My CFI school experience

Don Jones

Don Jones

Line Up and Wait
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Feb 23, 2005
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Las Cruces, New Mexico
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DJones
I just returned friday from the not so accelerated CFI school in Minnesota.
The whole experience was full of problems and delays. It took 4 1/2 days to complete a 3 day ground school due to a overly opinionated student in the class
which the instructor failed to get a handle on. Aircraft problems also caused more delays, with one being out of 100 hour and not available for training. It was only being used for checkrides. The other one was getting its 100 hour done during out ground school, but was not ready until late day 5. To make a long story short I came back without the temporary in my pocket. I was signed off for the ride, but it was scrubbed due to weather and the examiner was leaving town the next day so I could not get it done. I am now working on getting it done here with the FSDO. Sure was an expensive disappointment.
I became friends with one of the other students in the class. He managed to get the oral done, but would have finished if the instructor had signed his 8710.
The instructor got the call about 10 am and was told to fly to Cedar Rapids to sign the form, which he and I did, but not before he went to lunch(what kind of crap is that). It was 3 pm before they had the form in hand and due to approaching darkness could not finish.

On a good note I did get to have dinner with Lance and Jesse. A couple of great guys. Lance flew down and picked up Jesse on the way. I am now suffering of panel envy because of Lance's nice Baron.

Took a while for me to get used to the cold, it was -9 when I left. BRRRRR
It was 60 when I got home, started sweating instantly.
I Love the Southwest!!!
Don
Future CFI
 
Dude - not cool.

Sounds like a totally unprofessional group there. You failed to mention the name of afformentioned accelerated program. I'd like to know so that I never wind up attempting them in the future.
 
Don,

Man, I'm really sorry to hear that. Isn't that the school that worked well for Ed? I guess it depends on the instructor to make it work. Fortunately for me mine was excellent.

How do you feel about the check ride? Do you feel like you're well prepared for it?

Chip
 
I admire your determination in the face of adverse events Don, good luck.

PS failing to get a handle on a student in the classroom, probably a good lesson there, which can be applied to the cockpit too!
 
gibbons said:
Don,

Man, I'm really sorry to hear that. Isn't that the school that worked well for Ed? I guess it depends on the instructor to make it work. Fortunately for me mine was excellent.

How do you feel about the check ride? Do you feel like you're well prepared for it?

Chip
Click to expand...


Yes it was the school Ed recommended, I sure don't hold it against him
though. Things change as I came to find out. The other student I became
friends with had done two other ratings with them and also said what Ed did in that it was smooth and easy. He was not a happy camper this time either, having the checkride snafu that he did.
I do feel prepared, however I am still reading and studying to make sure I can
get by the FSDO in one shot. The only real problem I have is the complex
A/C issue. There are none to rent here, but hopefully I can borrow a friend of mine's Arrow.
Don
 
gibbons said:
Isn't that the school that worked well for Ed? I guess it depends on the instructor to make it work.
Click to expand...

It was the same school and based on Don's experience I won't be making the recommendation anymore. The factor I most appreciated about MN Aviation's program was that the program was well structured, documented, well supervised and the CFI's carefully selected. IOW, an instructor change shouldn't have made any difference with respect to the product's quality. Apparently the supervision has failed.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
It was the same school and based on Don's experience I won't be making the recommendation anymore. The factor I most appreciated about MN Aviation's program was that the program was well structured, documented, well supervised and the CFI's carefully selected. IOW, an instructor change shouldn't have made any difference with respect to the product's quality. Apparently the supervision has failed.
Click to expand...
Just goes to show how things can change. I wasn't pointing a finger here. I just wanted to confirm that it was the same school so I wouldn't consider them in the future. Things obviously went down hill since Ed was there. Too bad, it sounds like it was a well run school at one time.
Don, be sure to email or PM me if you want to discuss the check ride in detail. It's still fresh in my memory.

Chip
 
Hey Don
Sorry to hear about the training that is so wrong. But a great thing can from your experience is that you have a lot of Patience that is the makeing of a good Instructor wish you the best on finishing.:yes:
 
Sorry for you bad experience, Don. Sounds like you're doing the right things to stay current for the ride. You going to send in a complaint or just stew about it?

Dave
 
Best of luck in wrapping your CFI up -you're just around the corner now.

In general terms, when looking for accelerated training, ANY northern flight training facility would be off my list except in summer, for purly the adverse WX probabilities.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Best of luck in wrapping your CFI up -you're just around the corner now.

In general terms, when looking for accelerated training, ANY northern flight training facility would be off my list except in summer, for purly the adverse WX probabilities.
Click to expand...

Funny thing the WX wasn't all that bad until time for the ride. There was one day during training we climbed up on top of an overcast layer to do the high work. It was however colder than hell for a guy from NM. I went prepared though and it really wasn't that bad. I did get .5 actual on the trip to CID and back.

