More evidence of decline...

Old School so be it. If one or the other clients thinks Rich favored one or the otehr or stole components, he will lose far more that his service fee in attorney's fees.

America is SOooo broken. I posted about my getting sent to collection by Enterprise of N. Ilinois for the car I never took. So, at JVL on Friday I used Hertz. Today I got an automated call that I had the car for five days, what were my intentions.....it appears that the FBO, may have never called that I had returned the car...and the car is gone. I did manage to find the person, though.

The business model here, is "get the client's financial information and soak 'em, send 'em into collection".

So, now, I will simply do the next most economical option- leave a beater everywhere I go.

I used to think American business was the bedrock of our culture. Not so. It also is broken.

The good doctor brings up a very valid comment....................

Modern day business ethics has gone down the tubes at supersonic speeds..... For instance.... A good friend runs the FBO here, he is VERY hands on and looks at EVERY bill being presented to accounts payable to check for accuracy and fraud........ In the last few months he has noticed a HUGE increase in " questionable" charges and he investigates each one to confirm they are valid and on the level........ Especially credit card statements......

Seems the newest scam going is to run a charge through hoping the accounting office will just pay the charge without questioning the accuracy of it.... They assume some low level AP/AR clerk will just "cut a check" and I bet they get paid 99% of the time... They play the odds of NOT getting caught and are milking businesses out of ALOT of cash.....

DR Bruce has now been scammed by two name brand rental car companies and you can bet your a$$ this was NOT a accident..:(:(:(:mad2::mad:.

IMHO. YMMV...:redface:
 
The good doctor brings up a very valid comment....................

Modern day business ethics has gone down the tubes at supersonic speeds..... For instance.... A good friend runs the FBO here, he is VERY hands on and looks at EVERY bill being presented to accounts payable to check for accuracy and fraud........ In the last few months he has noticed a HUGE increase in " questionable" charges and he investigates each one to confirm they are valid and on the level........ Especially credit card statements......

Seems the newest scam going is to run a charge through hoping the accounting office will just pay the charge without questioning the accuracy of it.... They assume some low level AP/AR clerk will just "cut a check" and I bet they get paid 99% of the time... They play the odds of NOT getting caught and are milking businesses out of ALOT of cash.....

DR Bruce has now been scammed by two name brand rental car companies and you can bet your a$$ this was NOT a accident..:(:(:(:mad2::mad:.

IMHO. YMMV...:redface:

Ok, I gotta call time out on this, and Bruce as well. It's been since the dawn of the first coin of the realm that fraudulent billing has been going on. Does the credit card make it maybe easier to get duped? Quite possibly! Most of the common fraud on ancient times was from internal graft, which actually became quite common, and one of the reasons why bookkeepers(only base word in English with triple double letters) were paid so poorly. It was expected that they would keep a little of a transaction for themselves. In fact the term 'clip job' comes from the old method of using a small knife to snip off a piece of a coin. Really, the tort system has been around since the writing of the code of Hammurabi. Maybe they paid off in goats, or beans, but they had to pay off. The end of that internal stuff came with the advent of double entry accounting methods.

I've run several small business. It's rare for a small business to be run on the basis of lawsuit avoidance. That may not be true of the medical profession which has become a specific target for theft by tort, but by and large, most small businesses avoid lawsuits rather easily. By being honest! Of course, if one of the OPs clients thinks he stole proprietary info and sold it, they can take it to court. Proof of a fraud is damn hard, and has a serious high standard of proof. What's more, given that lawyers only work for money, they have to have a pot at the end of the rainbow. Many sole proprietors don't carry much in the way of recovery assets. Houses, cars, furniture, and even jewelry is exempt from collection actions.

I've been a landlord for almost 30 years. In all that time, in a very litigious state, I've been to court a total of 5 times. I won 3, tied 1 and the one I lost was more costly to defend when I lived in TX than it was to go fight it. If I'm doing something wrong, I should worry about being sued. If I or the OP isn't doing something wrong, then don't worry about it.

