Mooney M20M Bravo

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Ernesto Castro, Mar 23, 2021.

  1. Ernesto Castro

    Ernesto Castro Filing Flight Plan

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    Hey all! How are you?

    I'm quite new in the flying community, got my PPL in 12/2020.

    I'm starting to look for airplanes to by, looking for a good XC plane. Basically being able to get 700nm range with a descent speed.

    I was looking at a range of planes, such as Piper Arrow, Saratoga, Cessna 210, etc.

    Then I came acroos Mooney M20M Bravo and now I'm confused. They are relatively cheap compared with Saratoga's or 210's, they are faster, and they consume less fuel (15GPH @ 75% cruise!).

    What's the catch? Is hard to believe there is a solution "good, cheap and fast" all in the same!
     
  2. Cluemeister

    Cluemeister Line Up and Wait

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  3. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Administrator Management Council Member

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  4. Ernesto Castro

    Ernesto Castro Filing Flight Plan

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    No bullying, please! Lol, is a legitimate question!
     
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  5. LevelWing

    LevelWing Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Mooney Bravo's are fast, that's for sure. They are turbo'd so be careful on the maintenance if you aren't familiar already. The catch is useful load/payload; you won't be getting much of it. Usually less than 1,000lbs and it depends on which configuration you get. If you get AC and/or TKS, it'll be less. Mooneys in general aren't known for their useful loads.

    How many people and how much luggage do you plan to bring with you and how often do you plan to make these 700nm range trips? The best performance will be in the O2 levels, so take that into consideration as well.

    Check out http://www.mooneyspace.com for all things Mooney related.
     
  6. LevelWing

    LevelWing Pre-takeoff checklist

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    He's going to tell you that an M20C is the "best bang for your buck in general aviation." :)
     
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  7. Ernesto Castro

    Ernesto Castro Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanks LevelWing! I saw that about the useful load, anyway I'm planning on doing trips with my girlfriend for the weekend, so it is not a big issue. The idea is to have a plane for doing one weekend trip per month. I live in Houston, and possible trips are Santa Fe, Denver, Destin, etc.

    Also I heard that Mooneys are relative cheap to maintain, at least compared with Bonanzas, etc.
     
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  8. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You won't get bullied Ernesto, but keep your skin thick. Great question, I'm watching this too. I love Mooneys.
     
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  9. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    you bully!
     
  10. LevelWing

    LevelWing Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This is a good mission for the Mooney. If you plan to fly regularly into airports that have high density altitudes in the hotter months, the turbo will help alleviate the associated performance reductions.

    This, like with any other plane, is often times relative. I've had really good luck with mine, but it has excellent bones and I take care of her. A thorough pre-buy is highly recommended but know that with a turbo comes additional maintenance.
     
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  11. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    For you Mooney guys, how is part availability?
     
  12. LevelWing

    LevelWing Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I've never had any issues getting parts for mine outside of a rare one-off case. The factory is open and producing parts and the MooneySpace community is very active with a lot of knowledgeable people who know who to talk to and where to get parts if your local shop can't for some reason. Even for the older fleet, like mine, finding parts hasn't been overly difficult.
     
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  13. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Question - is it an M20 Bravo or a M20B? The Bravo is the fast modern turbo charged airplane. The B is the 1961 model and an all metal version of the A. They only made 222 of them.

    The Bravo is a 200k airplane unless it’s partial ownership, damaged, missing logs, etc. I would expect the B to be under 50, but I cannot remember the last time I saw one for sale.
     
  14. Ernesto Castro

    Ernesto Castro Filing Flight Plan

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  15. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

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    The thread title says M20M...so presumably the former.:)
     
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  16. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    Check out prop and engine 2 time (STOH) , 100 hours....that tells me it probably suffered a prop strike.
    Which explains why its cheap.
     
  17. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    It’s priced right for a bravo, not cheap. Its fairly common to overhaul prop at the same time as the engine, so I’m not sure how you are taking a positive (fresh overhaul) and turning it into a negative.
     
