My First 10 Passengers & Lessons Learned

Heh, seeing this thread I had to count how many different people I've flown in the 500 hours I have in my logbook.

165 different people.

I love passengers. All good tips. Especially about down low. Never let them touch anything down low. The only time I ever had a pucker moment was down low near KOAK. We were doing the Oakland transition (now to be called the Bay View Flyway...gonna be hard to get used to), past the 30 numbers at 1400' over the water. Or, we were supposed to be. In yammering at my three other non-pilot passengers, I drifted up 100' to 1500'. Local controller gave me a hint that I may need to descend, forget what exactly, but it was gentle. On realizing my mistake, since we're under a 1500' Charlie shelf, I immediately blurted out a surprised "Oops!" and punched the yoke down to quickly lose the 100'.

Yeah, some of you know where this is going. Smooth. Always be smooth with passengers. The guy in the right seat, his eyes got big as saucers and his hands shot out and took the yoke, ready to crank us back up into the sky. Now it was my turn for the saucer eyes, as I saw my life passing before me as I'm envisioning us stalling straight into the bay. He was a bigger guy than me, but fortunately, reason returned quickly and I was able to get him to let go verbally. It was quiet in that plane for the rest of the short time remaining on our way to KPAO. Learned a big lesson that day.
 
Sinistar said:
.Only 1 person (#10) offered to pay for fuel. I never asked or expected it, just find it interesting it was only 10%.
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If you were inviting them, seems right. If I invited you over for dinner, you wouldn't offer to pitch in on the steaks. You might bring a gift or send thank you card after. Did you get any of those?

I told a coworker that the plane runs on gasoline... but whiskey can be substituted.
 
In my first 100 hours I don't think I had 10 human passengers. Hmmm....actually I have had exactly 10. I have had more animal passengers than humans.
 
steingar said:
There is some good wisdom in this thread. I should have never questioned the OP’s preflight. It takes as long as it takes. I beg forgiveness.
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No worries! It would be so nice to arrive and be able to start the plane 10min later. Right now from arrival to enginr startup is 30min. If we owned a decent, secure hangar, faster door, smooth transition from floor to apron, etc. And if I felt comfortable leaving everything in there but the tablet I'm pretty sure I could be at 20min. A bathroom in the hangar vs that walk and maybe we're at 15min :) After that I think I'd be cutting corners.

One reason I spend some extra time checking the plastic end caps of the sides of the elevator and top of the rudder is a story I heard from an older pilot at our airport.

He was taking off from a grass field after the ground had froze. Right as he started to rotate (slight elevator up) a chunk of ice kicked up and sharttered the plastic elevator encap. A large piece wedged the elevator stuck in the slight upwards position. You could hear in his voice he thought he was a goner as it continued to nose up. He said he finally managed to counter eith trim, slow down and mush it along, land and change underpants. After that story I always spend a extra minute or 2 staring at that plastic!
 
arnoha said:
Heh, seeing this thread I had to count how many different people I've flown in the 500 hours I have in my logbook.

165 different people.

I love passengers. All good tips. Especially about down low. Never let them touch anything down low. The only time I ever had a pucker moment was down low near KOAK. We were doing the Oakland transition (now to be called the Bay View Flyway...gonna be hard to get used to), past the 30 numbers at 1400' over the water. Or, we were supposed to be. In yammering at my three other non-pilot passengers, I drifted up 100' to 1500'. Local controller gave me a hint that I may need to descend, forget what exactly, but it was gentle. On realizing my mistake, since we're under a 1500' Charlie shelf, I immediately blurted out a surprised "Oops!" and punched the yoke down to quickly lose the 100'.

Yeah, some of you know where this is going. Smooth. Always be smooth with passengers. The guy in the right seat, his eyes got big as saucers and his hands shot out and took the yoke, ready to crank us back up into the sky. Now it was my turn for the saucer eyes, as I saw my life passing before me as I'm envisioning us stalling straight into the bay. He was a bigger guy than me, but fortunately, reason returned quickly and I was able to get him to let go verbally. It was quiet in that plane for the rest of the short time remaining on our way to KPAO. Learned a big lesson that day.
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165 Wow! I'm guessing some instructors don't even ride with that many. And now I wish I would have logged who flew with me. I definitely logged the wife and daughter. The others I didn't really put in the log entry.

