MushMouth radio work - what to do?

[CT4ME]

It happens everywhere, but typically around high-traffic airports: the IMCOOLICANTALKREALLYFAST pilot. Most of their transmissions are unintelligible. What do you do? In the past, I’ve just winced and thought “ya, right, whatever you said”. I don’t want to get into a p*ssing match with them… they are usually really experienced, maybe pro, pilots; with egos around FL35.
But this is dangerous. Each radio call has a specific purpose, and should be intelligible. It’s not like I can take a “speedlistening” class… or did I miss that part in ground school?
When someone is garbled, or with a weak signal, you can just say “say again, you were garbled” – nobody is going to get butthurt. But these mush-mouth types seem to take it personally if you say anything, and usually insinuate (over the air) that you must be a flying HillBilly or something.
What do you do/say?

 

[wabower]

"Twin Cessna XXX, say again all after uhhhhhh."

It happens everywhere, but typically around high-traffic airports: the IMCOOLICANTALKREALLYFAST pilot. Most of their transmissions are unintelligible. What do you do? In the past, I’ve just winced and thought “ya, right, whatever you said”. I don’t want to get into a p*ssing match with them… they are usually really experienced, maybe pro, pilots; with egos around FL35.
But this is dangerous. Each radio call has a specific purpose, and should be intelligible. It’s not like I can take a “speedlistening” class… or did I miss that part in ground school?
When someone is garbled, or with a weak signal, you can just say “say again, you were garbled” – nobody is going to get butthurt. But these mush-mouth types seem to take it personally if you say anything, and usually insinuate (over the air) that you must be a flying HillBilly or something.
What do you do/say?

 

[MickYoumans]

I spent part of my career as a control room shift supervisor in a nuclear plant. Two things were always stressed in that business: 1) conservative decision making and 2) three way communications. As a supervisor when I gave direction to my operators thay would have to repeat back my directions to them and they were not allowed to procede or take action until I acknowledged that their repeatback was correct. Slow, clear and concise communications was the expectation. I wish pilot / ATC communications worked the same way. I think it is even more important in an airplane where you have no face-to-face contact and you have the disadantage of radio sound quality. I fly out of the Augusta Georgia area and the ATC radio gear at Bush field is great and I have no problem communicating with them. When KAGS passes me off to Columbia Approach they have been sounding like they are in a barrel and depending on the controller I sometimes have to get them to repeat. One day there was a girl on shift that I never could understand due to the 'barrel' sound coupled with her voice. The bottom line, I think the flying community would be well served to adopt the slow, clear, concise communications demanded in the nuclear industry.

 

[wabower]

When you mention the barrel-like quality to DFW regional controllers, the typical answer is "we don't build it, we just have to use it."

I spent part of my career as a control room shift supervisor in a nuclear plant. Two things were always stressed in that business: 1) conservative decision making and 2) three way communications. As a supervisor when I gave direction to my operators thay would have to repeat back my directions to them and they were not allowed to procede or take action until I acknowledged that their repeatback was correct. Slow, clear and concise communications was the expectation. I wish pilot / ATC communications worked the same way. I think it is even more important in an airplane where you have no face-to-face contact and you have the disadantage of radio sound quality. I fly out of the Augusta Georgia area and the ATC radio gear at Bush field is great and I have no problem communicating with them. When KAGS passes me off to Columbia Approach they have been sounding like they are in a barrel and depending on the controller I sometimes have to get them to repeat. One day there was a girl on shift that I never could understand due to the 'barrel' sound coupled with her voice. The bottom line, I think the flying community would be well served to adopt the slow, clear, concise communications demanded in the nuclear industry.

 

[Bob Noel]

That's kind of the same problem some controllers have...machine gun fire instructions.

IIRC, Richard Taylor's "Instrument Flying" has a short anecdote where the pilot asks the controller to "say again". The controller gives the same rapid fire words. Then the pilot does the old southern drawl "Say Approach, was that all something important" or some such.

About the only thing possible is to ask them to repeat, and if necessary directly ask them to repeat more slowly. Hoping and hinting probably won't work. If there is some safety consideration involved, I'd say any insinuationi of being a hillbilly is less important than being safe.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

<SNIP> If there is some safety consideration involved, I'd say any insinuationi of being a hillbilly is less important than being safe.

I agree with this...

 

[bobmrg]

"Say again, slowly." I don't attach any importance to the tone of the controller's voice or assume that anything is being insinuated. You are the PIC, responsible for the safety of your flight. Period.

Bob Gardner

 

[airguy]

That's kind of the same problem some controllers have...machine gun fire instructions.

IIRC, Richard Taylor's "Instrument Flying" has a short anecdote where the pilot asks the controller to "say again". The controller gives the same rapid fire words. Then the pilot does the old southern drawl "Say Approach, was that all something important" or some such.

I was flying with my uncle one day in Dallas when we got a controller like that, shot us a fast string of instructions. Dave said "Say again?" and the controller gave it right back at us exactly the same. Dave got back on the radio in his best west Texas beer-drinking cotton farmer voice (which he was) with "Uhhh, control, you can say that again one time slow or three times fast. Your choice, I got all day."

