS approaches from the south to SJC, SFO and OAK, I got to see a large number of bigun's coming across... a few 727, 737 and 757, one 747, and an airbus or two... it was pretty busy. I was firmly under the Bravo on the way out at 5500 and then 7500 (although they kept me at 7000 or below for quite a while for separation) when I got from under the second shelf, but it was still cool to have ATC talk to the big guys and warn them I'm under... and the coolest part was when one of them (a Southwest guy - they consistently seem to be in a bit more good humor than the rest of them) even acknowledged me along the lines of "affirmative, in sight, hi there!" (him being me). I about swallowed my mike on that one. I figure the main worry was descending wake, which I imagine could have pushed my little 172 down into the hills.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
(4) If you're gonna **** up, **** up in Norcal Approach's airspace. Those guys are the best of the best among the class B's, extremely friendly and helpful.
Click to expand...

Amen to that. I mean, I haven't traveled anywhere else, but the Norcal folks really are really nice even when they have a lot to deal with. It helps a lot when I get confused about something with the radio jitters (which I admit I occasionally still have when flying through certain areas).
 
I've found that sometimes the controllers will pre emptively give you a Bravo clearance if your logical route would take you through it, even if you intended on avoiding it.
 
Some of the Norcal folks have a good sense of humor. Coming from the north I was on with approach control but they were so busy vectoring planes around that for several minutes I couldn't get a word in edgewise. I flew within inches of where the bravo drops to 3,000 and pretty much did a wing-over to keep from hitting it. As if on cue the controller rattles off, "Hey, whenever you're done your bay tour (a popular local circuit, and he knew very well that I wasn't doing one) you're cleared into bravo..."

I'm sure he was watching me the whole time on his scope expecting me to blow right into the airspace without a clearance while he was unable to rattle one out due to the amount of heavy iron going in and out of SFO.

The controllers around the bay area are indeed superb.
 
onwards said:
Yeah!

Since on both trips - on the way out earlier in the day and the return leg - I crossed under the major ILS approaches from the south to SJC, SFO and OAK, I got to see a large number of bigun's coming across... a few 727, 737 and 757, one 747, and an airbus or two... it was pretty busy. I was firmly under the Bravo on the way out at 5500 and then 7500 (although they kept me at 7000 or below for quite a while for separation) when I got from under the second shelf, but it was still cool to have ATC talk to the big guys and warn them I'm under... and the coolest part was when one of them (a Southwest guy - they consistently seem to be in a bit more good humor than the rest of them) even acknowledged me along the lines of "affirmative, in sight, hi there!" (him being me). I about swallowed my mike on that one. I figure the main worry was descending wake, which I imagine could have pushed my little 172 down into the hills.
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What was your AGL? How close do you think the airliners came to you to give you concern for wake?
 
Jaybird180 said:
What was your AGL? How close do you think the airliners came to you to give you concern for wake?
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1000-2000ft, depending on which hill I was over at the time. I was staying under the bravo (which bottoms at 6000ft) on the way east. The big guys were about 3000-4000ft above me. Maybe I figured wrong, I'm still new at this :)
 
onwards said:
1000-2000ft, depending on which hill I was over at the time. I was staying under the bravo (which bottoms at 6000ft) on the way east. The big guys were about 3000-4000ft above me. Maybe I figured wrong, I'm still new at this :)
Click to expand...

Yup - You won't have a problem with 3,000-4,000 foot separation. See AIM 7-3-4a.3.
 
onwards said:
1000-2000ft, depending on which hill I was over at the time. I was staying under the bravo (which bottoms at 6000ft) on the way east. The big guys were about 3000-4000ft above me. Maybe I figured wrong, I'm still new at this :)
Click to expand...

Were you going parallel to or perpendicular to their flight path?

If you were going perpendicular, you wouldn't feel much more than a big bump. The wake below the plane would be a bit wider than the wingspan of the plane that made it. At 110 knots you are moving about 180 feet per second, so traversing the wake of a big plane only takes about a second.

I rode through the wake of an RJ (perpendicularly) and it was just a big bump, no roll or anything. I think I was approximately 1000 feel below where the RJ passed.
 
A good lesson and an atta boy to the controller.

:thumbsup:

It works both ways -- a few times I've had to prompt PIT, "Confirm cleared through Class Bravo?"

"Yes, -- you're cleared through bravo airspace..."
 