So holy crap! Your rather abrupt dive resulted in a passenger yanking it back up. When passengers get freaked it seems they are more likely to pull the yoke back.
 
trenton said:
If you were inviting them, seems right. If I invited you over for dinner, you wouldn't offer to pitch in on the steaks. You might bring a gift or send thank you card after. Did you get any of those?

I told a coworker that the plane runs on gasoline... but whiskey can be substituted.
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As I said I wasn't expecting any of them to pay nor wood I have taken their money since I invited them (as you pointed out).

However, all this darn talk about prorata stuff during training had me expecting it would come up more often. Now that aviation fuel is so expensive they could probably just get rid of the rule since no passenger in their right mind would volunteer to pay!
 
Sinistar said:
165 Wow! I'm guessing some instructors don't even ride with that many. And now I wish I would have logged who flew with me. I definitely logged the wife and daughter. The others I didn't really put in the log entry.

So holy crap! Your rather abrupt dive resulted in a passenger yanking it back up. When passengers get freaked it seems they are more likely to pull the yoke back.
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I use MyFlightBook and it has a property for Passenger Names. I use it extensively, which is why I was able to get that number. If you haven't converted to an electronic logbook, I strongly recommend it, even if you keep filling in the physical one. (I keep filling my paper one in...not sure why, but there's something about writing on the paper.) But, yeah, the electronic logbook makes totaling and searching stuff a breeze.

Oh, and few of my passengers have kicked in. I don't ask; a few insist. When I rented, I used to casually explain the rules around splitting costs. Now that I own, it's far more complicated and I've stopped doing that. (I've also become more financially stable, which also helps.) Passengers are one of the things that keep flying interesting to me. I certainly wouldn't turn down a flight alone, but I'll take one with passengers over that any day. I think I've got less than a dozen flights post-PPL that were alone.
 
Sinistar said:
One reason I spend some extra time checking the plastic end caps of the sides of the elevator and top of the rudder is a story I heard from an older pilot at our airport.
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I was wondering if you were going to share about that preflight item! Are you just ensuring there are no deformities there? I’ve never flown a 182 but the club I’m just joining is committed to adding one to their small fleet. Any tidbit of knowledge is nice to know.
 
woodchucker said:
I was wondering if you were going to share about that preflight item! Are you just ensuring there are no deformities there? I’ve never flown a 182 but the club I’m just joining is committed to adding one to their small fleet. Any tidbit of knowledge is nice to know.
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The thing to look for in the elevator ends under the plastic caps are the counter weights in the horn. If they’re missing, no es bueno. :)

Other things to watch out for on rental 182s are ...

The flap tracks and rollers (people bend and break them extending flaps above flap speed)...

Cowl flaps that can be wiggled left and right (the hinges wear out, usually right side first because it is in the pulses and vibration of the exhaust, and if they break and the cowl flap departs the aircraft in flight they are EXTREMELY expensive to replace)...

Bends or wrinkles in the firewall when peeking inside the cowl (landed it on and drove the nosegear into the pavement)...

Missing aileron safety wires on older models with safety wire instead of pins...

Missing aileron counterweights...

Cotter pin missing from the trim actuator arm attach point.

... and other usual Cessna stuff (tie down ring ground flat by landing on the tail, wrinkles anywhere, brake pads, flat spotted tires the last guy wants to stick you with paying for (always roll the aircraft far enough to look at the tread all the way around all three tires), etc.

The other thing you’ll see a lot on older rental Cessnas is missing screws in the tail plastic covers at the base of the vertical fin on either side. Make them fix those properly so they don’t fall out. Once the airplane has been though a million inspections the screw holes get oversized and the first flight out of the shop, they just fall out.

Also found a rental once where someone had managed to lose the transponder antenna on the tail. I have no freaking clue how they managed that one other than off-roading over a taxiway light, but they managed to just get the antenna and not the skin. Amazing.
 
I'm soooo happy I am a sole owner with a private, locked hangar!
 
woodchucker said:
I was wondering if you were going to share about that preflight item! Are you just ensuring there are no deformities there? I’ve never flown a 182 but the club I’m just joining is committed to adding one to their small fleet. Any tidbit of knowledge is nice to know.
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Being pretty novice yet on the 182, I will defer to Nates much more detailed list.