I rent cars literally 2-3 times a week for 15 years. I'm pretty good at it. Aside from one billing error by Avis in Houston and one try by Enterprise to jack up the rate I've never had a problem. I think it's because the vendor knows that I check on my bills, and I check on the cars I rent being checked back in. Even if I have to make 3 or 4 phone calls to the place that's on the contract, I KNOW the status within 12 hours of returning a car. Always, every time.

The OP is good at what he does. If his client thinks he can have the service exclusively, then they should pay for that advantage. If it were me, I'd go to the client tomorrow and tell them that Gina at XYZ has expressed an interest in my services. If that's going to be a problem, then sit down and discuss parameters. They may terminate his contract on the spot, and if they do, then his expertise will go to the competition. Stupid clients deserve to lose money.
 
Her request was a compliment to you. She sees her competitor as being more successful because of the quality of their website. I do not know what type of business she runs, but if her business is dying and is not internet based I would bet it is more than the website. While I think I disagree with your ethical argument I applaud your loyalty to your clients. That is admirable and I would suggest is not as common as you believe. I think your honesty and loyalty will possibly increase your business and this client lost may bring in a huge number of clients by word of mouth. In my profession, a large number of my collegues get their referrals by advertising in all medias available. I have built up my business solely by word of mouth. If I do a good job I will see more. That is how I was trained and still feel very strongly about it. Likewise, your business will build up because you not only do a good job, but are loyal to your client base.
 
I respect your position to conduct your business according to whatever values you hold dear.

I am utterly baffled by your over-the-top reaction to someone approaching you to engage you in business.

Must contractors avoid construction jobs for companies that compete against previous clients? Must dressmakers avoid making business attire for competitors of previous clients? Must a mechanic not service Avis fleet vehicles if he also has a contract to maintain Hertz cars?

Why judge the lady so harshly?

And the "you can't have morals and ethics without religion" assertion is patently false. Conversely, history shines a bright beacon on countless immoral and unethical acts conducted in the name of religion.

They then project this schema onto others, even to the extent of not even considering that there may be others who neither share nor endorse their self-centered world view.
Might want to take a look in the mirror and say that one more time.
 
Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate the feedback.

I can follow all the arguments from those who differ from me regarding my take on working for competing clients, and I won't argue that they don't make sense, because they do. But in the end, it just doesn't feel right to me. This particular client is a fairly big one (roughly $22K/year), but I feel the same way about smaller ones. My feeling is that they deserve my unencumbered loyalty to their companies.

Pretty subjective, for sure. But the value of a good night's sleep isn't easily quantified.

Thanks again.

-Rich
 
I respect your position to conduct your business according to whatever values you hold dear.

I am utterly baffled by your over-the-top reaction to someone approaching you to engage you in business.

Must contractors avoid construction jobs for companies that compete against previous clients? Must dressmakers avoid making business attire for competitors of previous clients? Must a mechanic not service Avis fleet vehicles if he also has a contract to maintain Hertz cars?

Why judge the lady so harshly?

And the "you can't have morals and ethics without religion" assertion is patently false. Conversely, history shines a bright beacon on countless immoral and unethical acts conducted in the name of religion.

Might want to take a look in the mirror and say that one more time.

I think part of the problem is that I assumed that she knew how deeply involved I remain in managing my clients' online presences after the sites are built. I live in my world, after all, so that's pretty obvious to me. But it's unfair to assume that others understand that -- especially since plenty of Web professionals don't do anything except collect their pay once a site is built.

Thanks.

-Rich
 
Ok, I gotta call time out on this, and Bruce as well. It's been since the dawn of the first coin of the realm that fraudulent billing has been going on. Does the credit card make it maybe easier to get duped? Quite possibly! .....
I rent cars literally 2-3 times a week for 15 years. I'm pretty good at it. Aside from one billing error by Avis in Houston and one try by Enterprise to jack up the rate I've never had a problem. ...
..and my now corrected invoice from Hertz of Janesville.

The problem is they consume time. Both of these Bozo companies together have consumed about 10 hours together. Now, I known I'm no longer worth $250/hr, but I'm still worth 40% of that. And that's a lot of time blown on these bozos. Makes a year of beater depreciation worth it.

They are now both gone. ON to the nationwide limo companies, I think, or to my old modus of leaving cars at places I go, with solargizers on the batteries.....

BAD business models.
 

