More questions re: autogas

I don't expect condolences because the math doesn't work for me. But I resent it when it is implied that there is something wrong with me, sans any facts, because I don't follow along. If it works for you then good for you. I am not lazy and I am not a free spending idiot. But ...

timwinters said:
So, the math doesn't work for you, condolences. But for many of us it does, and our engines are happier for it.

100LL at my field = $5.25
MoGas at my field = $4.25
No ethanol, 93 octane on the street, at a station I drive by at least once a week anyway = $3.79
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Skylane81E said:
Did you move your plane Tim?
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Yeah, up to H88 (fredericktown). Got tired of the BS here. Especially the county highway dept's gravel operation w/i 200' of the hangars. The dust they created was becoming a real hazard to aviation.

Brand new hangars, full concrete floors, power bi-fold doors, $125/mo. :thumbsup:

It's farther away but, actually, I'm in the air quicker (in less than 50 minutes) because I don't have to wash the fricken airplane every time I want to fly.

JOhnH said:
I am not lazy and I am not a free spending idiot. But ...
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I don't think anyone suggested that of you. You seem to have extremely cheap AvGas combined with expensive MoGas. The math doesn't work for you so, if there's no reason your engine needs it for health, then there's absolutely no reason for you to do it.

I was just pointing out that for a lot of us the math is completely different and running MoGas saves substantial amounts of money and makes some engines happier.
 
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John, I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that your job doesn't include the ability to research?!@#$%^&*()



JOhnH said:
100ll at the airport: $4.99
93 octane non-E at a station 12 miles out of my way: $4.93
93 octane non-e at a station 23 miles out of my way: $4.63

36Cents/gallon savings; 1,000 gallons per year =$360/year
It will only take me 100 years to save enough for that engine rebuild, I I don't include the time and equipment necessary. And that is if I drive to the 46 miles round trip every time I fill up at home.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
I never had a problem finding mogas in Florida but then again I know how to google.

Shesh!
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Then find more than 2 places within 50 miles of Ormond Beach, or more than three airports int the State of Florida. Or find ANY places within 100 miles of Ormond Beach that sells mogas for less than $4.00.

Oh, and your limb has a rather large crack in it.

Now it's my turn to go out on a limb:
No, on second thought, I won't go there.
I just can't figure out what your problem is. If mogas fits your budget and time constraints, good for you. It doesn't fit mine. I didn't start this thread asking about the economics of mogas. I had a simple question: would it help address my high CHT problem. I have seen nothing that implies it would. And you somehow took offense to that. I even tried to apologize to you in a previous post, but I take it back. You don't deserve it.
 
Ill go out on a limb that John can't run mogas anyway as the TCDS for his engine specifies 100LL
 
Skylane81E said:
Ill go out on a limb that John can't run mogas anyway as the TCDS for his engine specifies 100LL
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There is that, but facts are not very important to some people that use google instead of their brain.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
John, I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that your job doesn't include the ability to research?!@#$%^&*()
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And you would be dead wrong...the limb broke.

I called the two stations near Daytona Beach the other day and was quoted exactly what John says their prices are.

He's stuck.

Why can't you accept that?

And, more importantly, why do you have to be a condescending ass about it?
 
timwinters said:
And you would be dead wrong...the limb broke.

I called the two stations near Daytona Beach the other day and was quoted exactly what John says their prices are.

He's stuck.

Why can't you accept that?

And, more importantly, why do you have to be a condescending ass about it?
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Thanks Tim.
Now, I would prefer to drop this subject.
 
couple of fallacies in this thread,
1 alcohol is not added at the refineries simply because it is corrosive and pipe line maintenance is very expensive. so it is put in at the other end.

automotive fuel is as bad for your valves as 100LL, 100LL will choke your valve guides, but can be reamed out, auto fuel collects as a very hard carbon on the valve stem, which wears the valve guide.

auto fuel is not the answer, just a different set of problems, take your choice.
 
Geico266 said:
We have 92 Octane mogas with no ethonal available locally.
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What I find ironic is the state where Geico lives is the largest producer of Corn and that is the base for Ethanol... And they have "( NO ETHANOL)" laced auto fuel available...:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad:

Only in America can that happen...:(:(
 
OK Nancy,

Its just going to be too difficult for you, like I said in my first post.