Regarding the plastic endcaps. I mainly look to see if they look cracked, especially around the rivets. And I look for clearance. The elevator plastic to plastic clearance is a bit more than the one at the top of the rudder. That rudder top cap clearance is actually quite tight. Generally I'm just looking for anything that is about to finally crack and then become wedged or prevent movement in one direction.

denverpilot said:
The thing to look for in the elevator ends under the plastic caps are the counter weights in the horn. If they’re missing, no es bueno. :)

Other things to watch out for on rental 182s are ...

The flap tracks and rollers (people bend and break them extending flaps above flap speed)...

Cowl flaps that can be wiggled left and right (the hinges wear out, usually right side first because it is in the pulses and vibration of the exhaust, and if they break and the cowl flap departs the aircraft in flight they are EXTREMELY expensive to replace)...

Bends or wrinkles in the firewall when peeking inside the cowl (landed it on and drove the nosegear into the pavement)...

Missing aileron safety wires on older models with safety wire instead of pins...

Missing aileron counterweights...

Cotter pin missing from the trim actuator arm attach point.

... and other usual Cessna stuff (tie down ring ground flat by landing on the tail, wrinkles anywhere, brake pads, flat spotted tires the last guy wants to stick you with paying for (always roll the aircraft far enough to look at the tread all the way around all three tires), etc.

The other thing you’ll see a lot on older rental Cessnas is missing screws in the tail plastic covers at the base of the vertical fin on either side. Make them fix those properly so they don’t fall out. Once the airplane has been though a million inspections the screw holes get oversized and the first flight out of the shop, they just fall out.

Also found a rental once where someone had managed to lose the transponder antenna on the tail. I have no freaking clue how they managed that one other than off-roading over a taxiway light, but they managed to just get the antenna and not the skin. Amazing.
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+1 on the base of the vertical fin on either side. I think there is like 6 or 7 screws on the top and about the same on the bottom. They are easy to remove. So far I have found one missing during a pre-flight (right after an annual).

Its not uncommon for a nose cowling faster (captive 1/4 turn screw) to pop loose after the first flight after having it off. I have had this happen twice, both times after an oil change. I was positive they were all in tight. But the way the top meets the bottom, I think once I thunk a landing things settle a bit and anything that was "amost" in decides to pop back out.

Cowl flaps snap back to middle position. This is during flight, not pre-flight. During one of my first solos I had closed the cowl flaps (or I thought I had!). Anway out of nowhere I feel this thunk and it feels near by legs. I am thinking holy crap this is that day. So I tell myself "That big thing in front is still turning, its still loud, indicators are good - breathe and think." I re-run the cruise checklist and see the cowl flaps handle half way between open and closed. So I close them again. A little while later "Thunk". It turns out if you don't really push they all the way down there is enough tension that it snaps back to that middle location.
 
Sinistar said:
No fair.

So what is your total pre-flight time then Mr. low wing, private hangar, plane owning dude :)
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‘Bout the same . I do not check hinges though with flashlight, I do check the travel, something I should
 
Sinistar said:
And here some of the many lessons learned (not in any particular order):