 

[PW_Plack]

It's not always a speed or equipment issue. I've noticed what seems to be a tendency for some pilots to emulate the low, grumbly, almost whispery tone of airline pilots. Pilots who speak perfectly clearly on the phone put on an aviation headset and it's almost like they're suddenly doing golf play-by-play.

I came up through radio broadcasting, and when I trained other on-air staff, a frequent issue was the effect of hearing your own voice in your headphones, which tends to make you talk too softly. We'd sometimes make people work without headphones for part of their shifts just to break the bad habit. Perhaps taking away sidetone, and making pilots speak loudly and clearly enough to hear themselves through bone conduction, would do the same thing.

 

[Henning]

"Sorry, missed half of that, say again a bit slower please"

 

[denverpilot]

It's not always a speed or equipment issue. I've noticed what seems to be a tendency for some pilots to emulate the low, grumbly, almost whispery tone of airline pilots. Pilots who speak perfectly clearly on the phone put on an aviation headset and it's almost like they're suddenly doing golf play-by-play.

hahaha!

I came up through radio broadcasting, and when I trained other on-air staff, a frequent issue was the effect of hearing your own voice in your headphones, which tends to make you talk too softly. We'd sometimes make people work without headphones for part of their shifts just to break the bad habit. Perhaps taking away sidetone, and making pilots speak loudly and clearly enough to hear themselves through bone conduction, would do the same thing.

No, in my experience teaching other two-way radio operators if they can't hear themselves they just start yelling into the microphone.

The only thing that works is the oft-repeated mantra of "speak in a normal speaking voice with the microphone at the corner of your mouth not in front of it". Then play them recordings of themselves later.

 

[ronnieh]

I think CT was mostly talking about other pilots perhaps around busy uncontrolled fields, rather than ATC. Not sure what FL35 is, perhaps he meant FL350?

 

[alfadog]

That's kind of the same problem some controllers have...machine gun fire instructions.

IIRC, Richard Taylor's "Instrument Flying" has a short anecdote where the pilot asks the controller to "say again". The controller gives the same rapid fire words. Then the pilot does the old southern drawl "Say Approach, was that all something important" or some such.

About the only thing possible is to ask them to repeat, and if necessary directly ask them to repeat more slowly. Hoping and hinting probably won't work. If there is some safety consideration involved, I'd say any insinuationi of being a hillbilly is less important than being safe.

Sounds like Rod Machado. He has a few of those. Another is a fellow that drawls "YXZ Ground, y'all hear how slow I talk?" "Yes" "Well, that is how slow I listen."

 

[John Baker]

If safety is an issue, take full command of your radio, no matter who you think you might be talking to. I've busted tower control as well as other pilots in the pattern. After two say again's, I carefully explain to them what they are doing wrong that is endangering my and other peoples flights. In every case, so far, except for one, it was talking way to fast.

Woman controllers seem to take the most offense at being corrected and will go to all sorts of lengths to try and retaliate, such as speaking excessively slow. I had that happen years ago at KSEE. I busted her chops again by explaining to her she was continuing to be a danger to the traffic in the pattern. I never heard her voice again. As soon as I buster her for being a smart ass, she was replaced.

Another time when I was out practicing steep turns, a couple of pilots from the Los Angeles area had completely taken over the plane to plane frequency that all students in this area use to report their intentions and locations. It is 122.75 it gets a lot of use.

These guys were flat out chatting with each other without allowing anyone to get on the air. It had been close to 45 minutes when I got my chance to explain to them what that frequency was used for locally. They were cooperative and immediately changed frequencies.

All of this I had done while being nothing more than a lowly nobody student pilot. I have to admit that 40 some years earlier I had been a forward observer in the military and was familiar to radio work.

To me, it is critical to make it very clear to anyone you are dealing with that they are making themselves understood. As far as I'm concerned, screw their sensitive little feelings. Airplanes are way too expensive to let them get all bent up because some hot shots mistakenly envision themselves as great professional radio operators.

Take command of your radio the same way you take command of your airplane.

-John

 

[jtheune]

If you don't training yourself to understand rapid communication that is often used in busy areas then be prepared for controllers to tell you to stay out of controlled airspace like B and in others to be vectored out of the way. Understanding "rapidspeak" is a skill just like any other you must practice and learn in order to fly a airplane into busy airspace.

 

[SCCutler]

I have found that, if I do not take care to ensure that I speak slowly and clearly, I don't. There is a real incentive to speak quickly, especially when the radio is very busy (busy class B, etc.), but you have to remember that something spoken very quickly and unintelligibly has to be repeated and, thus, is less efficient than speaking more slowly and clearly.

A simple request to "say again, more slowly" has always been met with exactly that result, and I have never received attitude from controllers when I have asked for this. They're professionals, doing an important job and (again, in my experience) just want to get it done right.

 

[John Baker]

If you don't training yourself to understand rapid communication that is often used in busy areas then be prepared for controllers to tell you to stay out of controlled airspace like B and in others to be vectored out of the way. Understanding "rapidspeak" is a skill just like any other you must practice and learn in order to fly a airplane into busy airspace.