But then again you cannot use it anyway so its not even academic, so just like arguing with a woman.


JOhnH said:
Then find more than 2 places within 50 miles of Ormond Beach, or more than three airports int the State of Florida. Or find ANY places within 100 miles of Ormond Beach that sells mogas for less than $4.00.

Oh, and your limb has a rather large crack in it.

Now it's my turn to go out on a limb:
No, on second thought, I won't go there.
I just can't figure out what your problem is. If mogas fits your budget and time constraints, good for you. It doesn't fit mine. I didn't start this thread asking about the economics of mogas. I had a simple question: would it help address my high CHT problem. I have seen nothing that implies it would. And you somehow took offense to that. I even tried to apologize to you in a previous post, but I take it back. You don't deserve it.
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Thus we transition into MMO. :)

Tom-D said:
couple of fallacies in this thread,
1 alcohol is not added at the refineries simply because it is corrosive and pipe line maintenance is very expensive. so it is put in at the other end.

automotive fuel is as bad for your valves as 100LL, 100LL will choke your valve guides, but can be reamed out, auto fuel collects as a very hard carbon on the valve stem, which wears the valve guide.

auto fuel is not the answer, just a different set of problems, take your choice.
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Tim,

It doesn't matter to John since it is illegal for him to use it anyway.

But for anyone who wanted to use mogas and could use mogas it does not have to be on your airport, nor does it have to be on any airport. In the first 10 responses to this tread is a list of 300 gas stations in Florida with mogas. I found one 5.6 miles from his airport.

I agree it not worth the trouble if only saving 30 cents but that is usually not the case and not what we are talking about. I have family in Miami so I got to Fl quite a bit and their mogas is about $3.50 most visits lately but I do not recall avgas being much below $6 either.

Now-not talking about Nancy, Even if you were lost in some dry county that had no mogas, ok you cannot easily tanker it to your plane but we all fly $100 hamburger hops. Why not go get a hamburger, barbq or chicken at a stop that has mogas once in a while. It is not ideal but it is possible. There are mogas airports close enough to fill up and still have 4 hrs fuel when you get back to your home airport. If nothing else this buys that $10 hamburger.

My tone towards Nancy was set at the beginning of this thread and despite his statements I have not seen an acceptable apology.


timwinters said:
And you would be dead wrong...the limb broke.

I called the two stations near Daytona Beach the other day and was quoted exactly what John says their prices are.

He's stuck.

Why can't you accept that?

And, more importantly, why do you have to be a condescending ass about it?
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As of yesterday, we're in the process of setting up an autogas pump at the airport where I fly, near Reno, NV.

Avgas is currently $5.87.

The current estimate for autogas pricing is about $3.85, the same price as in town, so that means the fuel trailers here will end up not getting a lot of use.
 
SoloEqs said:
As of yesterday, we're in the process of setting up an autogas pump at the airport where I fly, near Reno, NV.

Avgas is currently $5.87.

The current estimate for autogas pricing is about $3.85, the same price as in town, so that means the fuel trailers here will end up not getting a lot of use.
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Exactly my point. Show me an area that truly does not have mogas and I will show you a business opportunity.
 
SoloEqs said:
As of yesterday, we're in the process of setting up an autogas pump at the airport where I fly, near Reno, NV.

Avgas is currently $5.87.

The current estimate for autogas pricing is about $3.85, the same price as in town, so that means the fuel trailers here will end up not getting a lot of use.
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I think that's what's going to shake out, operators at small airports with primarily small plane private GA will change to/ add MoGas, and larger airports with high power planes and small commercial operators will keep 100LL until a sufficient substitute fuel or Diesel engine comes on the market. I don't agree with the presumption that both aren't financially viable. With the costs of obtaining and operating skid mount self serve units, I think it actually is viable, especially if an airport 'CO-OP' puts it in letting transient profits pay dividends to the owners.
 
I've been in discussion with the owner of the airport I used to be based at about getting mogas on the field. It's a private owned, public use place, and he's got a 1500 gallon above ground tank in unincorporated county so there should be no hassles about fuel tanks, and berms, and vents, etc. The more local airport just had their fuel system refurbished at what started as a $18,000 project finished up costing well over $40k. The county and the city all required a bunch of safety stuff because of the lead. The in-ground tank would have been more than double that.