  • If this will be a trip, people need to be on time. This ain't no car ride. Be on time!
  • Evening flights have been awesome with a few low puffy clouds to look, a full moon, sunset and nice and smooth.
  • I will no longer allow anyone to take any controls during takeoff or landing. First experience was not good. I was not trying to teach, just thought he might like it and I had lots of runway. Nope, that's for you CFI's!!!
  • Try as hard as I can, a good careful pre-flight plus pulling the plane out is 30min. It will never be less. Often it is more.
  • Every minute you are late on taking off, unlike the big airlines...you will not make it during the flight.
  • Only 1 person (#10) offered to pay for fuel. I never asked or expected it, just find it interesting it was only 10%.
  • When flying people on a trip (especially kids) shield them from the pre/post flight. Have mom or someone else bring them at the designated departure time - minus 10min. Bathrooms and go.
  • Lots of different landing experiences with tail being heavier, overall takeoff weight being more, etc.
  • I think my non-greaser landings (as in all landings lately) are worse than the my passengers do (thank goodness).
  • During this high dew point summer weather its just plain hot until you can get up to altitude.
  • I still don't think this is enough experience for something like Young Eagles. I will assist my wife on the ground to learn more first.
  • Being on FF for safety and emergency purposes is awesome! But its also not nice with passengers when you want to chat.
  • Only one passenger (#10) fully realized just how task loaded being a pilot can be. He commented on it as he could tell the low over the city stuff had a lot going on.
  • So far there have been "flyers" and "lookers". I need to get better at determining in advance who is who so I can tailor the flight to them.
  • Make as many of this passenger rides into valid cross country's if possible. I'm flying, might as well earn some time towards IR - within reason of course.
  • A lot of them (5/10) actually seemed to enjoy the pre-flight and really didn't slow it down too much.
  • Have a bathroom nearby. Maybe only 1/10 didn't need to use the bathroom that: "One more time before we go okay."
  • #9 was so quiet during the flight. I noticed well into the flight that his mic was too far away. But even after adjustment, he was quiet (probably nervous). I need to get those types talking a bit more...I think?
  • Prepare them for where to actually park at the airport (its not intuitive!)
  • Prepare them for what to bring (cool clothing, hat, sunglasses, etc)
  • Teach them up front how to control volume on the headsets, kids especially freak if its too loud.
  • If you are going to deliver passengers to another location where they will meet others, you really need to think contingency plans. If the wx, plane or passenger leads to aborting the flight - how will they get there? What will it cost them to not make it? Are you willing to drive them as a backup?
  • The only flight where I sensed a bit of "Get There It is" was the trip to deliver passengers (a longer cross country). Its way easier to scrub a local 1hr flight. However, I had 3 abort points picked out before I allowed myself to takeoff. My wife knew them as well.
...probably many more and they'll come to me later on.
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I'm still working on my PPL, but I did read some advice from a pilot in a book. He used to just ask passengers "you ok?" But noticed after some of them were queasy or not feeling well. After that he started asking before takeoff "on a scale of 1-10 how are you feeling?" And then up in the air, and after a while. He felt most passengers have a tendency to "tough it out" or just be positive, but putting a number on it gave him a more honest response and helped the passenger be up front on how they were doing.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I'm still working on my PPL, but I did read some advice from a pilot in a book. He used to just ask passengers "you ok?" But noticed after some of them were queasy or not feeling well. After that he started asking before takeoff "on a scale of 1-10 how are you feeling?" And then up in the air, and after a while. He felt most passengers have a tendency to "tough it out" or just be positive, but putting a number on it gave him a more honest response and helped the passenger be up front on how they were doing.
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My wife’s button. Nurses. They’re smart. LOL.

508ae09cfceab8d598fd2578e69b29dc.jpg
 
Sinistar said:
I thought to myself: "Hey, I'm getting better at this ride thing, I've got 7500x150 of runway so I will let him keep his hands on the yoke and have him rotate us off." DID NOT GO WELL! When I said rotate he pulled back. And he pulled back more. And more. So I put enough pressure to stop the pull. But the deck angle got pretty steep. So I started overriding him and pushed harder and final gave out a confident (but not panicked) "My plane". And I just pushed us right back to level to get some airspeed back. I could just feel his instinct, he was nervous and thought pulling back would equal safety and security. Lessons learned on this flight!!!!
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denverpilot said:
The guy pulling until you had to stop him is common unless you brief it correctly to students. They’ll try to kill you.
...
Welcome to every flight as a CFI! LOL. And yes, even high time pilots will try eventually to kill you.
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I will not share the details of my experience with this same sort of thing. Let's just say that, no matter how well you think things are going or how much you may think your passenger might be able to do something like handle the rotation or something, you're not a CFI and they're not a student pilot and neither one of you really wants to discover just how true that is.
 
Cool thread. I love giving rides and can't wait to be de-rusted enough to get back to it. Got me wondering/counting - I had 110-ish hours before my layoff 11 years ago. In that time I took 13 humans, one dog and one cat. ;) I always refused offers to pay for gas, but some of my family is very persistent/stubborn. Only 2 real 'Oh crap,' moments. First, my brother in law FREAKED OUT in the back seat when I let my dad have the yoke for a few minutes (plenty of altitude and I'd advised him to pretty much hold steady). Big bad firefighter was yelling like a little girl. Coincidentally, secondly, his son didn't do well on a ride and after one pass around my folks lake house (about 5 nm from the airport), he wanted to go back. I looked back at him and he looked about to barf. Got him some air and was extra smooth on the way back. Landed without incident.

