most challenging airfield

[woodstock]

what's the most challenging airfield you've flown into, and why? (surrounded by mountains, very short/soft, etc...)

for me I'd have to vote CYSE in BC. either that or 2W2 in MD.

CYSE - big dropoff in the middle, surrounded by mountains and trees. rollercoaster in.

2W2 is very short and narrow. 1800 feet long as I recall.

 

[ScottM]

what's the most challenging airfield you've flown into, and why? (surrounded by mountains, very short/soft, etc...)

6Y9, really!! Short, soft field with an obstacle

 

[JasonCT]

Have to love 1B3 in VT


1990 x 20 ft. / 607 x 6 m
Surface: gravel/dirt, in good conditionOperational restrictions: RY 02/20 SAFETY AREAS (ALL SIDES & BOTH ENDS) ARE RUTTED, UNEVEN & DO NOT CONFORM TO FAA SAFETY STANDARDS.RUNWAY 2 RUNWAY 20Traffic pattern: leftleftObstructions: 60 ft. trees, 182 ft. from runway, 169 ft. left of centerline, 3:1 slope to clear188 ft. hill, 1820 ft. from runway, 740 ft. right of centerline, 9:1 slope to clear

 

[poadeleted3]

WV12 in South Charleston, WV. It features a short, one way runway. This means you get good at tail wind takeoffs and landings. Even better, on take off the runway ends right at the edge of a 100 foot valley, with a hill right in front of the runway just across it. Close enough that a Skyhawk cannot always outclimb it on a hot summer day with a tailwind takeoff. You can fly around it to the left, but you cannot start your turn to early, because there is a hill just off your left wing tip. Timing is everything. On landing, you come right over the top of that hill, watching the trees, not the runway, until you are past them. The top of that hill is my go around point, past that point a successfull go around is a 50-50 proposition. I've seen one plane make it... another didn't. So... once I'm past that hill, I'm landing, no matter what else goes wrong. The plane may look kind of funny, but my passengers and I will survive. One more thing about landing. Don't forget the runway ends with a sudden dropoff. Don't land short!!! The airport is also invisible from the east, being hidden by the hill it's sitting on. Gotta know the landmarks. The dogleg looks interesting, but it actually turns out to be a non-factor.

It's my favorite airport of all time, run by great people and great friends. Lots of fun to be had there, they make everyone welcome. It's also the airport I soloed at which, since I'm hardly Chuck Yeager, means that any decently trained pilot should be able to operate a light GA plane in and out of there.

In the pics below, Mallory 1 shows your view on takeoff, Mallory 2 shows the other direction, of course. I didn't take these pics, btw, just snagged them off the internet. I really should bring some of my own in for my screensaver sometime

http://www.airnav.com/airport/WV12

 

[Henning]

what's the most challenging airfield you've flown into, and why? (surrounded by mountains, very short/soft, etc...)

for me I'd have to vote CYSE in BC. either that or 2W2 in MD.

CYSE - big dropoff in the middle, surrounded by mountains and trees. rollercoaster in.

2W2 is very short and narrow. 1800 feet long as I recall.

Seeding rice with an Ag Cat off a levee in LA. Had good length, but narrow, about twice the gear width.

 

[gprellwitz]

It's between three:
Milford Sound (NZMF)
2598' at the base of 5360' - 6380' mountains. Not really hard, but intimidating, especially because of the heavy sightseeing traffic.

Stewart Island -- Ryans Creek (NZRC)
2600' atop a bluff in a rainstorm. Took two pilots three attempts to get it down because of the squirly winds.

Prickett-Groom (6Y9)
2000' in a C182.

They were all fun, though!

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

This one (PIX) at Quatam River BC right after getting the PPL, now closed the last I heard, plus Idaho's Soldier Bar (both with nose wheeled, C172 & C205) and the Big Creek Four, all in Cessnas. Plus a dozen various ultra short river bars, tundra and ridge strips in Alaska, all less than 500 feet in length and often just a couple feet wider than the gear, but cheated on those by using Super Cubs and an Arctic Tern.