I'm hoping to get mogas at our little airport soon. I'd even like to put it in my cars without Eth.
 
docmirror said:
I've been in discussion with the owner of the airport I used to be based at about getting mogas on the field. It's a private owned, public use place, and he's got a 1500 gallon above ground tank in unincorporated county so there should be no hassles about fuel tanks, and berms, and vents, etc. The more local airport just had their fuel system refurbished at what started as a $18,000 project finished up costing well over $40k. The county and the city all required a bunch of safety stuff because of the lead. The in-ground tank would have been more than double that.

I'm hoping to get mogas at our little airport soon. I'd even like to put it in my cars without Eth.
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You'll get better gas mileage if you do.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Exactly my point. Show me an area that truly does not have mogas and I will show you a business opportunity.
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Not a very good one in some places. I'd love to see your calculations on the margin you'd make after paying the typical Airport Authority their cut, and the local and Federal agencies, not to mention leasing the land and building a "government approved" fueling facility on say, my Home airport, and what price you'd then have to sell MoGas at to make a profit.

They've already covered their bases and driving a fuel truck onto the field is against their rules.

Only way you'd ever do it is if you made sure a lot of pockets were lined. And you'd still have a battle from the multiple FBOs who do have permission to drive trucks and could be in competition with you or ESC other tomorrow if they so chose.

You'd spend a year going to County meetings and filling out forms. They'd file theirs with no meetings after you did the work, and have a tanker truck on the field competing 48 hours later.
 
N801BH said:
What I find ironic is the state where Geico lives is the largest producer of Corn and that is the base for Ethanol... And they have "( NO ETHANOL)" laced auto fuel available...:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad:

Only in America can that happen...:(:(
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Actually, couple of states (Illinois, Iowa?) produce more corn, but that doesn't really change your point.

It seems that the "No ethanol" fuel choices are going to be diminished. Some planes can use 87 octane, cant they? I read the 87 in the pipes is being replaced with 84 octane, they'll make up the difference with EtOH

http://journalstar.com/news/local/o...cle_58886924-e33a-531f-8993-fada55f7fa36.html
 
he may have mis-spoke on the state but his point is correct. All of us in major corn producing states can (ironically) find ethanol-free gas

Cap'n Jack said:
Actually, couple of states (Illinois, Iowa?) produce more corn, but that doesn't really change your point.

It seems that the "No ethanol" fuel choices are going to be diminished. Some planes can use 87 octane, cant they? I read the 87 in the pipes is being replaced with 84 octane, they'll make up the difference with EtOH

http://journalstar.com/news/local/o...cle_58886924-e33a-531f-8993-fada55f7fa36.html
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It must be the thin air Nate.

We have a guy who put a gas tank on our airport and 2 years later he now has 7 placed in tiny airports. He even gives $100 free fuel to every aircraft owner on the field to get them started using the self service fuel. In our case the municipally funded airport did not want to keep paying labor to keep gas attendants on the field 12 hrs a day. So they laid off two employees or more when they let the self service guy in.

So your assumptions right or wrong seem to be about one particular type of airport but then again that is the way you seem to role in this thread.



denverpilot said:
Not a very good one in some places. I'd love to see your calculations on the margin you'd make after paying the typical Airport Authority their cut, and the local and Federal agencies, not to mention leasing the land and building a "government approved" fueling facility on say, my Home airport, and what price you'd then have to sell MoGas at to make a profit.

They've already covered their bases and driving a fuel truck onto the field is against their rules.

Only way you'd ever do it is if you made sure a lot of pockets were lined. And you'd still have a battle from the multiple FBOs who do have permission to drive trucks and could be in competition with you or ESC other tomorrow if they so chose.

You'd spend a year going to County meetings and filling out forms. They'd file theirs with no meetings after you did the work, and have a tanker truck on the field competing 48 hours later.
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docmirror said:
I've been in discussion with the owner of the airport I used to be based at about getting mogas on the field. It's a private owned, public use place, and he's got a 1500 gallon above ground tank in unincorporated county so there should be no hassles about fuel tanks, and berms, and vents, etc. The more local airport just had their fuel system refurbished at what started as a $18,000 project finished up costing well over $40k. The county and the city all required a bunch of safety stuff because of the lead. The in-ground tank would have been more than double that.