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  18. LevelWing

    LevelWing Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If it was repaired correctly and has all of the documentation and logs, I wouldn't necessarily automatically say no to a plane with a prop strike unless it's a personal requirement (no damage history).

    I'm not speaking for @MooneyDriver78, but I don't think it's necessarily a negative. The prop being overhauled and the engine having a top overhaul at 100 hours would at least make me curious as to why it was done.

    The link he posted doesn't show a Bravo for me so I can't see it. Are the logs attached to the listing?
     
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  19. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    From ad:

    TIO-540-AF1B (Bravo Conversion)
    ~100 hrs STOH 6 new OEM Lycoming cylinders (temps stabilized,no leaks)
    ~450 SMOH (runs strong)
    No issues

    Why new cylinders and prop after 350 hours?

    Logs available on request, but I don’t think you have to say why you did maintenance, just what you did.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
  20. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    I’d ask some questions, read the logs, but you wouldn’t do a top overhaul for a prop strike.
     
  21. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Mooneys are airplanes, just like any other, and they have their issues. That said, I've had this one for 13 years now and I'm totally pleased with the robustness and reliability of the aircraft. This one is a keeper.

    We've had no issues with parts availability, but to be honest, we really haven't needed all that much. It just doesn't break much.
     
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  22. Greg Ellis

    Greg Ellis Filing Flight Plan

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    Devil's advocate here....You are a newly minted pilot (12/2020). How many hours do you have? This is a lot of airplane for a new pilot. Lots of complex systems to control (big engine, turbo, fast, retractable gear, etc...etc...) I am not saying you can't do it. There have been lots of pilots who transition from their private to a fast, complex airplane and do just fine. I would have a discussion with your insurance agent prior to moving forward and just see what the insurance premium would be for you and an airplane like this.

    This is a cross country plane. Designed to fly high and fast. I would recommend you also getting your instrument rating as soon as you can. You will find your flight completion rate to be better if you can handle the changes in weather along a long cross country flight. Not to mention that this airplane can get you above FL180 which you will need your instrument rating for anyways. To truly take advantage of an airplane like this, you need to utilize the turbo which really shows it's true colors when you fly high.

    As far as the airplane itself goes, well, a lot of good advice has already been given. Good luck with your quest to find your perfect airplane.
     
  23. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    It wouldn't be correct to do a top overhaul for a prop strike. That doesn't mean someone didn't do it. But there are people who believe overhauls aren't required for prop strikes and others who think you need one if you hit a blade of grass. Regardless, the question of prop strike is supposition.

    The "why TOH at 350 hrs" question needs to be asked, but otherwise I don't think the price is completely out of line. It also looks like a private seller, so there's no broker fee that he has to pay out.

    Higher price than I want to pay.
     
  24. A1Topgun

    A1Topgun Cleared for Takeoff

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    Some people find the Mooney cockpit a little tight, especially if you are big (over 6 feet - 210 lbs). Get you maintenance done at a Mooney savvy shop. If you check accident/incident data bases you might note Mooney's have a large number of "gear up - gear fail" landings. Easy remedy, the Mooney savvy shop that knows the gear retract mechanism adjustment SEQUENCE. If the adjustment sequence is followed on every annual, which it should, there is no problem. Also, consider an O2 system so you can go high.
     
  25. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    not sure why you say that, they both seem to fit your requirements. question, have u sat in or flown either?
     
  26. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Those 'togas look like sweet airplanes.
     
  27. Ernesto Castro

    Ernesto Castro Filing Flight Plan

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    That's a completely valid point and I make it to myself also. What makes me think of going in this direction is that I want to start doing my instrument rating right away (I've already learned most of the theoretical part) and I want to build up the XC time in my airplane, as part of doing weekend trips. I also thought of going much in simpler airplanes, maybe a Warrior, but that limits the places I can get too (range and speed).