 

[EdFred]

6Y9, really!! Short, soft field with an obstacle

You had plenty of room! Honest. Don't worry, there will be more runway next year!

Mine was Mt Snow Vermont. Winds were 20+kts and the mountain to the west gave a bunch of swirls and turbulence. Only go around I've ever had to make when I had a perfect approach.

 

[ScottM]

You had plenty of room! Honest. Don't worry, there will be more runway next year!

Mine was Mt Snow Vermont. Winds were 20+kts and the mountain to the west gave a bunch of swirls and turbulence. Only go around I've ever had to make when I had a perfect approach.

The landing was not bad. But that take off was a bit interesting. I kept waiting to climb and could see the tree tops in my windscreen for what seemed like the longest time. I did enjoy watching the telephone pole by the school go under the wing!!

Even on my go around it just seemed like I was not climbing at all. Those were some big trees.

You guys were watching I suppose, did it look all that close??

I know watching a few of you guys give rides it looked a little interesting a couple of times.

 

[EdFred]

We can probably check out the videos - there were a lot of them being taken by Richard and Nick - but your departure takeoff you seemed to be above tree top level at the end of the runway, and those trees are another 300' beyond the end of the runway. Looked like you cleared them with plenty of room from my visual angle.

 

[SkyHog]

Most challenging field is either Lindrith, NM (E32) or Mountainair, NM (M10). Lindrith is at 7202ft elevation and is dirt, and is 3300ft long. On a hot day, this was probably a bad choice to make for a landing.

Mountainair was at 6492ft, and 2578ft long. But it wasn't really that long because there was much of the runway that was unusable due to ruts and stuff. I suspect that airport will be closed within a very short amount of time.

I suppose if we're counting takeoffs and not landings, then Crystal, MN (KMIC) is up there too. Only time I've ever taken off and wondered if I might have done something incredibly stupid. I'm still here, as is Jesse and Richard, so I must have done something right.

 

[555Juliet]

Sky Bryce in Virginia. *Finding* it (in the valley) is the first obstacle (for me). Then on final you have to zigzag to the left to avoid trees, then zigzag back over a golf course.

 

[jesse]

You guys were watching I suppose, did it look all that close??

I remember watching your takeoff specifically. It was not near as close as some other takeoffs.

Really-- It just takes getting used to the view of trees filling your windscreen as you build speed in ground effect. It's not near as bad as it looks from the ground or in the airplane I promise...

 

[ScottM]

I remember watching your takeoff specifically. It was not near as close as some other takeoffs.

Really-- It just takes getting used to the view of trees filling your windscreen as you build speed in ground effect. It's not near as bad as it looks from the ground or in the airplane I promise...

That is good to hear. I was thinking, after I had made it, just how you three were going to do it if I was that close.

 

[jesse]

That is good to hear. I was thinking, after I had made it, just how you three were going to do it if I was that close.

We didn't try it. It would have been *!very!*close . Nick and I flew out in his Cherokee and Ed Fred flew Richard out. We all went to KIMT and filled up on fuel for the trip home. No problem getting out of there.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The landing was not bad. But that take off was a bit interesting.

You've got that right. I think 6Y9 may be the hardest I've flown into as well. I really need to look at the IAS vs. CAS for that plane... I was climbing out of ground effect slightly below the white arc! But, I wasn't yanking the yoke back or anything, and it wasn't too mushy so I knew I wouldn't stall. It also didn't behave like it was behind the power curve.

However, the technique I had to use if there was anyone else in the plane was to start with a combined short/soft technique (flaps 20, stop to increase power, get the nose off, climb into ground effect) to get off the ground and accelerate in ground effect basically to the end of the runway and at the bottom of, or slightly below, the white arc until above the trees. Level out, accelerate, climb more, accelerate more, flaps up.