I'm hoping to get mogas at our little airport soon. I'd even like to put it in my cars without Eth.
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We're not like Superslab International Airport down the way. Our fueling is done with a big tanker trailer and solar-powered filler pumps.

What we did was replace the one-big-tank trailer with a three-tank trailer. The big tank (half of the trailer) is 100LL, one of the smaller tanks will be autogas, and the center tank will be left alone for a while.

So, all we have to do is run another pump and hose, and we'll be all set! It's not a rush to get this done, but I'm figuring we'll have it pretty soon.
 
SoloEqs said:
We're not like Superslab International Airport down the way. Our fueling is done with a big tanker trailer and solar-powered filler pumps.

What we did was replace the one-big-tank trailer with a three-tank trailer. The big tank (half of the trailer) is 100LL, one of the smaller tanks will be autogas, and the center tank will be left alone for a while.

So, all we have to do is run another pump and hose, and we'll be all set! It's not a rush to get this done, but I'm figuring we'll have it pretty soon.
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Sounds good. I think the truck idea is good. That way it's always on the move.
 
timwinters said:
John,

You should be able to "build" a 100 tank and 20 GPM pump set-up for less than $500. If you don't own a pick-up then add another $200 for a small trailer.

http://www.ruralking.com/better-bui...&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CLmT8ZSKkbkCFahDMgodDFkAmw

And

http://www.factoryauthorizedoutlet.com/ir/troy-20gpm-heavy-duty-12-volt-fuel-transfer-pump
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I've built two fuel trucks since 1998. Ran over 12,000 gallons of mogas through them, saving something like $18000 in fuel costs.

That paid for the tank, the truck, and a whole lot of flying. Not to mention that all three of my planes ran way better on the stuff.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
It must be the thin air Nate.

We have a guy who put a gas tank on our airport and 2 years later he now has 7 placed in tiny airports. He even gives $100 free fuel to every aircraft owner on the field to get them started using the self service fuel. In our case the municipally funded airport did not want to keep paying labor to keep gas attendants on the field 12 hrs a day. So they laid off two employees or more when they let the self service guy in.

So your assumptions right or wrong seem to be about one particular type of airport but then again that is the way you seem to role in this thread.
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They're not assumptions, they're fact. When you base at one of the top ten GA airports in the country, everything surrounding that airport is all about money and politics. There's heavy competition between the multiple FBOs (most airports have what, one?) and they lobby their buddies on the Airport Authority to keep things status quo. Not judging it, just saying it's reality.

Your assertion that there's a business opportunity everywhere ... is all I took exception with. If there is such a grand business opportunity here, someone would already be doing it. In fact, it stands to reason that if the business opportunity existed at MOST airports, someone would already be doing it.

All sorts of simple questions that anyone looking to do a business out of MoGas have probably answered already and decided they won't make (enough of) a profit...

What's the typical fuel flowage at most tiny municipal airports? How many aircraft on the field have or are willing to get the MoGas STC? Will the MoGas keep in the tank that long? What's the delta in price from the local terminal for MoGas vs 100LL? What are my startup costs? Will the airport allow me to bring my trucks into the field and fuel airplanes? What goofy government regulations, taxes, fees, licenses, and equipment will I need? What's my liability for a spill? How much will insurance cost and where do I get it? Will the existing self-serve vendor just plop another tank down next to theirs and beat me at my own game? How much will the ground lease cost for my tanks? How much will the required spill prevention gear cost and how often will it need to be inspected?

All those questions and more. I'm sure someone has already answered all of those for KAPA and decided they wouldn't get enough return on their investment. But feel free to send your guy with 7 tanks our direction. He wants to beat his head against the brick wall of government and compete with multiple fuel-providing FBOs on the field, he's welcome to. I'd buy from him as long as his prices are lower than 100LL with based-aircraft discounts.

The FBOs at the bigger fields are in the exact opposite place on staff. They have to have line guys and gals for the bigwigs in the Corporate jets, so they don't mind having them running around fueling us little guys in-between ass-kissing (ahem: sorry, high-net-worth-customer-service) sessions complete with little red carpets to roll out near the air stairs. :)

The best place for your buddy to try to put in a MoGas tank around here would be KFTG. There's already one at KEIK which sometimes you hear rumors that they "haven't filled it lately" but it's always been there every time I've stopped in and topped off. I'll do that for a long trip, but it's not convenient to hop over there, really, with the bulk of the DEN Bravo in the way. The 100LL self serve at KFTG is already consistently the cheapest 100LL around, and usually beats everyone else. A MoGas tank/pump there would have to be really really cheap.