Sorry for you bad experience, Don. Sounds like you're doing the right things to stay current for the ride. You going to send in a complaint or just stew about it?

Dave
Click to expand...
I have a call in to Mike Nevins(the owner) to further inform him of the problems. We will see if he
is interested enough to call me back. Pete(the other student) wrote him a long e-mail letting him
know of his disappointments and he got right back to him. Pete sent a copy of it along with Mike's responses. Pete is a banker and I thought he was way too nice about it, lol. I wanted to hear his
responses on the phone, so we will see. As far as sending in a complaint( I assume you were talking about the FSDO) probably not, just won't be recommending them.

Thanks for all the well wishes, its only a matter of time now.
Don
 
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That's too bad Don.

*Crosses MNAviation off my list*

At least you were able to get some actual.

Did you notice a slight..increase in airplane performance?
 
One word of caution -- some accelerated schools (especially the less professional ones) have "tame" examiners they use exclusively, and teach just what that particular examiner wants (or is willing to accept). If such a school prepped you for "their" examiner, you may find that you are not fully prepared for a FSDO inspector's version of an initial CFI practical test (where the nation-wide bust rate is still over 50%, according to AFS-800 last week, but that's better than the 70% bust rate a couple of years ago). I urge you to get with a school or individual CFI who has successfully prepared applicants for the initial CFI ride at your FSDO, and make sure there will be no surprises when you go for the test with an inspector from your FSDO.
 
Don, sorry to hear of your less that satisfactory expereince. Because misery loves company, I'll share mine with you and we can debate who got hosed worse.
Back in 93 I decided to take the plunge at get my CFI. Wanted to do it all in one shot so I headed off to Mizzou to one of them all inclusive ('cept airline tix, food, hotel) operations to get my CFI in about ten days. Ground school in the AM, flying in the afternoon...hey this is great! Two stage checks later I'm ready to take the airplane to the FSDO and take my ride. When suddenly...out of nowhere.
The business goes into Chapter 11. Doors closed, aircraft chained to the tie downs, lights off...fat lady singing, well you get the drift. So I'm heading home with lots of money having been spent and no ticket. All signed off with no where to go. Went back to my home FBO and did some brush up and took the ride a few weeks later at the local FSDO. Passed my first time through.
Got all kinds of letters from the law firm handling the distribution of the assets once the flight school liquidated. Never saw a dime. Another aviation lesson learned...never pay for anything all at once, up front. Caveat emptor I guess.
 
Ron Levy said:
One word of caution -- some accelerated schools (especially the less professional ones) have "tame" examiners they use exclusively, and teach just what that particular examiner wants (or is willing to accept).
Click to expand...

AFAIK (I've obviously been proven wrong before) MN Aviation uses a slew of examiners picked in rotation by the MSP FSDO (you send your 8710 to the FSDO, the FSDO selects in rotation the DPE you will use), a few school selected examiners within the Cedar Rapids (?) FSDO, but they (MN Aviation) must always prepare for the possibility that the MSP FSDO will pick an applicant here or there at random for an FAA examiner ride (the MSP office will do just that)--IOW, no easy ride DPEs nor training for such.

The DPE I think Don was headed for is a great aviation character. At one point in his career, IIRC, he was Rockwell's head test pilot. He flew low level wind shear system checks (Rockwell airport ground alert system IIRC) in a Lear during thunderstorm season in Florida. I mis-heard him the first time when he told me the altitudes at which they penetrated the active thunderstorms--I thought he told me 10,000'-12,000', but it was actually 1000'-1200'. My initial CFI oral with him was ~8 hours long. We started the oral portion at 9 AM and finished the flying portion just slightly after 7 PM. He isn't Santa Claus by any stretch of the imagination.

"He's a cruel man, but fair."
 
"He's a cruel man, but fair."

Doug and Dinsdale Pirahna aka The Pirahna Brothers. Funniest damn Python skit I ever saw and that includes "The Spanish Inquisition". Ever have your head nailed to a coffee table?

The watch.....the Chinese watch.....Mother!
 
Don Jones said:
Funny thing the WX wasn't all that bad until time for the ride. There was one day during training we climbed up on top of an overcast layer to do the high work. It was however colder than hell for a guy from NM. I went prepared though and it really wasn't that bad. I did get .5 actual on the trip to CID and back.


I have a call in to Mike Nevins(the owner) to further inform him of the problems. We will see if he
is interested enough to call me back. Pete(the other student) wrote him a long e-mail letting him
know of his disappointments and he got right back to him. Pete sent a copy of it along with Mike's responses. Pete is a banker and I thought he was way too nice about it, lol. I wanted to hear his
responses on the phone, so we will see. As far as sending in a complaint( I assume you were talking about the FSDO) probably not, just won't be recommending them.