COFlyBoy said:
Were you going parallel to or perpendicular to their flight path?

If you were going perpendicular, you wouldn't feel much more than a big bump. The wake below the plane would be a bit wider than the wingspan of the plane that made it. At 110 knots you are moving about 180 feet per second, so traversing the wake of a big plane only takes about a second.

I rode through the wake of an RJ (perpendicularly) and it was just a big bump, no roll or anything. I think I was approximately 1000 feel below where the RJ passed.
Click to expand...

Here is a frighting account of a wake turbulence encounter from a Tiger that passed perpendicularly 500' under the path of a heavy, 2 mins and 30 seconds in trail. A lot of stuff can break in a fraction of a second. The aileron mass balance on this plane weighs at least a couple pounds. Glad it didn't fall through my roof.

http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/GenPDF.aspx?id=LAX00LA035&rpt=fa
 
ajstoner21 said:
Great Learning Experience!

Hope you never run out of luck! I'm right under the Dallas Bravo, so i'm constantly looking at the chart, and checking floors of the shelves too.
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Dallas Bravo is tricky, esp if you are at ADS. My solution is always to file IFR, though in Texas (except in this situation), it isn't as necessary as it is on the East Coast.
 
Well, I did my primary and my instrument IN a class Bravo. I feel most at home there, because it is professional, and they do keep out the pilots who don't know what they're doing there (and yes, you can really detect this VERY quickly).
 
spiderweb said:
Well, I did my primary and my instrument IN a class Bravo. I feel most at home there, because it is professional, and they do keep out the pilots who don't know what they're doing there (and yes, you can really detect this VERY quickly).
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I'd believe it. I've only actually tried to go through the Bravo once, and got in just fine. I guess I knew what I was doin :lol:

I was flyin from Tyler, TX direct to Spinks. Flew west over right over Lancaster at 4500 (maybe? I dont remember) to Spinks.

I've been wanting to go out late at night and try for a low approach over DFW.
 
ajstoner21 said:
I've been wanting to go out late at night and try for a low approach over DFW.
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Piece o' cake to get into the Bravo there, especially at night, and it's a nice view:

attachment.php
 
Sac Arrow said:
I've found that sometimes the controllers will pre emptively give you a Bravo clearance if your logical route would take you through it, even if you intended on avoiding it.
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Oh definitely -- if the airspace is open they're gonna do it, just 'cause it'll save them from having a "deal" and having to explain why they didn't warn you to stay out.

If they know you're on-frequency and they can handle you, it's easier to say "cleared into the Bravo" than, "Oh crap, I just got pulled off the scopes for an investigation and put my job in jeopardy."

I think consciously or sub-consciously they're always "sizing you up" if you're a light aircraft driver too. Sound professional and do sane things? They're going to clear you on in if they can work you into the airspace.

Sound unsure/doing wacky things? You'll likely hear, "Cessna XXXXX, Remain clear of Class Bravo Airspace, Suggest a left turn heading XXX. Squawk 1200, Frequency change approved." ;)
 
slacktide said:
Here is a frighting account of a wake turbulence encounter from a Tiger that passed perpendicularly 500' under the path of a heavy, 2 mins and 30 seconds in trail. A lot of stuff can break in a fraction of a second. The aileron mass balance on this plane weighs at least a couple pounds. Glad it didn't fall through my roof.

http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/GenPDF.aspx?id=LAX00LA035&rpt=fa
Click to expand...

The link doesn't work for me, but I'd love to read it...
 
denverpilot said:
Oh definitely -- if the airspace is open they're gonna do it, just 'cause it'll save them from having a "deal" and having to explain why they didn't warn you to stay out.

If they know you're on-frequency and they can handle you, it's easier to say "cleared into the Bravo" than, "Oh crap, I just got pulled off the scopes for an investigation and put my job in jeopardy."

I think consciously or sub-consciously they're always "sizing you up" if you're a light aircraft driver too. Sound professional and do sane things? They're going to clear you on in if they can work you into the airspace.

Sound unsure/doing wacky things? You'll likely hear, "Cessna XXXXX, Remain clear of Class Bravo Airspace, Suggest a left turn heading XXX. Squawk 1200, Frequency change approved." ;)
Click to expand...

Interesting. So I guess i sounded professional enough then... that's good to know. I was certainly not *feeling* that professional when he gave me that clearance.
 
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