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Wow, 10 hours for keeping track of billing? I do this all the time and it's prolly taken me 20-30 minutes. It may take a bit longer if I find a problem, but once I do, I rarely have any more issues.
 
Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate the feedback.

I can follow all the arguments from those who differ from me regarding my take on working for competing clients, and I won't argue that they don't make sense, because they do. But in the end, it just doesn't feel right to me. This particular client is a fairly big one (roughly $22K/year), but I feel the same way about smaller ones. My feeling is that they deserve my unencumbered loyalty to their companies.

Pretty subjective, for sure. But the value of a good night's sleep isn't easily quantified.

Thanks again.

-Rich

And you are a better, more honorable man for it. :D
 
Wow, 10 hours for keeping track of billing? I do this all the time and it's prolly taken me 20-30 minutes. It may take a bit longer if I find a problem, but once I do, I rarely have any more issues.
No, eight hours to get the company to get me out of collection. Ever been in collections, doc? It's pretty merciless. They won't even tell you what the collection is over or the source. I had to track down who the company was (they won't identify that, either). Then I had to track down the Executives at both Signature and Enterprise (Signature gave enterprise my identity from my accout there), and guess what, the Enterprise guy was not apologetic. Doped out who the collection agnecy was by a phone number back trace. Got the Signature exec to beat on the Enterprise exec to check out "my claim" that "I never had the car" (the Enterprise guy said, "oh you took the car, you just never signed the contract") and the Signature logs to show I had never been there.

That takes time, docmirror. Time. Hope you never get sent to collection.

Next step was my attorney, it would have been easier to just pay 'em $60 something and be done; she's $210 /hour..

At least Hertz figured it out by the end of today. AFTER TWO CALLS in the middle of seeing airmen.
 
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I don't see the issue either. In my industry, our customers are often also our competitors and suppliers. Occasionally all 3 in the same deal.
 
Rich: I'm in the apparently very small camp that would have done what you did, although I may not have thought ill of her for asking....just take it as a compliment. But loyalty is a quickly fading commodity. I think you did the right thing for the relationship with a significant client.
 
Rich: I'm in the apparently very small camp that would have done what you did, although I may not have thought ill of her for asking....just take it as a compliment. But loyalty is a quickly fading commodity. I think you did the right thing for the relationship with a significant client.

Thanks. What wasn't right, however, was my judgmental attitude toward Gina.

That's somewhat uncharacteristic of me, too. I think it may have had something to do with the project I'm working on. It's not really complex so much as tedious, but because I have a lull in the action right now, I've been banging away at it pretty much nonstop for a couple of days -- aided by much espresso.

What I'm building is a free stock photo site, with with a download cart and a zip function, as well as some interesting visual effects. I'm trying to do it without using any JavaScript at all, mainly because I don't like JS very much.

I'm hand-coding the whole site, the databases, and all the PHP scripts from scratch as an refresher exercise, and relying heavily on CSS3, which means the inevitable hair-pulling to try to get it to work across browsers... that sort of joy. The databases, cart, galleries, etc. are all done. It's mainly the design elements that are giving me fits, mainly in IE, which doesn't support CSS3 very well in IE 9, which is still widely used.

The basic purpose of the site is to upload some of my own less-than-wonderful pictures that were rejected by the stock companies I deal with. I figure I'll give them away for free and hope people click some ads while they're looking around.

But I'm mainly doing it as a refresher exercise in PHP and CSS3. I've written so much code that I rarely have need for something that I haven't already written for someone else, so I usually just copy and tweak. Long story short, I'm getting lazy; so the site I'm working on now will be completely hand-coded and fresh.

Thanks,

-Rich
 
What woud be wrong with, "I'll pay you more to work for me instead of my competitor"?
 
What woud be wrong with, "I'll pay you more to work for me instead of my competitor"?

Nothing inherently. I left a couple of jobs for more money before I went on my own. But on the other hand, I also turned down a couple of jobs that offered more money because I felt a sense of loyalty to the company I was working for and a desire to grow with it.

But I don't like being too mercenary, especially being semi-retired as I am. There's a lot of gratification in watching, and helping, a company grow; especially when it's a new company or a company that's just establishing itself online.

-Rich
 
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