Thanks for all the well wishes, its only a matter of time now.
Don
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I meant Don. Not FSDO. Most caring owners want to know when something goes wrong. There are ways to be informative with out being derrogative; sounds like your'e a guy that takes the high road. The owner can't fix things if he doesn't know they're broke. His employees may not always pass things along in the manner a customer would. ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
One word of caution -- some accelerated schools (especially the less professional ones) have "tame" examiners they use exclusively, and teach just what that particular examiner wants (or is willing to accept). If such a school prepped you for "their" examiner, you may find that you are not fully prepared for a FSDO inspector's version of an initial CFI practical test (where the nation-wide bust rate is still over 50%, according to AFS-800 last week, but that's better than the 70% bust rate a couple of years ago). I urge you to get with a school or individual CFI who has successfully prepared applicants for the initial CFI ride at your FSDO, and make sure there will be no surprises when you go for the test with an inspector from your FSDO.
Click to expand...


I am way ahead of you Ron, I am always overprepared no matter who will
be doing it. I take responsibility for my own training and am dead set on being prepared for the FSDO as well. What Ed said is also correct. They first go the the Minneapolis FSDO, if they cannot provide the test in a reasonable time they tell them to call the Iowa FSDO and they give them a deferal to allow one of 3 DPE's to do it. Mine was scheduled with Charles (Chuck) Hall, whom Ed was talking about. I got to meet him, seemed like a nice guy, but his orals are rumored to sometimes last 7 hours plus. My buddy spent 5 in the oral with him.
Don
 
Don Jones said:
I am way ahead of you Ron, I am always overprepared no matter who will
be doing it. I take responsibility for my own training and am dead set on being prepared for the FSDO as well. What Ed said is also correct. They first go the the Minneapolis FSDO, if they cannot provide the test in a reasonable time they tell them to call the Iowa FSDO and they give them a deferal to allow one of 3 DPE's to do it. Mine was scheduled with Charles (Chuck) Hall, whom Ed was talking about. I got to meet him, seemed like a nice guy, but his orals are rumored to sometimes last 7 hours plus. My buddy spent 5 in the oral with him.
Don
Click to expand...

Oral testing for the better part of the day is typical for the initial CFI from the Seattle FSDO from any of their examiners. Then fly for ~1 1/2 hours the same day or fly the next day plus retest on any question you may have failed.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
AFAIK (I've obviously been proven wrong before) MN Aviation uses a slew of examiners picked in rotation by the MSP FSDO (you send your 8710 to the FSDO, the FSDO selects in rotation the DPE you will use), a few school selected examiners within the Cedar Rapids (?) FSDO, but they (MN Aviation) must always prepare for the possibility that the MSP FSDO will pick an applicant here or there at random for an FAA examiner ride (the MSP office will do just that)--IOW, no easy ride DPEs nor training for such.

The DPE I think Don was headed for is a great aviation character. At one point in his career, IIRC, he was Rockwell's head test pilot. He flew low level wind shear system checks (Rockwell airport ground alert system IIRC) in a Lear during thunderstorm season in Florida. I mis-heard him the first time when he told me the altitudes at which they penetrated the active thunderstorms--I thought he told me 10,000'-12,000', but it was actually 1000'-1200'. My initial CFI oral with him was ~8 hours long. We started the oral portion at 9 AM and finished the flying portion just slightly after 7 PM. He isn't Santa Claus by any stretch of the imagination.

"He's a cruel man, but fair."
Click to expand...

Oh yes, Chuck Hall, my CFI Examiner. He told me about testing Terrain Avoidance systems by doing low passes (200 AGL) over lake winnebago in wisconsin in Rockwell Collins jet. Fun Stuff. He was the head of engineering flight test here at Rockwell.
My oral with him was about 4-5 hrs. got there about 830, did oral until lunch, then went flying and had a signed temporary about 430 pm. From what ive heard, his checkrides have gotten longer since then, although i dont feel i got an easy ride. I was one of his first applicants i believe. From what ive heard him say, he does a lot of CFI's for MN Aviation and others. In fact, i think that is what he primarily does now. He told me he really has trouble with private applicants, used to going in depth with CFI's. Great guy though.
 
Well the line has been drawn in the sand(again). Scheduled to
take the ride March 17 at 8:00 am with FSDO examiner. I am
meeting him at Double Eagle (AEG) in Albuquerque(same airport Nick flys
out of). I have acquired the use of my buddy's Arrow and are dealing
with the insurance issues now.
Time to hit the books again!

I will be glad when this one's over
Don
 
Don Jones said:
Well the line has been drawn in the sand(again). Scheduled to
take the ride March 17 at 8:00 am with FSDO examiner. I am
meeting him at Double Eagle (AEG) in Albuquerque(same airport Nick flys
out of). I have acquired the use of my buddy's Arrow and are dealing
with the insurance issues now.
Time to hit the books again!

I will be glad when this one's over
Don
Click to expand...

Have a great checkride Don!
 
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