While it worked OK (and I was careful to keep it a good couple hundred pounds under gross), part of the reason it made me nervous was that there's a fairly long portion of the takeoff where you're completely screwed if anything goes wrong. To successfully abort a takeoff, I'd have had to pull power before the ASI was alive, as it wasn't coming alive until I was off the ground in ground effect. From about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down the runway, you have no options. You're too fast to abort successfully but there's nowhere else to go except the trees. From there, you're in the danger zone until you're high enough to at least glide to M-28, which would probably be at least 500 AGL.

I had one landing that was a little dicey too. I was actually a tad slow on the approach, but a little high. I pushed over to trade some altitude for airspeed and slipped a bit to keep from overdoing it, but somehow ended up with a fair amount of energy in the flare. Again, once something like that happens, you don't have too many options. By the time the plane told me it didn't want to quit flying, I don't know if I could have made a successful go-around - Those big barn door flaps don't retract very quickly (electric) and the plane does not like to climb at all when they're hanging all the way out. So, once I was committed to the landing I just had to ride it out. I probably touched the first time with 1200 feet or so remaining, but got kicked back up into ground effect. About 300 feet more until I touched down again. With hard braking and full aft elevator to try and improve traction, I was within a wingspan of the end of the runway before I came to a stop.

Maybe I'll head to Palmyra or Jana before the next trip to 6Y9 and practice my short grass field technique.

Bruce, I'm curious... Would you have made it out of 6Y9 on one?

 

[bbchien]

Bruce, I'm curious... Would you have made it out of 6Y9 on one?

Nope. No How. No Way.

 

[SCCutler]

Nope. No How. No Way.

This is where your unyielding commitment to first-class airplane maintenance pays off...

 

[wesleyj]

It was in the mountains of Peru, no town, no airport name, just a 450 long strip about 3000 feet up the side of a mountain, you came down a valley about 10 miles, made a right turn into the mountain, the strip was on a ledge with about a 10 percent uphill gradient, on the west end was mountain going up about 12,000 ft on the east end was a sheer drop of about 1500 feet. Always landed to the west with no chance for a go around, took off to the east over the valley.

 

[EdFred]

Guys, guys, guys. The key to landing on runway 28, is to get down early, and drag it in. Those trees to the east are not 50 feet tall. I come in just over the trees, and bleed off all my speed over the approach area. Keep a bit of power in, just like a soft field landing. My aim point is about 100' from the end of the runway. When I cross the end of the runway, the power goes away, and the last bit of float puts me down right at the 200' mark. Landing on 10 is a lot better when the wind is calm / south though isn't it Kent?

 

[jesse]

I didn't land there..nor did I take off there...So everything I am writing is completely out of my ass and should be sent directly to /dev/null..Although I do plan on landing there in a few weeks.

Like Ed said the landing really isn't all that bad..you just need to touch down at the start of the runway not way down the runway. The problem I think with airports like this is everyone has a habit of following the VASI's when they land at airports. Well if you always follow the VASIs how do you expect to get into an airport where you want to use every spare foot? I do every takeoff short field and every landing short field. It makes things much easier.

If anyone watched me land at Gastons I was down on the runway AS soon as possible. There was no float or waste of runway. The reason isn't because I was lucky or extremely talented..It's because that how I land everywhere.

Takeoff is a bit of another story. There is a phase in takeoff where if something goes wrong there is nothing you can do about it. You can't get stopped nor will you clear the trees. Basically what I'm saying is it is going to suck. But, will you live? I'm willing to bet if you deal with the situation and continue to fly the airplane you may. Those trees are extremely thick...If you can get OVER the intial tree line you can more or less just land on the top of the trees and possibly live. Just keep on flying.

What is the chance of losing an engine during that phase where you'd be going into the trees? I'm not sure. The best advice is to be flying a well maintained aircraft. Sump the hell out of your fuel (Ed actually sumped 5 gallons just incase .. )...Make sure you HAVE fuel.. Do a nice run up...and remember the fun you had at 6Y9 on your flight back.