Learn to understand and comprehend rapid speak? Your kidding, right? How about the rapid speaking "professionals" learning to be professionals instead?

Myself, I do not fly into B airspace simply because I do not want to mix it up with big iron. Should I ever decide to do such a thing, believe me, If I can not understand the controllers, I will ask them to vector me out, and I will explain why.

There is no reason whatsoever to speak unintelligibly on a radio, no matter who you believe yourself to be. I can not think of one reason for an airport that is providing radar separation to have to communicate in rapid speak. If you have separation, you have plenty of time to speak clearly.

These people engage in rapid speak because we allow them to do it. They work for us, they should be doing it our way.

-John

 

[Meliss]

That's kind of the same problem some controllers have...machine gun fire instructions.

IIRC, Richard Taylor's "Instrument Flying" has a short anecdote where the pilot asks the controller to "say again". The controller gives the same rapid fire words. Then the pilot does the old southern drawl "Say Approach, was that all something important" or some such.

About the only thing possible is to ask them to repeat, and if necessary directly ask them to repeat more slowly. Hoping and hinting probably won't work. If there is some safety consideration involved, I'd say any insinuationi of being a hillbilly is less important than being safe.

I had a traffic controller tell me once [this was on a tour- not on the radio] That he had a guy once ask him to repeat twice. Then, he said, REALLY slowly - "I listen about as fast as I talk."

 

[PW_Plack]

No, in my experience teaching other two-way radio operators if they can't hear themselves they just start yelling into the microphone...

...which would often be an improvement!

The only thing that works is the oft-repeated mantra of "speak in a normal speaking voice with the microphone at the corner of your mouth not in front of it". Then play them recordings of themselves later.

Recordings can be a GREAT tool, and they're relatively easy to make. There's nothing like listening to your own mistakes over and over to increase your resolve to improve.

The free Audacity recording/editing software can be set to start recording when audio is present and pause when it stops, which cuts out all the quiet time to make for more efficient playback. An old programmable police scanner radio with air band coverage can be used as the receiver feeding the computer's sound card.

Recordings made this way would be great during a student's debrief.

 

[John Baker]

A radio transmission from a controller or a pilot should be as clear and understandable as an ATIS report. Anything other than that needs correction.

-John

 

[cavmedic]

I chuckle when I hear auctioneers

 

[jtheune]

They are to people who are used to fast paced radio work. I guess the best analogy would be that that if you only drive on surface streets then your ill equipped to drive in a NASCAR race. Would you demand that all race cars only go 30 miles a hour so that everyone could drive with them?

 

[Skip Miller]

Learn to understand and comprehend rapid speak? Your kidding, right? How about the rapid speaking "professionals" learning to be professionals instead?

John, with no dis-respect intended, you need to find a way to listen to the last ORD approach controller before the planes are switched to Tower. It is mind boggling how busy that position is during the inbound push. It is not that he wants to speak so quickly, it is that he has to speak that quickly to get the information out to each plane separately, and then wait for the read-back. This position can't do read backs for many planes without falling way behind.

Some will say that is a fault of the system. It may be. But the fast talkers and fast listeners make it all work.

It'll give you a different perspective on why pilots and controllers speak quickly. Now should they slow down when they are working Podunk Tower? Yes, it would be nice if they did. However, any time you are PIC you should strive to bring your A game to the cockpit. And improve it!

-Skip

 

[Skip Miller]

A radio transmission from a controller or a pilot should be as clear and understandable as an ATIS report.

That is not a very high standard!

-Skip

 

[poadeleted20]

When you mention the barrel-like quality to DFW regional controllers, the typical answer is "we don't build it, we just have to use it."

True, but they don't have to swallow the mic. Most of the time, moving the mic half an inch further from the lips (out, not in) fixes that problem. As for controllers who seem to wish they were tobacco auctioneers, I've found that asking them to slow down a bit often helps, especially after two or three "say again?" requests. One time, at a military facility, I actually called the facility after landing and asked the facility superviser to review the tape -- without saying why I was asking that. The Senior Chief (that's an E-8 for you non-Navy types -- one step short of God) called back and said, "The kid talks too fast, doesn't he? I'll take care of that..."

As for pilots doing that, I'll leave that to the controllers to handle. Yeah, that can be a problem at a nontowered field, but sometimes a polite request to slow down helps. If the response is "why don't you listen faster" or something like that, I grit my teeth and remind myself that radio communication is optional at those fields.

 

[MBDiagMan]

When you mention the barrel-like quality to DFW regional controllers, the typical answer is "we don't build it, we just have to use it."

I've done Flight Following through DFW Bravo twice. The first time went like clockwork. The second time, when the controller responded to my flight following request, he did a machine gun mumbling that I couldn't understand. When I tried to get clarification he ID'd me as a rookie (correct, regardless of what led him to believe it) and vectored me on a tour of the East Dallas suburbs.

It's not always pilots that are not completely clear with the spoken word.

That said, this was the only time in my short experience with ATC communication that a controller ever spoke in such a way that I could not make out their words easily.