BTW, @Sinistar my folks are up near UBE/RPD - sort of up your way. End of Sept, I may be doing a checkout for a rental up there and heading your way. Curious if you had any thoughts/tips about flying into STP. I trained under the ORD shelf, so I'm not TOO intimidated, but it does look a little snug under/next to the Bravo.

Cheers!
 
Oblivion said:
Cool thread. I love giving rides and can't wait to be de-rusted enough to get back to it. Got me wondering/counting - I had 110-ish hours before my layoff 11 years ago. In that time I took 13 humans, one dog and one cat. ;) I always refused offers to pay for gas, but some of my family is very persistent/stubborn. Only 2 real 'Oh crap,' moments. First, my brother in law FREAKED OUT in the back seat when I let my dad have the yoke for a few minutes (plenty of altitude and I'd advised him to pretty much hold steady). Big bad firefighter was yelling like a little girl. Coincidentally, secondly, his son didn't do well on a ride and after one pass around my folks lake house (about 5 nm from the airport), he wanted to go back. I looked back at him and he looked about to barf. Got him some air and was extra smooth on the way back. Landed without incident.

BTW, @Sinistar my folks are up near UBE/RPD - sort of up your way. End of Sept, I may be doing a checkout for a rental up there and heading your way. Curious if you had any thoughts/tips about flying into STP. I trained under the ORD shelf, so I'm not TOO intimidated, but it does look a little snug under/next to the Bravo.

Cheers!
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I am hoping @champ driver answers this as he's based out of STP (Holman or also called Downtown St.Paul).

I flew there 3 or 4 times for PPL training, always under the Bravo around the south. I also flew in once via FF and Bravo transition (from the west, that was nice!).

First off, there are 3 runways and it can be easy to mix them up, especially if landing west or Northwest so be careful.

When landing west or Northwest you will land over the water and they have the arrestor beds (??) for the big 3m jets (saw a 3 engine Falcon there) so don't land short...or you'll really land short!

When departing northwest, if you turn a left downwind it's easy to get too close to the downtown, the bravo laterally and vertically.

It is a incredibly quiet airport. A biz jet on occasion and a Guard Helicopter attachment. I think the controllers there are great. I have never been to the FBO but here it is pretty fancy as it was a major entry point for the Super Bowl.

The restaurant is on the north end in the same building as the CPB. We really liked the restaurant, great food but not cheap. I am sure if you used the restaurant you could park plane (park right in front) for a few hours and leave. And I'm sure the FBO fuel truck would also run over there.

There is another nearby uncontrolled airport just south (Flemming) if you don't want to go to STP.

I would recommend FF. There isn't much MSP airport traffic on that side...it's usually on the SE and NW sides.

Coming from WI, you might also fly right over Lake Elmo and it is usually pretty busy in the summer and nice flying days. It's also uncontrolled.

If you're used to ORD...you are way ahead of me!!!
 
For Oblivion and Sinistar,

First off I think both of you already realize that STP is very close to the lateral inner column of the Class B at MSP.
You probably wont get 27 as a runway unless the winds are very strong and right down it.
Expect right traffic for 32 and or 31, it's not often they use left traffic for those runways, but it can happen. Realize that you are very close to the Class B and keep a tight downwind if on left traffic for 32.
They do use the west side for traffic transiting north or south from South St Paul Flemming Field, KSGS, also for the Blackhawks that the Guard has.
KSGS is right off your left side if you're on the ILS to 32, be aware of traffic in that area coming and going.
There are a lot corporate jets in and out of STP, from G4's and Global's to Citations and King Airs, but it's usually not too busy.
Yes, you can park at the old Terminal Building at the restaurant, call the FBO for fuel and I'm sure they will come over to fuel you, ask just to be sure though. I haven't eaten there so I can't give any recommendations.
The airport sits in a low area next to the river, so it can be hard to spot, especially at night, even I have trouble at times from certain angles. If at night, downtown should be relatively easy to spot, and the water treatment plant south of the field has lots of lights. Sometimes the old airways beacon on the bluff is easier to spot than the regular one, it flashes white...white.
Taxiway D in-between 32 and 31 is so short between the hold lines, I'm not sure there's enough room for a Bonanza.
Don't land short on the EMAS mats at each end of 32-14, that's considered very bad form, and it'll ruin your day too.
Don't forget to have fun!
 