 

[tonycondon]

The reason isn't because I was...extremely talented

I can confirm this.
First thing I thought when we touched down on Gaston's "grass" was that we had landed on a fairway of some golf course. And Jesse did manage a nice landing

 

[gprellwitz]

You've got that right. I think 6Y9 may be the hardest I've flown into as well. I really need to look at the IAS vs. CAS for that plane... I was climbing out of ground effect slightly below the white arc! But, I wasn't yanking the yoke back or anything, and it wasn't too mushy so I knew I wouldn't stall. It also didn't behave like it was behind the power curve.

However, the technique I had to use if there was anyone else in the plane was to start with a combined short/soft technique (flaps 20, stop to increase power, get the nose off, climb into ground effect) to get off the ground and accelerate in ground effect basically to the end of the runway and at the bottom of, or slightly below, the white arc until above the trees. Level out, accelerate, climb more, accelerate more, flaps up.

While it worked OK (and I was careful to keep it a good couple hundred pounds under gross), part of the reason it made me nervous was that there's a fairly long portion of the takeoff where you're completely screwed if anything goes wrong. To successfully abort a takeoff, I'd have had to pull power before the ASI was alive, as it wasn't coming alive until I was off the ground in ground effect. From about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down the runway, you have no options. You're too fast to abort successfully but there's nowhere else to go except the trees. From there, you're in the danger zone until you're high enough to at least glide to M-28, which would probably be at least 500 AGL.

I had one landing that was a little dicey too. I was actually a tad slow on the approach, but a little high. I pushed over to trade some altitude for airspeed and slipped a bit to keep from overdoing it, but somehow ended up with a fair amount of energy in the flare. Again, once something like that happens, you don't have too many options. By the time the plane told me it didn't want to quit flying, I don't know if I could have made a successful go-around - Those big barn door flaps don't retract very quickly (electric) and the plane does not like to climb at all when they're hanging all the way out. So, once I was committed to the landing I just had to ride it out. I probably touched the first time with 1200 feet or so remaining, but got kicked back up into ground effect. About 300 feet more until I touched down again. With hard braking and full aft elevator to try and improve traction, I was within a wingspan of the end of the runway before I came to a stop.

Yeah, I was a little worried for you on that landing.

I didn't find landings that difficult because I was taught the "drag it in" method that Ed refers to.

The take-offs, on the other hand, had me paying attention. My experiences were similar to yours. I had troubles getting into ground effect by the point I wanted, and wasn't feeling good about the chances of a successful abort at that point. (Successful would be stopping before the end of the runway, or at least before pranging metal.)

 

[ScottM]

Yeah, I was a little worried for you on that landing.

I didn't find landings that difficult because I was taught the "drag it in" method that Ed refers to.

The take-offs, on the other hand, had me paying attention. My experiences were similar to yours. I had troubles getting into ground effect by the point I wanted, and wasn't feeling good about the chances of a successful abort at that point. (Successful would be stopping before the end of the runway, or at least before pranging metal.)

I felt that way too. It was very interesting using that first 200 feet of runway. It was so slow and when you got past it onto the harder ground you finally felt like you were accelerating. But I really wanted to be ready to pull out of ground effect by the wind sock. But that did not happen and you certainly could not abort by then.

It felt slow and low on lift off and the trees gave one the feeling of a bad thing about to happen. But as Jesse said it looked much better from the ground.

I watched seeveral of your take offs and you were always pretty high before the end of the runway. It was the landings, yours, others, mine, etc. that when I watched from the ground wondered if people would be able to stop in time.

I did a go around on my first landing attempt. I had to abort my approach due to a UL cutting in front of me, on the next go I was just a little too fast and did not want to slip it down onto the grass as I did not really know how soft it was. So a go around was the best choice when I had not set it down. On third I did drag it in better and was stopped just past the wind sock.

But all in all it was a pretty good field. I had done a take off on grass in Florida with a C172RG and the ground was very soggy. I thought we would never get off the ground. But at least there it was nothing but open field after the runway. So I had room to abort. I think that is the biggest thing we all noticed. A real comit to take off point.