Murphey might comment, but KFTG politics is even stranger and less well-defined than KAPA politics. Kinda made up as they go along, to some extent. That airport attracts folks who want to run "the next big thing" in airports in CO, always trying to do big things... The UPS deal to try to do cargo out of there when DIA was built, putting in huge runways and a contract tower that basically had no purpose the day the city relented and put the Cargo ops at DIA on the south side on the main entrance road instead of the originally proposed north side somewhere near Wyoming... The never ending "space launch" propaganda, the latest drone test site craze... That airport is always trying, I'll give them that.

Someone wants to run the gauntlet and figure out how to put a MoGas tank on either KAPA or KFTG, we'd be there. I doubt with as many fingers are in each airport's pie, someone hasn't already attempted it on paper and decided it was a loser.
 
P.S. Any PoAers want to have real discussions with KAPA and run real numbers and they look at all favorable, I'd be an investor...
 
I think I'd go talk to the people down at Kelly air park and see what they feel about it. Lots of planes out of there can run mogas. I wouldn't do a ground lease, just buy a truck that takes 800-ish gallons and keep it on the truck and then to the plane.

The 'crats are just never going to allow a mogas pump at a big full service field, and that's why most of them are at small out of the way fields. However, Kelly is 23NM from KAPA and that's about 15 min flight for much of the mogas burning planes in the area.

I agree that there's a business opty avail somewhere on the SE side of Denver metro for mogas. I don't know where the dist are, but surely you could find a fuel dist within 40 miles that would fill the truck @ market price. Just pass along the taxes and fees and collect a little off the top. Down here, we're talking about getting a truck full for $3.66 gal all taxes paid, and selling it for $3.85. We aren't going to get rich, but we've got something we can advertise publicly that will be under the magic $4/gal price and for people flying around on a wknd, that might be worth a 15 min detour. I'm betting the same would be true in the Den area, but I'm not up there enough, so I won't be investing unless you can get Kelly air park on board.

The other thing we're looking at is buying the mogas with an 'off-highway' exemption, which will save about 38 cents/gallon. The sticky wicket about that is having a tax number which we can then charge the avgas fuel tax on. So far, we have no ruling that the avgas tax can be charged on mogas. And, in the absence of that, we could always apply to the feds and the state for a credit at the end of year for non-highway use on the fuel we sell and get the rebate. Cha-ching! Anything helps.
 
Everitt / Rocky Mountain Airpark (1CO8) is the place to do it, but they need to give up on the dream of grass on the runway, plow it under, and maintain it as dirt with gravel, or pave it. Takes too much water to keep grass alive and soft here.

9nm from the center of KAPA.

And there's always the private airfield liability and permission-required thing.

Not sure the residents want to be overrun with aircraft but if they did... A MoGas pump or truck and a flat runway and they would be.

2200' of very bumpy patchy grass clumps last time I was there. Nice place.

azy8y9as.jpg


http://www.rockymountainairpark.net/flightops.htm
 
Guys, you are complaining about a $ 1.50 diference, down here avgas is $ 7.80 pg vs Mogas Premium $ 4.20...

:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

Yes we use a lot of jerry cans....:yes::yes:
 
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Actually, a couple of months ago I posted some info regarding the use of mogas in Piper Aztecs in Haiti with no ill efects.

I talk to some of those pilots (they were doing charity work) and they told me that there is absolutely no difference in performance between mo gas and avgas on the Aztecs....

Any experience?
 
Cmercado said:
Actually, a couple of months ago I posted some info regarding the use of mogas in Piper Aztecs in Haiti with no ill efects.

I talk to some of those pilots (they were doing charity work) and they told me that there as absolutely no difference in performance between mo gas and avgas on the Aztecs....

Any experience?
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I ran mogas in an old Bonanza E-225 for years in hot TX with no ill effects. Lower temps and better economy. I'm working on a 8.5:1 C/R Lycoming this time.
 
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