    So the idea is trying to merge my instrument rating XC requeriments and doing weekend trips for fun, instead of spending 10k on renting a plane to do "local" XC just for the instrument rating.

    I haven't. And I do know they both fit my requirement, although it seems (at least what I could find) that Mooney is faster, has better range, and is less fuel hungry, and is either at the same price or cheaper than a Saratoga. That's why I said is a no brainer, but I didn't say to disqualified the Saratoga. As was already mentioned, one point in favor of the Saratoga is he useful load.

    Hey, BTW, great enthusiasm and answers! Is a great welcome for my first post! I do appreciate everyones comment!!!!
     
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  28. genna

    genna Pattern Altitude

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    As others said, I would recommend you at least sit in a Mooney. Their ergonomics are different and don't fit everyone well. I was interested in one until I sat in it. And interior dimension numbers do not tell the whole story. Otherwise, it does sound like it fits your mission quite well. There is a non-turbo Ovation if you don't want to fly high and deal with a turbo. No idea what those cost
     
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  29. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    This is true, and I believe the cabin width is from the widest point.

    Height isn’t the issue, MS has 1 owner that’s 6’9”.

    It’s shoulder room and low seating position.

    If you can stagger the seats you’ll have plenty of shoulder room.

    But the low sports car seating position you’ll either love it or hate it.
     
  30. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    It will take quite a bit of transition time to get you up to speed in that much airplane. You'll need both complex and high performance endorsements. Also, your initial insurance bills will be eye-watering. Moreover, the aircraft is well nigh useless without the instrument rating. You can't use the turbo to get into the flight levels where the aircraft really shines without the IR. Indeed, I'd count on getting the IR as the first thing you do after you get signed off on the aircraft. All that said, it is doable. The long body Mooneys have useful load problems, but leave some fuel behind and you get lots of useful load. Some those things carry 100 gallons of gas. The autopilot is very old in the tooth, but if it works alls good. Nice thing is I think the Bravos qualify for the new Garmin autopilots, mine doesn't.

    I completely agree with those saying to sit in one. They aren't for everyone.
     
  31. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel En-Route

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    That's a high performance retract with $100k+ hull value and you're a recently minted private pilot (I assume no Instrument rating). You might want to get some insurance quotes before you get too far into the tire kicking process. The rates may surprise you.
     
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  32. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    I would not be surprised if some simply said “not interested”.

    In addition to your IR, better start thinking about a hangar. No hangar will drive up the insurance costs. And who wants to park a $170,000 plane outside?
     
  33. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Very true, but assuming you continue your plans to get the IR and get time in type, that will come down substantially the next year.
     
  34. genna

    genna Pattern Altitude

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    My specific issue was actually me being short. To reach the pedals I had to be so close to the panel that it was uncomfortable and quite claustrophobic. Though I understand that this can be mitigated with pedal "extenders". Also, can be something you get used to, I guess.
     
  35. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    I installed the pedal extensions and it makes a vast difference.
     
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  36. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach Gone West

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    +1 The question of a prop strike is supposition, and a "top overhaul" (whatever that might mean) isn't required.

    But if it has had a prop strike, given it's Lycoming powered, there is a comprehensive mandatory service bulletin so I would suspect most sensible mechanics planning to sign off on the IRAN after a prop strike are going to avoid material deviations from it.

    https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SB533C Recommended Action for sudden Engine Stoppage, Propeller_Rotor Strike or Loss of Propeller_Rotor Blade or Ti (1).pdf
     
  37. genna

    genna Pattern Altitude

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    Do you have a link or a picture of these extensions. I looked for them one time but couldn't master my googling.
     
  38. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    All I have are the engineering drawings. I took a couple of pics with my phone...

    2021-03-24 13.01.34.jpg 2021-03-24 13.01.41.jpg
     
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  39. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Cylinders and valves. You don't break the case open, it's just the things on top of the case. It is not an officially defined term.
     
  40. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    Can you inspect the crankshaft with the cylinders removed?