 

[EdFred]

Ah, you guys used the first 200'. I didn't. And I didn't sump off fuel for weight, Jesse. I sumped it off because I wanted Nick to have enough in his to get to IMT.

 

[jesse]

And I didn't sump off fuel for weight, Jesse. I sumped it off because I wanted Nick to have enough in his to get to IMT.

I was joking Ed. At least you didn't have to worry about water in the tank

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Like Ed said the landing really isn't all that bad..you just need to touch down at the start of the runway not way down the runway. The problem I think with airports like this is everyone has a habit of following the VASI's when they land at airports. Well if you always follow the VASIs how do you expect to get into an airport where you want to use every spare foot? I do every takeoff short field and every landing short field. It makes things much easier.

.

Natural VASI: The line of sight from the top of your airstrip's highest approach obstacle to the strip's touchdown threshold.

 

[EdFred]

Dave -

At some point you have to go above the "approach slope" because if you don't you're going to have trees in the wheels. I may actually just build one out of some plywood, and white and black paint.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Dave -

At some point you have to go above the "approach slope" because if you don't you're going to have trees in the wheels.

D'y'think?

I may actually just build one out of some plywood, and white and black paint.

Would you light it up, or just for daytime?

 

[gprellwitz]

Would you light it up, or just for daytime?

Since there are no runway lights, I don't see why he should bother lighting it up. 6Y9 at night!

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Dave -

At some point you have to go above the "approach slope" because if you don't you're going to have trees in the wheels. I may actually just build one out of some plywood, and white and black paint.

On the subject of home-made VASIs:

http://fmi.typepad.com/lwyp/2005/10/needs_vasi_plan.html

Oh, and from a technical standpoint, here's the US Patent documents for one, including drawings and specs:

http://tinyurl.com/ha9oy

And, I can't wait to see some videos from 6Y9!

 

[EdFred]

Since there are no runway lights, I don't see why he should bother lighting it up. 6Y9 at night!

I came in there a good solid hour maybe 90 minutes after sunset on Memorial Day. When it starts getting dark, everything goes black and white. The trees are dark, the grassy areas are light. Those of you that were up there, know that the only light area north of town is going to be the airstrip. Then again, I know the area VERY VERY well, so it was no big deal. Would I suggest anyone else do it? Nope. But for me it was no big deal. For my mom however, she was wiggin out! I just laughed. It really wasn't all that bad. I was stopped by the windsock.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Since there are no runway lights, I don't see why he should bother lighting it up. 6Y9 at night!

Depends on legal VFR conditions and PIC familiarity ultimately.

Any runway edge reflectors there? I've found them almost as good as RWY lights when lined up on final behind the beam of a decent landing light.

 

[EdFred]

Depends on legal VFR conditions and PIC familiarity ultimately.

Any runway edge reflectors there? I've found them almost as good as RWY lights when lined up on final behind the beam of a decent landing light.

Nope -

Just a feel for the area, and knowing that I should touch down, somewhere about.....oh............there. it's 100' wide, so it is really just aim for the center of the area, and you'll be fine. I'd do it again with no second thoughts.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Landing on 10 is a lot better when the wind is calm / south though isn't it Kent?

Oh heck yeah. Didn't even have to backtaxi when I landed that way. Trees are a bit higher that way I think, but the landing worked out quite well.

What would be nice is if you could get things cleared out on the east end all the way to the road, or just leave a few small (short) trees right along the road to keep the ground pounders off the runway, and then if the plane didn't perform well you could follow the road out a la Gaston's.

It also didn't seem like there were all that many trees between the runway and the clear area to the west either. And it looked like they're already logging to the west?

 

[EdFred]

We are going to clear everything out to the east like you said, but to the west we don't own any more property because there is a road there. And what looks like logging is just a staging area, for the trains to pick up the logs.

 

[One Short]

but to the west we don't own any more property because there is a road there.

Ed,
You need a conveniently timed straight line wind. You know, something that will snap off the trees about waist high. Those straight line winds, you'd almost swear some one came through with a chainsaw. Yup, that's the ticket.

Barb