Thanks, both. Sorry for the 7500, but that's great info. If I do the trip, I'll definitely debrief in my own thread. Squawk VFR and resume own navigation. ;)
 
Sinistar said:
When landing west or Northwest you will land over the water and they have the arrestor beds (??) for the big 3m jets (saw a 3 engine Falcon there) so don't land short...or you'll really land short!
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champ driver said:
Don't land short on the EMAS mats at each end of 32-14, that's considered very bad form, and it'll ruin your day too.
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:D:D:D:D:D:D

Also watch out for "the Shoreviews" as that would REALLY ruin his day.
 
Sounds like you've had a great summer! And for what it's worth, I always ignore the TL;DR crowd. They're not my audience. If they get especially obnoxious I just respond with DILIGAF. :D

Some thoughts on your thoughts:

  • CAP used to have a rule that cadets getting rides can't handle the controls below 1000' AGL. (I think it's gone up to 2500'.) It's a pretty good rule, and one I follow with my non-pilot passengers.
  • From arrival at the airport to getting airborne, it typically takes me at least 30 minutes and often more like 60, depending on who I'm with and what the flight is. I fly a club plane, so my situation is similar to yours. The walk around is the least part of that time. I've started to train my fiancee how to do some of the cockpit tasks (setting up the ipad and headsets) to help save on that time, but gave her lots of training about never touching the master switch or magnetos.
  • I use an old-fashioned log book and make sure to write a little note about who came with and what happened. I'm a big believer that physical artifacts are important for posterity, even if they don't offer the convenience of digital tools. My father died 14 years ago, and one of my prized possessions are his logbooks, along with his father's and brother's logbooks. Someday mine will be added to that collection and passed down to my son.
  • We can't always achieve perfection, but it's good to keep trying. Don't let your less-than perfect landings bother you at all. Airline landings are rarely greasers, and anything less than a hard arrival or bounce will be fine for your passengers.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Sounds like you've had a great summer! And for what it's worth, I always ignore the TL;DR crowd. They're not my audience. If they get especially obnoxious I just respond with DILIGAF. :D

Some thoughts on your thoughts:

  • CAP used to have a rule that cadets getting rides can't handle the controls below 1000' AGL. (I think it's gone up to 2500'.) It's a pretty good rule, and one I follow with my non-pilot passengers.
  • From arrival at the airport to getting airborne, it typically takes me at least 30 minutes and often more like 60, depending on who I'm with and what the flight is. I fly a club plane, so my situation is similar to yours. The walk around is the least part of that time. I've started to train my fiancee how to do some of the cockpit tasks (setting up the ipad and headsets) to help save on that time, but gave her lots of training about never touching the master switch or magnetos.
  • I use an old-fashioned log book and make sure to write a little note about who came with and what happened. I'm a big believer that physical artifacts are important for posterity, even if they don't offer the convenience of digital tools. My father died 14 years ago, and one of my prized possessions are his logbooks, along with his father's and brother's logbooks. Someday mine will be added to that collection and passed down to my son.
  • We can't always achieve perfection, but it's good to keep trying. Don't let your less-than perfect landings bother you at all. Airline landings are rarely greasers, and anything less than a hard arrival or bounce will be fine for your passengers.
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TLDR
 
Nice stories. Have any of y'all taken a spouse up with CFI during PPL training? My CFI mentioned if he was in the plane we could have a passenger. I may see if she wants to join us for cross country training.
 
texasclouds said:
Nice stories. Have any of y'all taken a spouse up with CFI during PPL training? My CFI mentioned if he was in the plane we could have a passenger. I may see if she wants to join us for cross country training.
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My wife joined on one 'lesson.' Finally got some photos of me flying a plane (long before selfies, and we were still shooting film SLRs). We did a short scenic hop around Lake Geneva (southern WI, not Europe), kept it pretty much straight and level, not TAPs, stalls, etc. 1.0 hrs. 1 landing. Probably covered passenger briefing, too. Was my 28th flight/28 hours in. I must not have scared her off b/c she was my first passenger after the DPE.
 
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